Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 36
  1. #1
    Senior Member fatpunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Carolina
    My Bikes
    '12 Giant Sedona
    Posts
    104
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Getting Annoyed w/ My LBS

    God love em for selling me a bicycle 6 months ago. I have been in there once a month to have the wheels placed back in true every month at their cost. The time before last I took it in for busted spokes. The mechanic working that day tells me, he can get me a set of tandem wheels. Super strong, etc etc etc for 200 dollars for the set. I should of jumped on it. This last go round they started flexing and rubbing on the brake pads. So i've had enough and took it to them to order a stronger wheel set. The stock wheels on my Giant Sedona are supposed to be tough. Just not tough enough for my fat butt.

    So I walk in the other day and explain the problem and what is going on. I guess they are so used to dealing with skinny kids and beach cruisers I was speaking Greek. They get the owner who is SUPER NICE and very experienced. After talking with the owner of the shop he recommends a set of DH wheels with upgraded hubs, 40 spoke count, DT Swiss spokes, so on and so on. Tells me he can put a set on for 250. I tell him, "Absolutely let's do it!".

    I get a phone call yesterday telling me he can't make it happen, the cost isn't what I was quoted for a strong set of wheels but he can do 1 tandem wheel for the rear for 250 dollars. Seriously?! I'm so freaking annoyed right now I just want my bike back. I wish the local tech college put on a wheel building class and a bicycle mechanic class. I'd rather learn how to build my own wheels and just invest the money into that so I know it's done right and I'm not getting railed.

    The bicycle scene here is HUGE because of the colleges and the beaches and tourist. I just wish bicycle shops knew how to take care of big dudes. ..

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NZ
    My Bikes
    More than 1, but, less than S-1
    Posts
    3,315
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just how heavy are you? Up to around 300 pounds a 36h wheel should be able to be built that will hold up for you. I'm not surprised to hear that they can't build a 40h tandem set <$250. 40h components aren't the most common or cheapest.

    Depending upon how many spokes your current hubs have, a rebuild with new spokes and/or rim may be sufficient.

    I can understand your frustration. The same is what drove me to start building my own. So far, so good, on that front. If you are mechanically inclined and patient wheel building is not that difficult with a few basic tools. At the top of my list for building clyde wheels would be a tension meter and spoke prep or locking nipples.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Mithrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    My Bikes
    2012 Surly LHT, 1995 GT Outpost Trail
    Posts
    2,261
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I am near 400 pounds. My bike shop put together a wheelset for me with Mavic A719 rims, 36h, DT Swiss spokes, Deore XT hubs. Over 2000 miles later they are still as true as the day they were built.

    I don't believe 40h wheels are necessary, 36 clearly does the job for me. I believe the rims are tandem rims, so you may want to consider those.

  4. #4
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    NW,Oregon Coast
    My Bikes
    7
    Posts
    35,866
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A New hand built custom Rear wheel, premium components for $250
    is Not outrageous..

    the other example may have been lower tier components , machine built,

    but as specifics are not stated IDK.

  5. #5
    Senior Member fatpunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    South Carolina
    My Bikes
    '12 Giant Sedona
    Posts
    104
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I shouldn't of been surprised on the price and change in price. I agree with everyone on that point, but damn I wish my LBS would of just been upfront and honest with me. They are a hour drive easy from me so taking my bike to them every time something goes wrong is growing really old. I honestly believe i'm going to start learning about wheel building and truing and just do it out of my garage and build my own wheels and learn how to do my own repairs.

    Not the easy or the cheap route but I think i'll enjoy it.

  6. #6
    Climbers Apprentice vesteroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,470
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    If your budget conscious, I would just look online for a 36 spoke set of wheels....look for touring or similar wheels.

    While they won't be hand built, I think you can find something that is a heck of a lot better than what you have for inside your budget.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    47
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Look online 250 +/- a few bucks is the average for a single rear wheel
    http://www.amazon.com/Handspun-Shima...=tandem+wheels


    much cheaper in 36h

    http://www.amazon.com/Handspun-Sport...rear+wheel+36h
    Last edited by evand; 07-10-12 at 07:39 PM.

