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  1. #51
    Senior Member ahultin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Tour De Palm springs is about as flat as it gets. Of course, like any ride, it has some climbing (6 mile with 700 ft 4% grade). Easy if you do some hill work, killer if you don't. Rolling hills on Dillon Rd, again, easy if you do the work, killer if you dont.

    .
    How is the weather in palm springs in February? Given the weight my scale seems to think i lost this weekend, I am certain I was WAY dehydrated even with 250oz of water, 32oz gatorade and 32oz water/nuun which is attribute to the heat and lack of shade.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Mithrandir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil_B View Post
    Will you take it from me then? Mr. Beanz is correct. The biggest improvement in my riding came when I no longer feared climbing. I'm not very good at it, and may never be, but I'll do it.
    I don't fear it. I actually fear the descents more than the climbs, which is why whenever I head south into the hills, I take the steeper grades up and the smaller grades down.

    I don't particularly enjoy it at my current weight. My heart begins undergoing PVC's whenever I do too much of it. One time I almost puked after taking on a cat 5. As a formerly sedentary person, I need to enjoy exercise or guess what, I'm going to end up giving up and going back to my old habits.

    That said, I'm increasing my climbing at a rate that I feel comfortable with. I've been cycling for 4 months. Only 3 of which I was even aware of altitude.

    July - 516 miles, 8123 ft - 15.74ft/mi - 0 categorized climbs
    August - 450 miles, 8699ft - 19.33ft/mi - 1 category 5 climb
    September - 482 miles, 9936ft - 20.61ft/mi - 2 category 5 climbs, separate rides.

    Septembers' relative lack of increase in climbing compared to August is due to the increased amount of commuting I've done (roughly doubled). If you compare only the recreational rides the climbing increased significantly again.

    October - at least 3 category 5 climbs planned... all on the same ride so far.


    My exception with Beanz is the tone he took. He's trying to tear me down. All my life I've been torn down by people like him, and I won't stand for it anymore. I am genuinely proud of something I've done for the first time in a very long time, and he just comes roaring out of the gate with "First off, no it did not work for you". Well too bad, it did work for me. I'm happy. I'm on too much of a roll to be put down by someone with years of experience under his belt and weighs 120+ pounds less than me. My speed is 4mph faster than it was (despite his prediction that I will never get any faster if I don't do things his way), I can do metrics without taking a break.

    It's utterly ridiculous, in a sport where people say they can't even imagine climbing a hill with 5 extra pounds, that someone would honestly tell a newbie that weighs 350 that they're wimps who aren't making any progress. Bugger that.

  3. #53
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    My exception with Beanz is the tone he took. He's trying to tear me down. All my life I've been torn down by people like him, and I won't stand for it anymore. I am genuinely proud of something I've done for the first time in a very long time, and he just comes roaring out of the gate with "First off, no it did not work for you". Well too bad, it did work for me. I'm happy. I'm on too much of a roll to be put down by someone with years of experience under his belt and weighs 120+ pounds less than me. My speed is 4mph faster than it was (despite his prediction that I will never get any faster if I don't do things his way), I can do metrics without taking a break.

    It's utterly ridiculous, in a sport where people say they can't even imagine climbing a hill with 5 extra pounds, that someone would honestly tell a newbie that weighs 350 that they're wimps who aren't making any progress. Bugger that.
    I don't think he's trying to tear you down at all. First of all, he can only respond to what you wrote. He's not following your entire history. Perhaps he could have worded the post differently, but some people are more blunt than others.

    Secondly, his advice on this topic, in general, is sound. The most frequent complaint I read and hear from posters on Clydes is about hills. Yes, they are tough. They are tougher on guys like us than on guys like Beanz. But still, they remain in front of us. Gotta get over the hills, and the fear of hills. You are doing it. Beanz just wants to help.

    You are correct you have a LOT to be proud of. I'm sure people who know you well would say they are proud of you too. Heck if I knew you personally I'd say I was proud of you. As it stands I can only admire and contain my jealousy.

