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Old 05-31-13, 07:30 AM   #1
Ursa Minor
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Don't you hate it when ... Part 2

you are riding on the bike path and encounter people going the wrong way? The other day I was doing my usual 20 mile ride on the bike path and came to an especially tight turn with a blind corner only to be confronted with two young ladies jogging side by side going the wrong way and taking up the entire path. When I told them they were going the wrong way one of them in said in a very snotty manner "we're going the right way look it up". Well I did look it up and shes wrong. The DVM handbook clearly states that running or walking against the traffic direction is wrong and hazardous. Unfortunately there is an ocean of these wrong-wayers and they completely spoil the calm I usually get from riding.

As with my earlier post I don't want to create drama but its so frustrating that I wanted some input from others on the forum.

Charlie
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Old 05-31-13, 07:42 AM   #2
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you are riding on the bike path and encounter people going the wrong way? The other day I was doing my usual 20 mile ride on the bike path and came to an especially tight turn with a blind corner only to be confronted with two young ladies jogging side by side going the wrong way and taking up the entire path. When I told them they were going the wrong way one of them in said in a very snotty manner "we're going the right way look it up". Well I did look it up and shes wrong. The DVM handbook clearly states that running or walking against the traffic direction is wrong and hazardous. Unfortunately there is an ocean of these wrong-wayers and they completely spoil the calm I usually get from riding.

As with my earlier post I don't want to create drama but its so frustrating that I wanted some input from others on the forum.

Charlie
One of many reasons why I rarely ride MUPs these days. I'd rather take my chances with the traffic than with pedestrians, iZombies children, dogs etc. At least the traffic moves in a predictable direction.
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Old 05-31-13, 10:14 AM   #3
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First don't let it spoil your ride. After the encounter move on. It's going to happen again so let it slide right off you. I'm going to assume that the majority of people encountered either do it right or do everything they can to get out of the way. For our trails I realize that people are out there strolling about without much thought to structure (which side, etc). They left that behind at the office, home, road, etc. Naturally that doesn't make it right it just makes it the way it probably is. So.... don't let the minority of people get you don't for too long. Vent about it, find a puppy to kick, beat up an old lady, then continue the ride.
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Old 05-31-13, 10:23 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ursa Minor View Post
The DVM handbook clearly states that running or walking against the traffic direction is wrong and hazardous.
You have a link for that? I thought in every stated pedestrians were supposed to walk against traffic.

The first publication I looked at supported this (page 4):
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/curriculum/Unit%209.pdf

However, I don't know if there are defined rules for bike paths, since they aren't considered a roadway.
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Old 05-31-13, 10:24 AM   #5
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If it's a blind corner, you shouldn't be going fast.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 05-31-13, 10:25 AM   #6
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When I told them they were going the wrong way one of them in said in a very snotty manner "we're going the right way look it up". Well I did look it up and shes wrong. The DVM handbook clearly states that running or walking against the traffic direction is wrong and hazardous.
Really? My reading of the California Vehicle Code would suggest that pedestrians are required to walk on the left side of the road unless it is unsafe to cross to that side. This interpretation seems to be pretty, darn, universal.

Do you know what I really hate? Obnoxious jackasses who stop to offer their opinions when they should be minding their own business...
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Old 05-31-13, 10:29 AM   #7
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You have a link for that? I thought in every stated pedestrians were supposed to walk against traffic.

The first publication I looked at supported this (page 4):
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/curriculum/Unit%209.pdf

However, I don't know if there are defined rules for bike paths, since they aren't considered a roadway.
On MUPs, as a pedestrian, I walk on the left side (in the US). I want to see the high speed objects coming towards me so I can react to them. As a bicycle, I find it much better when the pedestrians are on the left side as I find it very helpful when the people I am passing can see me.
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Old 05-31-13, 10:34 AM   #8
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they completely spoil the calm I usually get from riding.
Nah, getting worked up about it is what spoils your calm. If you're riding an MUP with the goal of getting calm, you need to work on expectation management a little. MUPs are basically Thunderdome. If you want calm, ride some country roads.

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Old 05-31-13, 10:39 AM   #9
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Really? My reading of the California Vehicle Code would suggest that pedestrians are required to walk on the left side of the road unless it is unsafe to cross to that side. This interpretation seems to be pretty, darn, universal.

Do you know what I really hate? Obnoxious jackasses who stop to offer their opinions when they should be minding their own business...
Agree that peds need to walk facing traffic on the road (for instance, on the shoulder)...on MUPs, the standard is that peds ARE traffic, and so should stay to the right.
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Old 05-31-13, 10:43 AM   #10
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Agree that peds need to walk facing traffic on the road (for instance, on the shoulder)...on MUPs, the standard is that peds ARE traffic, and so should stay to the right.
is this standard written or some unwritten law?
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Old 05-31-13, 10:48 AM   #11
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Jezz your right i just googled it and apparently they are supposed to walk that way. I remember reading several months ago that they weren't. O well
I must change my attitude. Thanks for the heads up.
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Old 05-31-13, 10:51 AM   #12
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is this standard written or some unwritten law?
Well, MUPs generally aren't covered under laws in the same ways roadways are, so it's not the "law" per se. However, the "rules" posted on the MUPs in this area--and I'd assume most other areas as well--explicitly say that slower "traffic" should keep to the right. The Washington and Old Dominion trail, for instance, states: "When on the trail, please travel in the right lane only, and pass on the left." The Mount Vernon Trail, which is administered by the US Park Service, lists under "trail rules and etiquette" to: "stay to the right". So IMHO, Ursa Minor was correct in the situation with the joggers...they should've been on the right side of the trail.

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Old 05-31-13, 10:56 AM   #13
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There is a lady I've encountered recently who has taken it upon herself to police a stretch of a local MUP. I'm not sure what her sense of duty is, but she gave me an ear full the other day for not signalling when I passed a jogger who was wearing headphones. (for reference, I generally announce myself, and I'm not a particularly quick rider). I'm sure she thinks she's doing good, but I'm going to buzz the tower this afternoon if she's in her spot.
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Old 05-31-13, 10:58 AM   #14
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According to this link in Sacramento County on the MUPs they say pedis on left which means the are walking facing oncoming traffic just as DMV rules state.

http://www.msa2.saccounty.net/parks/...gulations.aspx

And it makes little sense to me that the rules of the road would differ on a MUP than it is on the road.especially when there are no signs posted (that I have seen anyway) and the fact doing a search the only item I found when searching was the above one that indicates rule is same not different. At least appears as such in California.
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Old 05-31-13, 11:00 AM   #15
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Well, MUPs generally aren't covered under laws in the same ways roadways are, so it's not the "law" per se. However, the "rules" posted on the MUPs in this area--and I'd assume most other areas as well--explicitly say that slower "traffic" should keep to the right. The Washington and Old Dominion trail, for instance, states: "When on the trail, please travel in the right lane only, and pass on the left." The Mount Vernon Trail, which is administered by the US Park Service, lists under "trail rules and etiquette" to: "stay to the right". So IMHO, Ursa Minor was correct in the situation with the joggers...they should've been on the right side of the trail.
Same thing around here.

Which really goes to show that not everybody studies the laws and generally they do what makes sense to them if they are indeed thinking at all. When I encounter something like that I throw out a few "Sorry!" words and generally they do the same regardless of who is right or wrong and we move on.
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Old 05-31-13, 11:04 AM   #16
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According to this link in Sacramento County on the MUPs they say pedis on left

http://www.msa2.saccounty.net/parks/...gulations.aspx
Except that's not what it says...it says "Use the left shoulder when it is accessible to you." Nowhere does it say "walk on the left side of the path."

Also note that it instructs cyclists to "
Pass on the left." How can you "pass on the left" if pedestrians are on the left?

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Old 05-31-13, 11:08 AM   #17
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It doesn't state true but nowhere can I find where it states walk to right. I have never seen signs to that effect on the MUP I frequently ride on. I take it things are different where you are. How would peds here KNOW to follow different rule than what is standard on roadways unless it is posted as such. If not posted I would guess rule is same as for roads. That makes sense to me.
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Old 05-31-13, 11:12 AM   #18
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It doesn't state true but nowhere can I find where it states walk to right. I have never seen signs to that effect on the MUP I frequently ride on. I take it things are different where you are. How would peds here KNOW to follow different rule than what is standard on roadways unless it is posted as such. If not posted I would guess rule is same as for roads. That makes sense to me.
Peds ARE traffic on an MUP and should act the same as if they were cars on the road. When you're walking down a hallway, do you walk on the left or right? Do you need signs to tell you?
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Old 05-31-13, 11:14 AM   #19
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Agree that peds need to walk facing traffic on the road (for instance, on the shoulder)...on MUPs, the standard is that peds ARE traffic, and so should stay to the right.
I disagree with this. If it is a MUP, that means multi-use and as there is a large difference between bicycle and pedestrian speed, I think it's a gross oversimplification to say that the pedestrians are the traffic.
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Old 05-31-13, 11:22 AM   #20
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Guys I apologize for my error. I can see that not only must I change my attitude but I must be extra polite to pedestrians to make up for my earlier rudeness.

Charlie
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Old 05-31-13, 11:25 AM   #21
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I disagree with this. If it is a MUP, that means multi-use and as there is a large difference between bicycle and pedestrian speed, I think it's a gross oversimplification to say that the pedestrians are the traffic.
So by that logic, bikes should ride on the left side of the road because there is a large difference between bicycle and auto speed. And I'm sorry, but "stay right except to pass" is not an oversimplification....it's exactly how simple it should be and really is the underpinning of pretty much all our traffic behavior. I don't know how trying to make rules up as you go like "well, peds should stay on the left, even though bikes should pass on the left, but only sometimes when they feel safe and if it's a full moon..." is going to make anyone safer.
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Old 05-31-13, 11:26 AM   #22
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Peds ARE traffic on an MUP and should act the same as if they were cars on the road. When you're walking down a hallway, do you walk on the left or right? Do you need signs to tell you?
Why so rude? I certainly was not being rude to you. I have been trying to find what the law states in California where I live and cannot find anything related to MUPS and where peds should be. Why insult me?

Done with this thread

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Old 05-31-13, 11:33 AM   #23
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Everybody is the traffic. Without know what the specific rules are for the path you are on at that moment I stick with what most of them (in this area) are and that is traffic is to the right, pass on the left, faster yields to slower (bikes -> in-line skates -> Runners -> Walkers). Safety and common sense overrules all that and we all play along nicely.

In this area there are a few trails that have different rules. One is "Pedestrians on the right, bikes on the left". For a two way trail. What? That's the rule though.
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Old 05-31-13, 11:43 AM   #24
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It doesn't state true but nowhere can I find where it states walk to right. I have never seen signs to that effect on the MUP I frequently ride on. I take it things are different where you are. How would peds here KNOW to follow different rule than what is standard on roadways unless it is posted as such. If not posted I would guess rule is same as for roads. That makes sense to me.

The link you posted does say that walkers and jogger should be off the pavement using the left dirt shoulder to avoid accidents.

I have looked up the bike Califronia path rules a few times and have found that rules state all traffic should travel with the flow of traffic and no one should interfere. I can't find the site right now and not going to invest too much time.

But I did find this on the Santa Ana River Trail site. It says pretty much the same thing. Traffic stays right except to pass.

http://www.santaanarivertrail.org/tr...etiquette.html


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Old 05-31-13, 11:43 AM   #25
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Why so rude? I certainly was not being rude to you. I have been trying to find what the law states in California where I live and cannot find anything related to MUPS and where peds should be. Why insult me?

Done with this thread
It was a rhetorical question...I wasn't insulting your intelligence. No, we don't need signs to tell us to stay to the right in a hallway, because we know that the hallway is like the road, and people walking in the hallway are like cars. An MUP is no different, so in the absence of signs, people should do what they naturally do (in the US, anyway) and walk to the right. The instances in which one is legally required to walk on the left are actually pretty rare, and are thus the exception to the norm of staying to the right.
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