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  1. #26
    Senior Member Chaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravity Aided View Post
    Dennis Coello, who wrote the book "Touring on Two Wheels" 1988-Nick Lyons Books- p 107- states that " muscles weigh about 5 times as much as fat." . I'd say maybe you should ask the doctor about a nutritionist visit and a Body Mass Index test. That way, you'll know if there is a problem. You'll alsoprobably hear what to do about it. Or, you may just be muscular....
    I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to say or not . . . http://www.onemorebite-weightloss.co...le-to-fat.html

  2. #27
    Senior Member Gravity Aided's Avatar
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    Much better explanation, and a good article. I was just going by what the book stated. Coello devotes an entire chapter to diet and nutrition, pretty good for a book on bike touring. Also a bit dated . Still stand by what I say about Doctor, nutritionist visit, BMI. Nobody sees you like your doctor sees you, thank God. Turn your head, and cough.

  3. #28
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    More excuses. More justification for staying the same.

    The simple fact, from my reading, Raydog, is that you are riding all the time in heart rate zones that don't allow you to burn the fat you have stored on your body.

    It's something I repeat time and again, but all the "experts" on this forum, who ironically are themselves overweight, keep coming up with "heavy frame", "lower metabolism", "BMI measurements are inaccurate", and the newest one, "you'll have to be obssessed to keep the weight off".

    Think about doing this, Raydog. Go for some rides that don't include the fast pack, and keep your heart rate (you do use an HRM, don't you?) between 100 and 120bpm. Ride as long as you like (the longer the better). You can ride up hills, but use low gears and spin easily and keep your HR down.

    You don't necessarily have to eat anything, but keep well hydrated with water.

    The essence of this style of riding is that you are taking energy from your adipose stores, not directly from your liver.

    The way you are riding at the moment, I can almost guarantee that you are riding at a very elevated heart rate, probably for less than two hours, and consuming food along the way to "sustain" you throught the ride.

    So, effectively, you are riding on the glycogen stored in your liver (which is enough to sustain your for about... you guessed it... two hours). With the top-up food on the bike, you aren't altering the balance at all.

    And, equally as essentially, watch your diet at other times. Cycling and exercise is not panacea for losing weight, but combining with sensible eating (portion control particularly plus removal of alcohol intake) the weight will come off.
    +1.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
    Utter nonsense, that's exactly what alot of bodies are engineered to do. Look at the genetics at play in many families, same eating habits, it's undeniable.
    I think you misunderstand the word "designed", since we are saying pretty much the same thing. No one has a body type that is better off carrying 40 pounds of extra fat.

  5. #30
    Senior Member camelopardalis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    More excuses. More justification for staying the same.
    +1

    I can't believe how many people would simply advise to accept things the way they are. Sounds to me like a very defeatist attitude. Please check this link. It is not that complicated. I'm not saying it's easy though.

    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...n-Calories-Out

  6. #31
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    . . .

    It's something I repeat time and again, but all the "experts" on this forum, who ironically are themselves overweight, keep coming up with "heavy frame", "lower metabolism", "BMI measurements are inaccurate", and the newest one, "you'll have to be obssessed to keep the weight off".
    I am the one who says you have to be obsessed.

    I also have lost all the weight I need to lose.

    Every bit of research I have read indicates to me that to keep the weight off once you lose it requires nothing short of obsession. Tracking what you eat. Weighing yourself. Exercising more than most people exercise. So if you want to diss what I say, back it up.

  7. #32
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    I am the one who says you have to be obsessed.

    I also have lost all the weight I need to lose.

    Every bit of research I have read indicates to me that to keep the weight off once you lose it requires nothing short of obsession. Tracking what you eat. Weighing yourself. Exercising more than most people exercise. So if you want to diss what I say, back it up.
    "Obsession" is your description of what many people consider "normal behavior." That's telling.

  8. #33
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    I am the one who says you have to be obsessed.

    I also have lost all the weight I need to lose.