  8. #8
    Watching and waiting. jethro56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Mattoon,Ill
    My Bikes
    Trek 7300 Giant Sedona E-Bike Trek Madone 4.5 Surly Cross Check
    Posts
    1,977
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    $250 is kinda steep for a 26" freewheel hub wheel. Especially since it's going on a $320 bike. I have a Sedona and from the factory the wheels took a lot of work to get them to stay true and hold an even tension. Being that the LBS didn't know how much a wheel cost to build or at least how much they needed to charge puts them in the less than knowlegable catagory.

  9. #9
    Senior Member skilsaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Victoria, Canada
    My Bikes
    Cannondale t1, Koga-Miyata World Traveller
    Posts
    1,546
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I bought my son the $2500 wheels he wanted for Ironman Canada.
    Then he achieved his personal worst.
    I saw $2500 fly out the window.
    The one who has the most bikes wins.

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    My Bikes
    Felt F75
    Posts
    168
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The problem isnt your wheels.

    The problem is that the mechanic your LBS has doesnt know how to build a wheel properly, and tension the spokes correctly. And as such they go out of true. Which they would do with even a light rider who rides hard.

    A properly built and tensioned set of wheels will not come out of true unless they are abused, potholed, jumped, curbed, or some other massive force is applied to them.

    So this LBS, instead of admitting that they cant properly build wheels, is insisting on trying to sell you overbuilt super heavy wheels to work around the problem, rather then resolve it.

    My suggestion...find a new LBS.

  11. #11
    Lover of Old Chrome Moly Myosmith's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    NW Minnesota
    Posts
    2,537
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm not sure I'd go as far as what Buck said, but proper wheel building is extremely important. You can buy the best possible components and the wheel can still fail if improperly built. The flip side is that there are mechanical limits to every wheel, no matter how well built. I rode decent entry level 32-spoke wheels for a year and popped a few spokes, always on the back wheel. Sometimes I could trace it to a rough patch of road, etc, other times I'd just hear a *ping* and the rim would start tapping the brake pad. The LBS checked the wheel and trued and retensioned each time and all would be good for a month or two. A very well respected wheel builder at the shop set me up with a 36-spoke 4-cross on an LX hub with a touring rim for under $200 and I haven't popped a spoke or had to true the wheel since.

    My take from this is that it is definately a combination of quality/appropriate components and a skilled wheel builder. If either is lacking, you are going to have problems.
    Lead, follow or get out of the way

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    cherry hill, nj
    Posts
    5,915
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Have them put on the Swiss DT spokes. They did that for my facotry rim and all was solved.

    But to be frank, you only need the rear wheel to be strong. The front can stay as is.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    North Attleboro, MA
    My Bikes
    2011 Steamroller; 1998 Cannondale F-400; 1981 Motobecane Jubilee Sport
    Posts
    231
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm an ex-clyde so I'm not bashing overweight people at all.

    If it's not a mechanical defect or poor workmanship causing the problem, but the fact that you're that heavy that you are causing your wheels to go out of true, it's kind of ****** move to expect the LBS to keep fixing the problem at their expense.

    I've dealt with some ****ty shops in my time, there are places I avoid like the plague. However, at some point, the responsibility of educating yourself on buying a proper wheel type for your weight/mileage/terrain/riding style falls on the purchaser not the seller.

    Imagine how the bike shop feels about constantly having to give away free service because of buyer ignorance.

    You can teach yourself how to properly tension and true a rim by watching Youtube videos or park tools also has some maintenance videos.
    2011 Surly Steamroller; 1998 Cannondale F-400; 1981 Motobecane Jubilee Sport
    Car free since 1998. Big Oil hates me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nye, The Science Guy
    Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There's something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mithrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    My Bikes
    2012 Surly LHT, 1995 GT Outpost Trail
    Posts
    2,261
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SteamingAlong View Post
    I'm an ex-clyde so I'm not bashing overweight people at all.

    If it's not a mechanical defect or poor workmanship causing the problem, but the fact that you're that heavy that you are causing your wheels to go out of true, it's kind of ****** move to expect the LBS to keep fixing the problem at their expense.
    I completely disagree. As I stated before my shop was able to build 2 36h tandem rims for me that have been true for over 2000 miles already. And this is with loads of up to 450 pounds (grocery shopping). A well-built wheel should have no problems; the only reason the LBS had to keep fixing the problem is because they didn't do a good job building the wheel to begin with.