    BTW, I too spent most of my life being torn down by other people. Trust me, Beanz isn't a tearer-down. He's a builder-up. He's mentioned me in this thread. I'm the fat guy who limps and according to some people here can't even ride a bike 'correctly.' Do you think he'd bother complimenting me if he were into crushing souls?

    If you want to talk more privately, feel free to PM me.

  4. #54
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeepseahawk View Post
    Damn it Beanz, I was going to use my heart medication excuse for GMR next time you asked. It really isn't about pride with me, it's about me being straight-up scared of GMR.
    Haha! There is no reason to be scared of GMR when you ride with cool guys like Hillbasher and I. Believe me, we don't make an one race or struggle to keep up.

  5. #55
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil_B View Post
    I don't think he's trying to tear you down at all. First of all, he can only respond to what you wrote. He's not following your entire history. Perhaps he could have worded the post differently, but some people are more blunt than others.

    Secondly, his advice on this topic, in general, is sound. The most frequent complaint I read and hear from posters on Clydes is about hills. Yes, they are tough. They are tougher on guys like us than on guys like Beanz. But still, they remain in front of us. Gotta get over the hills, and the fear of hills. You are doing it. Beanz just wants to help.

    Exactly true! Some people just try to justify why they can't instead of setting their minds to doing!

    Some people think they are the only ones that suffer because they weigh more, not true!

    I truly think it's silly to think "poor me, I suffer more than you". So somebody that weighs 100 lbs won't climb as fast or as far. But someone weighing less doing 5 times the climbing and maybe 3 times faster didn't suffer to get there, or on the ride itself?

    Someone weighing 220 didn't suffer on a 5,000 ft climb while climbing faster than a training partner that is 80 lbs less?

    Someone that weighs 260 and does a century in 4:45 didn't suffer to stay in the group with the skinny guys?

    Alyce that has never climbed and more of a disadvantage than 95% of the men on this board didn't suffer climbing GMR?

    Neil didn't suffer when he broke his ribs and continued his ride?

    TomBunn that pulled over and puked his guts out in front of me and 2 other women 4 mile up GMR didn't suffer?

    Homey didn't suffer when he crashed on the FC508 (508 miles), got stitches and completed the race on behalf of his team?

    Ok, so next, someone will say the Lance didn't suffer throughout his training. He didn't suffer on the mountain stages in the TDF? Or that he didn't suffer the entire race? Yeah he won it easily because he only weighs 150.

    Everybody suffers the same! It's just that some will ride faster and some will make excuses.

  6. #56
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahultin View Post
    How is the weather in palm springs in February? Given the weight my scale seems to think i lost this weekend, I am certain I was WAY dehydrated even with 250oz of water, 32oz gatorade and 32oz water/nuun which is attribute to the heat and lack of shade.
    Actually pretty nice! Not hot at all. Usually dark and cool at the start then to warm but mostly overcast. Done it 4 times and never been hot.

    You will love the fashion show though ( 1000's of super high end tricked out bikes).

  7. #57
    Senior Member ahultin's Avatar
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    "I will not go quietly into the night!" I will not vanish without a fight!"

    So, Tour de Palm Springs in February http://tourdepalmsprings.com/
    or
    Tour De Tuscon in November http://www.pbaa.com/!ETT/ETThome.html

  8. #58
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Neil didn't suffer when he broke his ribs and continued his ride?
    That was ignorance. I didn't know I'd broken a rib. Had I known I'd have stopped.

  9. #59
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahultin View Post
    "I will not go quietly into the night!" I will not vanish without a fight!"

    So, Tour de Palm Springs in February http://tourdepalmsprings.com/
    or
    Tour De Tuscon in November http://www.pbaa.com/!ETT/ETThome.html

    Ya know, I did tour De Tucson as one of my first centuries back in 98 (?).....EXCELLENT ride!

