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  1. #1
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    The 585's are built!

    The Deep V I built a few months ago is holding up without issue. Despite the fact that it has been dealt a few blows.

    But, the exciting news is that I've finally recieved all the parts and assembled my new DT Swiss 585's to some Ultegra hubs with DT Champion spokes.

    The build went easy enough. But, I'm somewhat disappointed. After hearing repeated sources comment on how round and true the DT rims are out of the box, the rim that went into the back had a flat spot (dip) at the weld that is marketedly more noticable than the Deep V's. The front rim is considerably more round. Oh well, they'll ride fine.

    I've mounted up my fresh but least favorite 25mm Rubino Pros until I can get a fresh set of better tyres. I'm thinking those will be some Michelin Optimums. A friend's bike that I was working on has them and they looked farily decent.

    Thanks Mr. Beanz, et al, for convincing me to start building my own.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    So what kinds of tools did you end up getting to build your own? Did you go whole hog or did you make do?

    Why didn't you return the flat rim?

  3. #3
    old and in the way grueling's Avatar
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    I would love to hear how those rims hold up. I am considering a set as well. Did you use a reference book/website to help build up your first set of wheels?

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    Senior Member Hill-Pumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I'm thinking those will be some Michelin Optimums. A friend's bike that I was working on has them and they looked farily decent.
    I just put a pair on my road bike, and have one ride on them so far. My first impression is that they ride smooth, but felt "sluggish" to me. I am going to play with the air pressure some to see if that helps any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grueling View Post
    I would love to hear how those rims hold up. I am considering a set as well. Did you use a reference book/website to help build up your first set of wheels?
    I am only 175# but my 585s have been great. They have been over curbs and down the local single tracks. I trust them more than my last mtb wheelset.

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    Senior Member maidenfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grueling View Post
    I would love to hear how those rims hold up. I am considering a set as well. Did you use a reference book/website to help build up your first set of wheels?
    I have a set of 585's w/32 spoke Ultegra hubs, built by a local wheelbuilder (Sugar Wheel Works). Picked them up a year or so ago and have a few thousand miles on them - still rolling true (were checked by builder recently). They are heavy, but great durable rims. I was in the 260 range when I got them and now in the 240 range and am pretty hard on wheels.
    "Others don't understand because I train every day of my life as they have never trained a day in theirs." Alexandr Karelin - the most dominating Greco-Roman wrestler - ever

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    So what kinds of tools did you end up getting to build your own? Did you go whole hog or did you make do?

    Why didn't you return the flat rim?
    I already had a spoke wrench. So, I purchased a Park Tension meter(IMO the most important tool a clyde wheel builder can own). On the DeepV build I traded a bottle of wine for use of a local shops truing stand. But, they've since closed there doors. So, for this pair it was a supported frame with a scale rubber banded across the stays/blades, judicious use of brake pads and flip flopping the wheel to achieve dish. No doubt this took far longer than if I had a truing stand, but, it's not an exercise I anticipate doing frequently. The DeepV has about a thousand miles on it so far and hasn't required even a look at the spoke wrench. Let's hope the 585's replicate this pattern.

    Given the issues I was having with the LBS', the fact that the DeepV is going well and that several of my cycling friends have suffered similiar issues and are impressed with what I've produced, I suspect the purchase of a truing stand and dishing tool aren't far off. There's already a small list of clients if I decide to offer my services.

    It just amazes me that a guy (me), albeit a completely OCD engineer, with little experience and a few pages of internet instructions can produce results that the mechanics at 3 different LBS' could not. That said, the time it required me to get the tensions balance to +/- < 5% was more than a shop could have economically invested and still made any money. I hope that with just a little experience, that time would be significantly reduced. But, it still takes time and patience.

    I didn't return the lesser rim for a number of reasons. It had been ordered from CRC in Ireland and the shipping would have been prohibitive.Tthe variation is probably well within what DT would consider normal or acceptable and may not actually affect the actual bead bed. It is at the welded seam. It is most likely the result of grinding/machining the weld joint and not actually affecting tyre roundness. I can't be sure on this as the tyres are less round and true than the wheels.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grueling View Post
    I would love to hear how those rims hold up. I am considering a set as well. Did you use a reference book/website to help build up your first set of wheels?
    Sheldon Brown's instructions, a couple of different spoke length calculators to ensure I got the lengths right and that was it. Oh,...and Mr Beanz encouragement to get off my ass and just do it. It really isn't hard if you are at all mechanically inclined and have a bit of patience. The most important thing you can purchase is a tension meter. The Park TM-1 is far from perfect. But, it's readily available.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill-Pumper View Post
    I just put a pair on my road bike, and have one ride on them so far. My first impression is that they ride smooth, but felt "sluggish" to me. I am going to play with the air pressure some to see if that helps any.
    Mrs. Fred has just left for work. The sun sky is getting lighter and I'm about to head out for a ride. I'll post in a couple hours about how they feel in comparison to the DeepV. I'm not expecting "light" from these. I am however, expecting "stiff". And, for a clyde like me, that can be even more important. I hate the sound of power robbing brake rub whenever I stand.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
    I am only 175# but my 585s have been great. They have been over curbs and down the local single tracks. I trust them more than my last mtb wheelset.
    So, you're using them as a 29'er rim? Seems like a bit of an unusual choice for that.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Hill-Pumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Mrs. Fred has just left for work. The sun sky is getting lighter and I'm about to head out for a ride. I'll post in a couple hours about how they feel in comparison to the DeepV. I'm not expecting "light" from these. I am however, expecting "stiff". And, for a clyde like me, that can be even more important. I hate the sound of power robbing brake rub whenever I stand.
    I was actually referring to the Michelin Optimums in my post. Still, I hope that the wheels work out for you!