    Every bit of research I have read indicates to me that to keep the weight off once you lose it requires nothing short of obsession. Tracking what you eat. Weighing yourself. Exercising more than most people exercise. So if you want to diss what I say, back it up.
    "Normal" behavior - women checking their breasts on a monthly basis for abnormalities. Skin self exams for people with a family history of skin cancer. Regular medical screenings.

    "Obsession" - "Tracking what you eat. Weighing yourself. Exercising more than most people exercise."

    Have I got this right, Goldfinch?

  9. #34
    Watching and waiting. jethro56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil_B View Post

    "Obsession" - "Tracking what you eat. Weighing yourself. Exercising more than most people exercise."

    Let me get this straight. This "Obsession" it's a bad thing????

  10. #35
    Senior Member raydog's Avatar
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    Well gee folks, I do know that, although I am quite strong and have great endurance, I am carrying around 40 extra pounds. I see guys my height and think, "he's a pretty big guy". Then I ask what he weighs and the answer is 180 pounds, about 40 less than me! I used to weigh 270 and got to 220 with minimal mods to my diet and maximal participation in bicycling, I see no reason that I can't bust off another 20-30 and be happy. I do know that I will never be really satisfied until I find out what it's like to have a 33 inch waist like when I was a Marine in 1969!

  11. #36
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jethro56 View Post
    Let me get this straight. This "Obsession" it's a bad thing????
    Right. It isn't. It is like what elite athletes do. They have a compelling and single-minded preoccupation to push their bodies to places that are not be the norm for them. Those who lose weight and keep it off are also pushing their bodies to places that is not the norm for them. Given that most people regain their weight obsession with keeping it off is a good thing.

  12. #37
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    Right. It isn't. It is like what elite athletes do. They have a compelling and single-minded preoccupation to push their bodies to places that are not be the norm for them. Those who lose weight and keep it off are also pushing their bodies to places that is not the norm for them. Given that most people regain their weight obsession with keeping it off is a good thing.
    "Those who lose weight and keep it off are also pushing their bodies to places that is not the norm for them."

    I was wondering when fat acceptance language would show up.

  13. #38
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    There does almost seem to be a subversive element within the forum that tries to reinforce the concept that weight loss is far more complicated than it really needs to be.

    That is all.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  14. #39
    Bulky Bullet Sayre Kulp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil_B View Post
    "Those who lose weight and keep it off are also pushing their bodies to places that is not the norm for them."

    I was wondering when fat acceptance language would show up.
    That's not "fat acceptance language". It's a fair statement. If someone is overweight, then that is their "norm." For them to lose weight, it does in fact mean they must adopt a lifestyle that is not that "norm." That being said, one would hope that this new lifestyle is a sustainable one that becomes the new "norm."

    Beyond that - I think that if your normal behaviour does not include regular monitoring of your diet, weight checks, doctor visits, exercise programs, etc - then to take on these additional responsibilites would certainly seem like a new obsession. That may not be my first choice of words, but I get the point goldfinch is trying to make.
    "Obstacles don't like me very much. I make them look bad."

  15. #40
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    There does almost seem to be a subversive element within the forum that tries to reinforce the concept that weight loss is far more complicated than it really needs to be.

    That is all.
    I question whether I fit the culture of this subforum.

  16. #41
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    I question whether I fit the culture of this subforum.
    I don't think there's a culture here.

  17. #42
    Neil_B
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    There does almost seem to be a subversive element within the forum that tries to reinforce the concept that weight loss is far more complicated than it really needs to be.

    That is all.
    I think that's a trait on Bike Forums in general. I had no idea riding a bike was as complicated as it was until I came here. :-)

    As for weight loss, its inevitable that whenever people meet to discuss the topic someone will bring up excuses on why they, or other people, can't do it. For example, Goldfinch's twist on the old "set point" claim NAAFA used to haul out.