  15. #15
    Senior Member rdtompki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Hollister, CA
    My Bikes
    Volagi, daVinci Joint Venture
    Posts
    3,864
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    I completely disagree. As I stated before my shop was able to build 2 36h tandem rims for me that have been true for over 2000 miles already. And this is with loads of up to 450 pounds (grocery shopping). A well-built wheel should have no problems; the only reason the LBS had to keep fixing the problem is because they didn't do a good job building the wheel to begin with.
    +1. 40 spoke tandem wheels, for example, are good to well over 400 lbs. We have 9000 miles on ours and they are as true today as when bought. 40h is overkill I would think for a single, but proper 36h wheels should be fine if not abused.
    Rick T
    --------
    Volagi - Triple"ized" and Tubeless
    daVinci Joint Venture

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    My Bikes
    '74 Schwinn Le Tour (x2), '83 Bianchi, '96 Trek 820, '96 Trek 470, '99 Xmart Squishy Bike, '03 Giant Cypress
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SteamingAlong View Post
    If it's not a mechanical defect or poor workmanship causing the problem, but the fact that you're that heavy that you are causing your wheels to go out of true, it's kind of ****** move to expect the LBS to keep fixing the problem at their expense.

    I've dealt with some ****ty shops in my time, there are places I avoid like the plague. However, at some point, the responsibility of educating yourself on buying a proper wheel type for your weight/mileage/terrain/riding style falls on the purchaser not the seller.

    Imagine how the bike shop feels about constantly having to give away free service because of buyer ignorance.

    Most people go to a bike shop (and usually pay a premium to do so) because the bike shop is supposed to be the expert in the relationship, not the customer. While I certainly think it's fool-hearty to not educate yourself at least a little bit, I very much disagree that "falls on the purchaser not the seller" is entirely correct. A first-class shop (of any product or service) will not sell something that is bound to fail for a particular use. If that shop sold something that wasn't proper for the OP, then that is their problem to fix if they value their reputation.

    Example: I have a remodeling business and a fair bit of word-of-mouth traffic (that is my only means of advertising, BTW) and from time to time I'll get somebody that wants me to do something that I think is not a good idea. Do I take the money and cross my fingers, or do I try to educate the customer as to why I think it's a bad idea and decline the work? Because I value my reputation in the community, I never purposefully take on a project that I don't think is a good idea and then blame the inevitable failure on the customer. I am the expert in this situation, and they came to me for my expertise.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    North Attleboro, MA
    My Bikes
    2011 Steamroller; 1998 Cannondale F-400; 1981 Motobecane Jubilee Sport
    Posts
    231
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This doesn't sound like a custom wheel build. It sounds like machine built wheels. The bike shop didn't "build them". So I have no idea why they're being faulted for an "inferior" build on wheel set that is probably distributed and sold in the thousands and is rarely an issue.

    And, since these are probably machine built wheels, try going back to the manufacturer and getting them to fix the problem>>> good luck with that.

    Wolfwerx - Imagine the customer who complains to you that the room you built them has holes in all of the walls, because their sons are using the room as an in door shooting gallery or that's the room with the batting cage. Are you going to go back and fix this walls everytime they call, because you didn't ask the purpose for the room and they didn't tell you or ask that the walls are bullet proof?

    Under your scenario, I'd expect you to replace those walls everytime they call.
    2011 Surly Steamroller; 1998 Cannondale F-400; 1981 Motobecane Jubilee Sport
    Car free since 1998. Big Oil hates me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nye, The Science Guy
    Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There's something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym.

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    My Bikes
    '74 Schwinn Le Tour (x2), '83 Bianchi, '96 Trek 820, '96 Trek 470, '99 Xmart Squishy Bike, '03 Giant Cypress
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SteamingAlong View Post
    Wolfwerx - Imagine the customer who complains to you that the room you built them has holes in all of the walls, because their sons are using the room as an in door shooting gallery or that's the room with the batting cage. Are you going to go back and fix this walls everytime they call, because you didn't ask the purpose for the room and they didn't tell you or ask that the walls are bullet proof?