  12. #12
    Senior Member Homeyba's Avatar
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    Awesome. Hope they give you many thousands of trouble free miles.
    It doesn't get harder, you just go slower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    So, you're using them as a 29'er rim? Seems like a bit of an unusual choice for that.
    I replaced my mtb with a cyclocross bike but I still hit the trails every once in a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill-Pumper View Post
    I was actually referring to the Michelin Optimums in my post. Still, I hope that the wheels work out for you!
    Ah, so you were. See that now. Oops. What did they replace for comparisons sake?

    My Hate/Hate relationship with Vittoria Rubino Pros continues. The inaugural 585 ride was just cut short by a flat only 16k into the ride. Yes, I know I could have replaced it and continued on instead of turning toward the house. But, it was raining and I didn't feel like sitting in the wet, changing out a tube and pumping it up with the micro pump, when the house was a quick right turn and less than a km away.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
    Awesome. Hope they give you many thousands of trouble free miles.
    So do I mate. So do I.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
    I replaced my mtb with a cyclocross bike but I still hit the trails every once in a while.
    For some reason they make sense to me as a CX rim, but, not as an mtb rim. I guess it's the probability of them having a 32-35mm tire mounted on them, vs, something that might be closer to 50mm.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    For some reason they make sense to me as a CX rim, but, not as an mtb rim. I guess it's the probability of them having a 32-35mm tire mounted on them, vs, something that might be closer to 50mm.
    You are correct. They work well as a cross rim but a 35mm tire is probably about their limit. Here is the bike in question:


  18. #18
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Sheldon Brown's instructions, a couple of different spoke length calculators to ensure I got the lengths right and that was it. Oh,...and Mr Beanz encouragement to get off my ass and just do it. It really isn't hard if you are at all mechanically inclined and have a bit of patience. The most important thing you can purchase is a tension meter. The Park TM-1 is far from perfect. But, it's readily available.
    Well, good for you... now I need to follow suit.

    I actually have the TM-1, just need to go use it. I suspect my spokes on my daily wheels need some attention but they're still straight as an arrow. (crossing fingers)

    What did you do for hubs and how the HECK do you choose 'em? Well, I see you used ultegra, but hubs leave me scratching my head... I have no idea what to look for.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Hill-Pumper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    What did they replace for comparisons sake?
    I have been running Schwalbe Durano S in size 23 C. The 25c Michelin Optimums are mounted on some HED C2 wheels that I just bought, so I do not know how much can be attributed to the difference in wheels. The new combination gives me the same ride quality as my 35c's on my cross bike. I started the Optimums at a little lower pressure then normal, since the HED wheels are suppose to let you do that for ride quality, but I may need to add some to help with the resistance that I seemed to have. I may at some point put a pair of the Schwalbe's to see if I like them better.

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    The really quick first ride (truncated by yet another Rubino Pro flat) report.

    First, I have to correct my initial post. They're laced up with DT Competition spokes (double butted, 2.0/1.8) not the straight gauge Champions. I have no idea why I wrote that. My decission to try DB all the way around was based on the general reports from several reputable sources (Zinn, etc.) that their use results in a "more durable" wheel over the long haul. Triple butted spokes like the Alpine III's were ruled out because of inability to get them in the necessary lengths, even from souces like SJS in the UK. The DeepV rear that I built up in March used straight gauge Champions on the DS and double butted Comps on the NDS. I can report that there is noticably less spoke wide up with the straight gauge spokes.

    While building the 585's I employed the use of an old pair of slip joint pliers, whose serated jaws are worn sufficiently smooth as to not pose a threat to the spokes, to hold each spoke just below the nipple and performed all adjustments with a screw driver. This definately eliminated wind up and eased getting tensions balanced.