    Police escorts at every intersection for 111 miles. No need to stop other than a couple of river crossings (dry when I did it). Out in the middle of nowhere, gangs of scouts and good looking chicks cheeering for you as you ride by. I was lone on the climb up Tangerine so I had this "you're cheering for me?" look on my face.

    Excellent experience! Only 2000 riders when I did it, sure it's way big now. I'd do it again but 7 hours of driving (14 rt), maybe someday as my daughter lives in Chandler.

    I liked it so much I did the Casa Grande ride too. Same experience but on a much smaller scale. First one hundered riders in got a gold medal so I kicked arse on that ride.

    I fit were me, I'd go Tucson if you can afford it. But better look for a room now if it aint too late.

    My gold medal.


  10. #60
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil_B View Post
    Will you take it from me then? Mr. Beanz is correct. The biggest improvement in my riding came when I no longer feared climbing. I'm not very good at it, and may never be, but I'll do it.

    Oh, and Sayre Kulp was riding up Reading's Mount Penn when he was close to your weight - and riding a 70 pound trike. Photo from the observation platform at the Pagoda.
    Sayre Kulp is young. Also, depending on the gearing of the trike, trikes can go up hills very slowly as you will not fall over.

    Anyway, Mirth has said he does do hill work.

  11. #61
    Senior Member ahultin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Ya know, I did tour De Tucson as one of my first centuries back in 98 (?).....EXCELLENT ride!

    Police escorts at every intersection for 111 miles. No need to stop other than a couple of river crossings (dry when I did it). Out in the middle of nowhere, gangs of scouts and good looking chicks cheeering for you as you ride by. I was lone on the climb up Tangerine so I had this "you're cheering for me?" look on my face.

    Excellent experience! Only 2000 riders when I did it, sure it's way big now. I'd do it again but 7 hours of driving (14 rt), maybe someday as my daughter lives in Chandler.

    I liked it so much I did the Casa Grande ride too. Same experience but on a much smaller scale. First one hundered riders in got a gold medal so I kicked arse on that ride.

    I fit were me, I'd go Tucson if you can afford it. But better look for a room now if it aint too late.

    My gold medal.

    I have a buddy who lives in Maricopa so i'd just make a mini vacation out of it. Looks to be about a 2 hr drive or less from his house so i could stay with him.
    Looks to be around the 4000 foot range and while i didnt know it at the time I was near the top when I bowed out of the perris ride.

  12. #62
    2nd Amendment Cyclist RichardGlover's Avatar
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    Gearing. Your current setup is a 53/39 and a 11-28 rear cassette?

    Running a 39-28 you have 37.3 Gear Inches - that is, you move forward 37.3 inches for every turn of the cranks.

    If you switch to a compact up front (34T, for 34-28), you go down to 32.5 GI, a 14.7% change - significant.

    If you switch to an 11-32 or 12-32 cassette (for 39-32), you go down to a 32.6 GI - nearly the same change.

    If you switch BOTH - compact crank up front and a 11-32 or 12-32 cassette in the rear, you go down to 28.4 GI, for a total change of 31.3%. That is a gigantic change in your gearing - you'd be able to spin @ 80 RPM instead of 60 to go the same 6.75mph (as a point of reference), which will save your knees & muscles a lot of pain.

    The downside of going compact up front with an 11T or 12T small cog in the back is that you'll spin out on downhills at lower speeds. A 53-11 will spin out (for me, around 120rpm) at 46.0 mph. A 53-12 tops out at 43.4mph. A 50-11 tops out at 42.2mph, while a 50-12 'only' gets you 39.8mph.

    Now... I've spun my pedals faster on straight downhills, but not by much; pedaling at that point is mostly wasted energy due to the fact that the energy required to counteract wind resistance is an exponential formula (but going fast IS fun... so sometimes I burn the energy anyway). For me, I'd rather be able to pedal up the hill than go a couple MPH faster on the downside.