  18. #43
    Bulky Bullet Sayre Kulp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil_B View Post
    As for weight loss, its inevitable that whenever people meet to discuss the topic someone will bring up excuses on why they, or other people, can't do it. For example, Goldfinch's twist on the old "set point" claim NAAFA used to haul out.
    Unless I missed something, Goldfinch basically just said that weight loss is difficult and requires pushing beyond what most people are accustomed to to achieve. She also didn't make any excuses and clearly has managed to lose the weight she needed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    I also have lost all the weight I need to lose.
    Meanwhile, I don't understand the negative attitude over people who are satisfied being slightly overweight. It's all about what works for the individual. I'm pretty comfortable being overweight. I may outweigh the average road cyclist by 100 pounds or so, but I can also bench more than that guy weighs. It's kind of up to me to make that decision.
    "Obstacles don't like me very much. I make them look bad."

  19. #44
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    wow a lot of trends in this thread..... my 2 cents

    BMI, etc are guidlines based on statistics from a broad population.....there is a lot of variance based in individual. Point in case 22 years ago, I was in really good shape, doing triathalons, had close to a six pack at 185 pounds. I am 6 feet so at 185 my BMI was at that time 25.1 or overweight which I clearly was not. That doesent mean ignore BMI but it is not fact for any one individual

    One of my doctors had a really simple test.... he had me try to wrap my thumb and index finger around my wrist (not the same hand ) I can't do it, I have a gap of about one inch. His take was that I had the infamous big bones and that 200 lbs would be good target weight..... so it might worth trying.

    No matter what, the bottom line is that in order to lose weight you need to have a slight deficit between callories in and calories out in order to lose weight. roughly between 500 -1000 calories a day. the catch is that is you reduce the calories in too much, your body reacts and works harder to retain the weight. '

    To maintain a consistent weight calories in and out have to balance.

    Simple, but not easy or I would be back at 185

    This why "diets" don't work, in that diet implies something extrodinary that is not something you can live with forever. If a person stops the diet and reverts back to old eating and exercise patterns the weight comes back.

    It might be semantics but "life style change" is what works long term based on all long term success. another way to look at this is concisous consistency in eating, thinking about what your are eating and eating right most of the time. to me it a life style change is thinking about grabbing the bag of chips with my healthy turkey sandwich, instead just grabbing one.

    food tracking is a way to educate your self as to where your problem areas are...... I find my problem is bits and bites of this and that in the kitchen during the evening and this was identified via food tracking. also it gives me better awareness of choices. I think that after a few months of tracking/education i won't need to track, but it is helping me now. Is this obsession?..... i don't think so, it is tool to use for now or as long as i need.

    Peolple are not designed to be fat. Just look at your old family pictures........

    There is no question that the US is more obese than ever....and some of that is because of processed food and even flavors. check out the 60 minute segment from last week http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...in;contentBody

    So what can you do? eat well, minimize processed foods and exercise......


    here is what I am doing if it is of any help or interest (many here have lost more weight this is what I am doing to be one of them)


    I am at 270 now (max of 285) what happened? Marriage, kid, job change, hitting 35 and 50, not making exercise a priority, bad knees...the usual. People change with age at 35 my metabolism clicked into a slower mode. When I was 185 I was running 300 days a year and swimming a couple days a week and riding 2-3 times a week. I drank a lot more beer then..

    What am i doing about it?

    I have started tracking food.... use livestrong. it is a bit of pain, but it is helping me see things.

    I am making it a priority to exercise.... hit the gym on the way home before i get involved in homework and making dinner, do a bike ride first thing Saturday morning instead of waiting until the honey do's are done, doing every errant i can on bike, commuting when I can.

    I have been tracking weight and exercise on a spread sheet.... and note a clear relationship between exercise and weight loss.... ie in the summer when I was commuting every day and getting extra rides in.
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  20. #45
    Watching and waiting. jethro56's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sayre Kulp View Post
    Unless I missed something, Goldfinch basically just said that weight loss is difficult and requires pushing beyond what most people are accustomed to to achieve. She also didn't make any excuses and clearly has managed to lose the weight she needed to.