    So, I clipped in, put my weight on the pedal and rolled out, down the drive. During the first revolution of the wheels there was a grand total of 2 "ting's". That was it. And, they were small ones. A couple km into the ride, the first seated hill resulted in one additional "ting". A few more km into the ride and two hills later there is a "test" hill that I do repeats on. Standing and maintaining 80+rpm resulted in no new sounds, what so ever. In contrast, I am accustomed to wheels from the shop sounding like a bell chorus as the spokes settle over the first several revolutions.

    Overall, they feel stiff, as expected. They feel somewhat different to the rear DeepV/front Open Pro that I was riding. But, I can't really put a finger on it. It was a short ride (only 16k), but on very familliar tarmac. If I had to describe the feeling I would say they felt laterally stiff, but, vertically somehow more compliant or lighter. I'll report back after a few more km.

    The rear rim joint. Something is/was up with it. On initial braking I was getting a definate catch at that point. It did however disappear by the third hill. I've made sure that the pads are properly positioned and not running off the top of the rim, where the joint weld is no longer machined. Not sure about this. I'll keep an eye on it.

    With the exception of my crap tires. Have I mentioned that I loathe Vittoria Rubino Pros? (I have no idea how they've gotten a decent reputation) I'm happy with how the wheels feel.

    I'll report back in a few hundred km with an update.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrojanHorse View Post
    Well, good for you... now I need to follow suit.

    I actually have the TM-1, just need to go use it. I suspect my spokes on my daily wheels need some attention but they're still straight as an arrow. (crossing fingers)

    What did you do for hubs and how the HECK do you choose 'em? Well, I see you used ultegra, but hubs leave me scratching my head... I have no idea what to look for.
    To give some idea of just how hard building is: These were my third and fourth wheels. I printed Sheldon's instructinos for the first wheel and used them as a reference on the second. While getting the materials together for this build, I found those instructions and placed them on the table with everything else. I never actually ended up looking at them. When you're ready for some new wheels, Just Do It.

    I chose Ultegra's because they're a known quality. I could have just as easily used some 105's and saved about $70. But, the bike they're on is otherwise all Ultegra and DA. When I added up the total cost of rims, spokes, tape, tires, tubes, the difference in cost for the hubs wasn't that great. I anticipate these wheels lasting a long time and would have loved to build them on a set of Chris King hubs. But, I'm not currently employed, so couldn't really justify spending that sort of cash. I also considered DT hubs. The colours and graphics would have matched really nicely. But, they're almost as dear as the Chris King hubs. So, Ultegra it is. Chances are pretty good that the hubs will last as long, if not outlast, the rims.

    Choosing hubs:

    Sealed bearings versus cup and cone. I'm increasingly an "all weather" rider. With that in mind, sealed bearing hubs start to make more and more sense. You live in sunny Cali. And, if you're at all a fair weather rider, cup and cone really don't have any negatives. Even given the nature of our weather here, I still ended up going the cup and cone route. I just need to become more consistant in my service of them.

    Freehub ratchets. As superficial as this is, I don't like the swarm of angry bee's freehub ratchets (Campy, Fulcrum, Hope, Chris King). They offend my sense of enjoyment on my rides and I frequently joke with riding partners who have them that, "Campy assumes you don't coast. You must pedal! All the time. Coasting is not fast. If you coast, no Campy for you!" So, I gravitate toward the much quieter Shimano freehubs for purely personal accoustic asthetic reasons.

    As a clyde, I also eliminate alloy and exotic freehub bodies. I know that there are plenty of clydes out there using them. But, personally, I've had bad experiences. I've broken pawls, the recesses that hold them, stripped the teeth they engage with and more. Moste recently, in February I had the freehub on a Specialized Camber completely lock up, fixie style. That was not a fun ride out of the woods and back to town. Thankfully it was a demo and didn't have to concern myself with "what" or "how" it happened. Just handed the bike back to the guy, informed him that it was not functional and negotiated the return of my and my friends rental fees for our inconvenience. So, steel frehub mechanisms for me.

    Um,.........and don't forget to get hubs with the same number of holes as your rims. That's important! Beyond that, rear spacing, 130 or 135mm.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdgenbird View Post
    You are correct. They work well as a cross rim but a 35mm tire is probably about their limit. Here is the bike in question:

    Nice ride. It would have to have more than one gear for me. I'm still too much of a lard ass to consider riding off road and up hills with a single speed.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hill-Pumper View Post
    I do not know how much can be attributed to the difference in wheels.
    Depending upon what you were on before, plenty. You're really dealing with an apples and oranges comparison at the moment. If you're sufficiently curious, you would have to mount the Optimums to your old wheels and the Duranos to the C2's to get an idea of how each component effects the entire package.

    Back to the old rule about only changing one thing at a time when trying to do a comparison.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Nice ride. It would have to have more than one gear for me. I'm still too much of a lard ass to consider riding off road and up hills with a single speed.
    i am a pretty young and lean 175# and it still makes me feel inadequate during off road elevation changes.

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