    Long distance, 'do everything but commute' bike I'm building uses the 50/34, 12-32 combo. Can't wait to ride it. (OMG... last part I need is in the mail; I'll be busy this month putting it all together).
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Actually pretty nice! Not hot at all. Usually dark and cool at the start then to warm but mostly overcast. Done it 4 times and never been hot.

    You will love the fashion show though ( 1000's of super high end tricked out bikes).
    I've heard nasty things about wind, though. ??

    KeS

  14. #64
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahultin View Post
    Looks to be around the 4000 foot range and while i didnt know it at the time I was near the top when I bowed out of the perris ride.
    The benefits of hill training on long consistent climbs. You don't need to be fast, but you learn how to recoup on the climb and how to use the short flat sections wisely which in return, saves that little extra energy you need to crest the top.

    Plus, early on in the ride, save that energy on flat and downhill section. Don't make the Clyde mistake of burning energy on down hills when you should be recouping for the late climbs. I've seen to many Clydes race downhill then later say, "I dropped you on the climb" only to find they have zero energy for the later climbs.

    Also, don't charge out of the gates a the start. Waste of energy. Warm up into the ride, finish strong. Gina and I did a century through Perris. Riverside Market Street Park to Perris, around Elsinore, then Tom's Farm, up Cojalco to Lake Mathews then back to Riverside. Everybody blasted out of the gate, we were 2nd to last at the first check point at Perris Lake of 40 riders. We worked into the ride. After Perris we went through Winchester and along Ramona Hwy/78 (?) By the time we finished, we were about the tenth out of the 40 It's better to pace than to race off the line. Let them go, you'll see them later.....It was called the Tour De Cure 5 Lake Challenge, a diabetes fund raiser.

  15. #65
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    mr b: how are you recovering on the climbs?

    Its either my lungs give out or I cant give it enough power anymore and thats with maxing out all my gears.

  16. #66
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    It's utterly ridiculous, in a sport where people say they can't even imagine climbing a hill with 5 extra pounds, that someone would honestly tell a newbie that weighs 350 that they're wimps who aren't making any progress. Bugger that.
    I have no dog in this fight, but on this I emphatically agree. I'm 6'3" and 205 lbs. Weight-wise, I barely qualify as a Clyde. I'm still too big a rider to be a true climber, but I go up pretty quick, and I've done a few 100-mile sportives with in excess of 10000 feet of climbing. The thought of going up those hills with another 50lbs on my carcass, let alone another 150, is daunting. My hat is off to those of you who tackle it, you're to be admired.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  17. #67
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chefisaac View Post
    mr b: how are you recovering on the climbs?

    Its either my lungs give out or I cant give it enough power anymore and thats with maxing out all my gears.
    Well, it's the training and gains in fitness that allow you to recover on a climb. You are strong enough and fit enough so that you can slow the pace and relax your breathing. You make these kinds of gains and improvements while training on the climbs. That's why I so strongly suggest Clydes attack the climbs. Not attack at high speeds but attack as in keep trying, come back next week and try again. Don't wuss out, it hurts but try it again attacks.

    I can recover climbing because I've done the work. If I struggle, I slow my pace and concentrate on breathing. If I hit a short 30 yard flat section, I ease the pace to recover rather than sprint on the easy section. It makes a difference in the end.

    Now if you are a weak climber, you won't understand what I am saying because all your effort will be trying to keep yourself upright. The only way to lose the weak in your climbing is to attack long climbs. You will get stronger, more fit and you will understand. If you live your life avoiding the hills you will never see that gain and believe me, its a BIG gain and advantage!

    As an example I will use Gina. If we don't climb for some time she loses the advantage. She's struggling so I tell her to back of half a step and relax, control her breathing. She says she can't. Why? Because her fitness is down and if she slow the pedals, she comes to a stop.

    Now after 3 or 4 times of making the climb/trying the climb/working at the climb...she does much better. Her pedal stroke is so much smoother, body is relaxed. If she starts to struggle I tell he to back off half a step and she does while still maintaining her forward movement. She';; be the first to tell you ,working on the climbs is a plus. When we are done, I always point out to her how much smoother her stroke is and how much more relaxed she is when we practice the climbs. She agrees then goes down to the flats and kicks butt.

    Now I say above "climb/trying the climb/working at the climb" because not all of us always make the climb. It's the effort that builds the strength and fitness. If you do a mile then have to stop to rest, do so. But get back on and do some more. Go as far as you can because you will roll back down the hill when you are done. Once you get to the bottom, you will tell yourself you wussed out because you know that you could do more.

    Once you build up to doing a 3 or 4 mile climb, then do a longer climb. You will gain the fitness I mention that allows you to recover on the climb. If you never do it, never have done it, then you will never know what I am talking about. Once you get to this point, you will tell others why they should invest in climbing. Gina used to hate the climbs (40 yard sections of the trail). Now when I talk about climbing to our buds, she sits there and shakes her head, Yup, yup, yup! Because it works. If a rider avoids this, then he only cheats himself to what he can really achieve as far as riding.
    Last edited by Mr. Beanz; 10-04-11 at 02:11 PM.

  18. #68
    Senior Member FR4NCH1SE's Avatar
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    You did not fail, you gained experience, now you know what to expect. Train harder, work harder and one day, and the day will come. You will get 100 miles and thats all that matters. Success also comes with difficulties, don't let a bad experience turn you down. Just keep pedaling.
    "Every Man Dies, Not Every Man Really Lives".

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    mr. B: Thinking about doing a day of just climbing. Flat wjere I live but can find a couple of hills. Would it work to ride up, then down, then up, etc again? Anything in the gym I can do to help climbing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    I don't fear it. I actually fear the descents more than the climbs, which is why whenever I head south into the hills, I take the steeper grades up and the smaller grades down.
    This is fairly sensible. Keep in mind Beanz is dealing with the Sierras, and you're dealing with the Appalachians. Your genuinely steep grades can and will exceed 15%. Beanz has to look hard to find a 10%. And I can assure you, you will brake the whole way down on 15% if you don't want to bust 35mph. It takes bike handling skill to handle high speeds, and those high speeds are dangerous. (I grew up in Central PA, so the hills in Western NY are not all that different from what I am used to) Use your brakes inappropriately on a steep downhill, and you will melt them. So you've got a good store of common sense. Keep using it.

    This doesn't make you a wimp. It makes you sane.

    The PVC thing is also due to the grade difference. If your body is feeding you that sort of thing, slow down. Walk if you need to. Right now I'd black out or vomit if I tried to ride up the hill I grew up on... I am just not strong enough to climb it (walk it, sure. don't wait for me. I'll be a while.). However, I know from experience that if I try to get up the hideous 15% grade every couple days over a summer, my body will adjust. It may involve walking up the damn hill 45 times, but I'll do what it takes. And swapping to the switchback route that takes the grades down into the 5% range... my body adjusts faster.

    For me, the main reason why I bother to climb is I like to go fast. But... I hate doing formal intervals. HATE. I cannot make myself do 'em. And I am not naturally a strong rider. Pushing even 50 gear inches is a real achievement for me. So the only way I get to go fast is down a hill. And mostly, the only way to go down a hill is to ride up it first. And yes, I am totally ok with braking as needed on downhills to keep my speed in ranges I can handle.

  21. #71
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chefisaac View Post
    mr. B: Thinking about doing a day of just climbing. Flat wjere I live but can find a couple of hills. Would it work to ride up, then down, then up, etc again? Anything in the gym I can do to help climbing?
    Yup, that would be know as hill repeats. Depending on the length of the hill, you can us different tactics. One to two miles, jsut ride up, lift the pace when you feel you can after you are familiar with the course.