    +1



    Meanwhile, I don't understand the negative attitude over people who are satisfied being slightly overweight. It's all about what works for the individual. I'm pretty comfortable being overweight. I may outweigh the average road cyclist by 100 pounds or so, but I can also bench more than that guy weighs. It's kind of up to me to make that decision.

    I don't think I'm satisfied with being overweight. I also don't think I'm satisfied with my fitness. I am at a point where weighing less isn't automatically making me more fit. For that matter working out harder or longer or most anything that the elite athletes say is necessary to achieve greatness isn't making me more fit. I'm not an elite athlete. I'm just someone dedicated (obsessed) with being the best I can be. Searching for that balance is the most difficult challenge I've ever commited myself to doing.

  21. #46
    Senior Member tony_merlino's Avatar
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    I think all that Goldfinch is saying is that losing weight is painful, but straightforward - you have the motivation of the scale keeping you on track. I know that during the many (maybe a dozen) or so times that I've successfully lost significant amounts of weight (by which I mean 20 lbs or more), it was easy to stay focused on the goal.

    But as he/she (I'm sorry Goldfinch, I don't know what gender you are) said, keeping it off is another story. People who, like most of us here, have a lifetime of bad habits behind us, who have an unhealthy relationship with food that, left to itself, will surely wind us up right where we started (or worse), can't just lose weight and forget about it. Keeping it off requires maintaining the same level of vigilance that we practiced while we were losing it. And that's NOT easy to sustain, particularly if we lost the weight through extreme measures. It's very difficult to sustain extreme measures when (1) we're no longer getting the reinforcement of the scale moving, the clothes fitting more losely, etc, and (2) other challenges in life take their rightful place at the forefront of our attention.

    This is why, ALMOST WITHOUT EXCEPTION, people who lose significant amounts of weight through diet and/or exercise, gain the weight back within a few years. Does that mean that we shouldn't try, if we're not comfortable being the way we are? Of course not - I don't believe Goldfinch is saying that. To me, it's much better to be at a normal weight, even for a couple of years, than to be obese all the time.

    I was skinny as a rail as a teen, blimped up from 135 lbs to 230 lbs in my early 20s, did Atkins at 25 and went back to about 140 lbs (very skinny was "in" back then...). This was really great because I was single, and believe me, a lot more women were interested in me when I was thin than when I was fat. I went up and down through my 30s and 40s, usually setting 175 lbs as my "diet trigger", at which point I would get serious and go on a diet until I was back in the 150 - 160 lb range. This strategy worked for 25 years. And the kind of diet didn't matter - I found that all of them worked to lose weight, as long as I stuck to them.

    In my 50s, things changed. I found that the rise from 150 to 200 happened almost overnight. In the last 9 years, I've been through the cycle of 160 to 220 three times, with smaller oscillations in between. I'm lucky in that it's still easy for me to lose weight, if "easy" is defined as "painful, but deterministic and effective". It's just that keeping up the level of obsession required to sustain the weight loss, given my current lifestyle (a fair amount of business travel, working from home within easy reach of the kitchen when not traveling, whacked-out schedule,...), is something I haven't been able to do.

    Does that mean it's not worth losing weight again? I don't think so, even though I don't have a lot of faith that I won't find myself in the same boat a few years down the line - been through the cycle too many times. Right now, I'm looking at riding, not as a way to lose weight, but as a reason to lose weight - I want to be able to get on my road bikes again, and take some of the rides I used to enjoy so much. Being single again is also a motivator. I haven't found that women in their 50s like short fat guys any better than they used to when they were in their 20s ...
    L'asino di Buridano...