    Under your scenario, I'd expect you to replace those walls everytime they call.

    That is a logical fallacy.
    If the drywall fell off the studs because I used finish nails rather than drywall screws, then I would be on the hook for repair because that is not something that the customer should have needed to specify. Under my scenario, and in real life: I fix my mistakes, as common sense dictates.

    More to the point: If the OP is riding his bike for its intended purpose, that the shop sold it to him for, and he is not abusing it (which I don't know this, he doesn't say that he's taking it off any sweet jumps or whatever) then it was the shop's fault for selling him an inappropriate product. I mean, let's face it, Clydes don't look skinny. The sales guy should have broached the subject of weight and wheels and determined if those stock wheels were appropriate to the OP. It's their fault that they didn't mitigate their liability.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    My Bikes
    '74 Schwinn Le Tour (x2), '83 Bianchi, '96 Trek 820, '96 Trek 470, '99 Xmart Squishy Bike, '03 Giant Cypress
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    And I'm not suggesting that the shop has to fix them for free, forever. If it were my bike, I would be OK if they either credited me towards a new wheel build, or offered to buy back, or something else that left me at least at break-even.

    Edited to add: Further, I've seen/heard of shops that go back to the manufacturer to have them take responsibility for things like this. Again, it depends on what kind of reputation the shop wants to have.
    Last edited by Wolfwerx; 07-11-12 at 01:01 PM. Reason: more

  20. #20
    internettubes engineer st3venb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mesa, Az.
    My Bikes
    2012 Felt Z85
    Posts
    305
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    I completely disagree. As I stated before my shop was able to build 2 36h tandem rims for me that have been true for over 2000 miles already. And this is with loads of up to 450 pounds (grocery shopping). A well-built wheel should have no problems; the only reason the LBS had to keep fixing the problem is because they didn't do a good job building the wheel to begin with.

    erhm... if I'm reading this right they didn't build his wheels... they've just maintained the factory machine built wheels.


    To the OP: sometimes they try and help, and that bites them in the ass... they tried to quote you a good price cause they were being nice to you... and realize that you've had so many problems with your wheels. Unless blatantly lied to by the LBS maybe you should try and look at it with a positive undertone rather than the "they're trying to screw me" undertone.

    Also, being a heavier person means that stock wheels 99% of the time are not going to work out for you... at least the rear. The sooner you accept that and have a wheel built for you, the happier you'll be.

    Is that all you've got?
    mrclydesdale.com :: my blog!

  21. #21
    Senior Member Mithrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    My Bikes
    2012 Surly LHT, 1995 GT Outpost Trail
    Posts
    2,261
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by st3venb View Post
    erhm... if I'm reading this right they didn't build his wheels... they've just maintained the factory machine built wheels.
    Fair enough, I missed that part. But I still stand by my... stance. He's been in once a month for 6 months to get them fixed. The shop should have noticed that something was wrong after the 2nd month and moved to rectify the problem.

    As for the price, my perfect wheels were built for roughly $250 combined, so $250 for one seems a bit over the top.

  22. #22
    internettubes engineer st3venb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Mesa, Az.
    My Bikes
    2012 Felt Z85
    Posts
    305
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    Fair enough, I missed that part. But I still stand by my... stance. He's been in once a month for 6 months to get them fixed. The shop should have noticed that something was wrong after the 2nd month and moved to rectify the problem.

    As for the price, my perfect wheels were built for roughly $250 combined, so $250 for one seems a bit over the top.

    As to your comment there, I agree... My LBS asked to see the bike after having trued the rear wheel a couple times... I brought it in, knowing nothing was wrong and then we talked about building wheels... and they're giving me discounts to build my wheels for me cause I've been a good customer and the stockers just didn't work out for me.

    So, they're building me a set of 32h dt swiss 350s on DT spokes, brass nipples, and DT r585 wheels for $680. Not bad, I know I could buy all the components online and build them myself cheaper... but I don't mind supporting these guys... and they'll stand behind this set of wheels just like my stockers, and help me out.