    If it's a 1/4 mile- 1/2 mile, do a few warm up then bust your hump up in race mode like intervals. Relax on the way down to recoup. Heck, you can never get too tired to make it back cause you just roll back to the start.

    I bet you do them till you think you're done. Then you change your mind after the final climb and say ok, one more!

    I do it al the time with my mtb course. One loop 5 miles 2 1/2 miles good climbing. At the top I think I'm done but by the bottom, I start to feel like I'm cheating if I don't do a second. You can hear hikers in my last video asking, "you're going a gain?". Yup, not about being fantastic, it's about wanting it and knowing you can.

  22. #72
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torrilin View Post
    This is fairly sensible. Keep in mind Beanz is dealing with the Sierras, and you're dealing with the Appalachians. Your genuinely steep grades can and will exceed 15%. Beanz has to look hard to find a 10%.
    Sorry, we aren't talking about who has the steepest grades here, we're talking about planning a 70 mile course with 2000 ft in order to avoid the hills. But I will add a 45 mph descent is uncommon here.

    My point is that it more beneficial to plan a shorter ride with climbing rather than doing long distances without any climbs once you are able to do a good distance if you plan to get better at climbing which is the fail point of the OP that brought up the subject. Suggesting 65 mile rides with 900 feet is not beneficial to the OP and I hardly doubt there are 15% gades in there.

    Common sense say that because the OP failed at the climbing portion of the ride, that my advice of doing some hill work is good advice. Common sense says Mith's advice of avoiding hills isn't if the OP plans to get over the obstacle that kept him from completing the "average" ride mentioned in the OP.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I went through this once before with another poster

    The Appalachians

    The highest of the group is Mount Mitchell in North Carolina at 6,684 feet (2,037 m), which is the highest point in the United States east of the Mississippi River.

    The road we ride on Big Bear:

    Onyx Summit is a mountain pass located in the San Bernardino Mountains in the southwestern part of San Bernardino County, California, USA. At an elevation of 8,443 ft. (2,573 m), it is the highest highway pass in Southern California.


    The Sierras
    The Sierra rise to almost 14,000 feet (4,300 m) with Mount Humphreys near Bishop, California. Finally, near Independence, Mount Whitney is at 14,505 feet (4,421 m), the highest point in the contiguous United States.


    Something tells me that when we regularly hit 40-45 mph, the road is a little more to think about than a road that worries you at 35 mph.


    Baldy Rd, 3 miles from home. yeah, I have to look hard for 10+ grades.

    Grades are mentioned in the first minute or two (Garmin readings).

    Now that you mention steep stuff, first video 9 miles 2600 ft and 2nd video 14 miles 5000 ft (the final stretch is 15%).




    Last edited by Mr. Beanz; 10-04-11 at 05:51 PM.

  23. #73
    Senior Member ahultin's Avatar
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    I'll have to make a point one of these weekends to take Beanz up on his open GMR invite and see just how slow up that beast he can tolerate

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    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahultin View Post
    I'll have to make a point one of these weekends to take Beanz up on his open GMR invite and see just how slow up that beast he can tolerate
    I climb it with Gina. Actually Gina does well on a good day. On a bad day, she can make it just not as easily.

    But if you really want to do it, we got a cool little group. Gina, Alyce & Herb, and Hillbasher. None of us ever ride with aggression on friendly rides. I just about guarantee you that if you do the 8 mile climb, you will want to do the next 6 as well with all the motivation and encouragement. You can do the 70, you can do this climb! None of us ever sweat it when another rider calls for a break, believe me.

    But I must warn you, there have been other riders that sweat the thought of the ride then end up leaving us far behind.

  25. #75
    Council of the Elders billydonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    I've learned that I need to approximately double every figure MMR gives in terms of climb. It's usually much more accurate that way.
    +1... and unless you are familiar with the route always, always take more gearing than you think you will need. This report sounds like a miscalculation of gearing to me.

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