  22. #47
    Bulky Bullet Sayre Kulp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jethro56 View Post
    I don't think I'm satisfied with being overweight. I also don't think I'm satisfied with my fitness. I am at a point where weighing less isn't automatically making me more fit. For that matter working out harder or longer or most anything that the elite athletes say is necessary to achieve greatness isn't making me more fit. I'm not an elite athlete. I'm just someone dedicated (obsessed) with being the best I can be. Searching for that balance is the most difficult challenge I've ever commited myself to doing.
    I like this statement. I can relate to this. I got down to about 260. At that point, I decided to start lifting again and got back into serious weight training and crossfit. Now I'm back up to about 285. But that doesn't mean I'm less fit. I'm much stronger and have much more stamina than I've ever had. That, and I'm having fun with my fitness routine. Keeping it interesting as it were. I'm not satisfied with being overweight, but I don't care so much as to make myself miserable trying to get those extra pounds off. But like you, I am dedicated to being the best I can be. Good call.
    "Obstacles don't like me very much. I make them look bad."

  23. #48
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    It's not obsession that keeps the weight off, it's habit as Tony points out and as jimnolimits also does in another current thread on this forum.

    Losing weight is NOT painful. How could that possibly be? Compared with the pain of obesity itself, the act of losing weight cannot cause pain. It might cause hunger pangs and psychological distress. But pain? I don't think so. Yet is it portrayed as being yet another excuse or demotivator for people to lose weight; in this case, it is more outright than the veiled "obsession" excuse.

    Over-eating is a habit. Eating the right amount and exercising are habits. There are people who are going to make both into obsessions, but they are probably predisposed to obsessive behaviour anyway.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  24. #49
    Senior Member tony_merlino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    It's not obsession that keeps the weight off, it's habit as Tony points out and as jimnolimits also does in another current thread on this forum.

    Losing weight is NOT painful. How could that possibly be? Compared with the pain of obesity itself, the act of losing weight cannot cause pain. It might cause hunger pangs and psychological distress. But pain? I don't think so. Yet is it portrayed as being yet another excuse or demotivator for people to lose weight; in this case, it is more outright than the veiled "obsession" excuse.

    Over-eating is a habit. Eating the right amount and exercising are habits. There are people who are going to make both into obsessions, but they are probably predisposed to obsessive behaviour anyway.
    Actually, most of us who are obese are predisposed to compulsive behavior. It's more than a habit. Overeating is often similar to other compulsive behaviors or addictions - we use it to mitigate stress, boredom, frustration, to get a little pleasure rush. It gets us through the day, and when it's gone, it leaves a hole.

    I've posted this before, but I'll say it again: it's harder to keep weight off than it is to keep from drinking or smoking after you've stopped (and I know what I'm talking about from personal experience). You can live without drinking alcohol or smoking, you can just abstain; you can't live without eating. And continuing to eat moderately and not compulsively when you're a compulsive/addictive eater is like trying to be a "moderate" drinker or smoker rather than quitting outright - it's MUCH harder.

    But just because it's hard shouldn't be a demotivator. In fact, even if, for many of us, keeping the weight off is a forlorn hope, that still doesn't have to sap our motivation for losing it. I've been up and down so many times in my life that I don't have a lot of faith that I'll keep it off this time - I've fought this war for 40 years, winning some ground for a while, then losing it, then winning it back, then losing it again... But that's OK. I'd rather be thin for a couple of years than to be continuously obese. And who knows - maybe this time I'll find whatever it takes in me to really keep it off.
    L'asino di Buridano...

  25. #50
    Senior Member kevrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    To lose weight you have to reduce calories lower than what is necessary to maintain your current weight. Call it a diet or call it a lifestyle change, the body still knows it is not getting as much calories as it wants. And, the odds are good that you will gain the weight back. This seems to be true no matter how the weight is lost.
    yes, that was my point, let me rephrase.... usually, when people 'diet' there is a timeframe involved. to lose it can keep it off one has to make permanent changes to their thought processes and daily operations. fat is stored in cells, when weight is lost the cells get smaller. but they are still there and have to same purpose, which is to store energy. so they just hang out for the rest of your life waiting for extra glucose to come by. feed them or don't.
    In a world full of people, only some want to ride. Isn't that crazy?
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