    Is that all you've got?
    mrclydesdale.com :: my blog!

  23. #23
    Senior Member Black wallnut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ellensburg,WA
    My Bikes
    Schwinn Broadway, Specialized Secteur Sport(crashed) Spec. Roubaix Sport, Spec. Crux
    Posts
    1,128
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My LBS does a much better job at CS than the OP's and they have been in business for years and likely will for many more. Last year when my Schwinn popped a second spoke in a row they sold me a replacement wheel. About a month later I started popping spokes on the front as well and they sold me a replacement front. After a few months the back popped a spoke, then another. At that time the owner decided that they sold me a wheel not up to the task for me and I was down to below 260 lbs. I was however riding over 400 miles per month by then. They warenteed the wheel with full value for a Velocity hand built wheel. Whether they recooped their costs from the first wheel manufacturer or not they gained a customer through good service. By guesstimating based on retail markup even if the shop ate the wheel it likely did not cost them much over $20, and for that they gained a dedicated customer. Right before that I purchased a bmx bike for my 6yo.

    Then last winter I had a friend who wanted a new custom kitchen and guess what one of my other hobbies is..... He bought me a new bike and I built him a kitchen full of oak cabinets. I think he got one hell of a bargain because it took me a bunch longer than I guessed it would have. Of course my new bike came from my LBS. My new ride had issues right out the gate with the rear wheel. It would not stay tensioned. After a few months the LBS got Specialized to warrenty it with a hand build upgrade.

    Guess where I went when my oldest son became serious about cycling this spring to get him a bike to replace his worn out mt. bike? Good customer service pays huge dividends to those who provide it. It is simply a matter of good business.

    OP find a LBS with better service or a good local wheel builder or learn to build your own. I'd not return to your current LBS. If the owner misjudged the cost of a strong wheel by such a large amount I'd question his skills elsewhere, but that is the way I roll. However $250. for a hand build is not unreasonable IMHO, if you want one with a high spoke count and strong enough to last.


    Mark

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    My Bikes
    Felt F75
    Posts
    168
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As a 300 pound clyde, who rides hard and fast, and happens to also ride on a 32 spoke rear wheel (2 cross drive, radial non drive), i can honestly say without a single amount of doubt, that overbuilt, over spoked, heavy wheels with are done entirely to circumvent the problem of poor wheel building, improper tension, and poor maintenance on the part of the owner...particularly in the early life of the wheel.

    We are heavy enough, why drag the extra weight?

    I know it sounds absurd, especially based on how most of the people here on this board feel about such things, but try to find a shop that caters more to racing, and high performance cycles. There is a greater chance that their mechanic will likely know how to properly build and tension a wheel, as he will be more likely to deal with exacting high demand cyclists that require perfect equipment. Also most of the higher end shops will usually have spoke tension gauges, and special tools to help aide in wheel building.

    Then once you find such an LBS, make sure you take your bike back regularly to have them give it a once over, and adjust any small fiddly things they find in the process. That way you can keep your wheels in good shape, and enjoy riding much more regularly.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NZ
    My Bikes
    More than 1, but, less than S-1
    Posts
    3,315
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Buck_O View Post

    I know it sounds absurd, especially based on how most of the people here on this board feel about such things, but try to find a shop that caters more to racing, and high performance cycles. There is a greater chance that their mechanic will likely know how to properly build and tension a wheel, as he will be more likely to deal with exacting high demand cyclists that require perfect equipment. Also most of the higher end shops will usually have spoke tension gauges, and special tools to help aide in wheel building.

    Then once you find such an LBS, make sure you take your bike back regularly to have them give it a once over, and adjust any small fiddly things they find in the process. That way you can keep your wheels in good shape, and enjoy riding much more regularly.

    I really wish I could endorse this suggestion. But, it simply doesn't work that way in a lot of places. My experience has been that racing oriented shops with 145lb mechanics simply don't understand why, what normally works for them doesn't work for a 250-300lb'er. You would think that they would be anal retentive about tension balancing, etc. But, often times they aren't and their experience has proven to them that their approach is adequate. What "special tools" do expect these shops have? On this, I am genuinely curious.

    How frequently would you consider reasonable for regular servicing?
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •