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  1. #26
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    Broke another one today and the wheel is out of round. Thinking I need to forgo the warranty replacement and get a stronger one made.

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    They say one broken spoke replace it, two rebuild it. But as others have said, the first one at least should be covered under warranty. I had the same thing a few years ago and the shop replaced the wheel and charged the manufacturer. The manufacturer prices a certain amount of warranty work into the overall cost of their bikes.
    Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Let all that you do be done in love.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    I got a complete new wheel yesterday. Same as the one that came on it before. It was taken off a floor model. They did not do any spoke tensioning while I was watching. Not sure if it was done before it hit the floor. I asked specifically if adjusting spoke tension would help my issue and was told due to where it is breaking (J weld?) that tensioning won't have any effect. Is that true?

  4. #29
    Senior Member MRT2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
    I got a complete new wheel yesterday. Same as the one that came on it before. It was taken off a floor model. They did not do any spoke tensioning while I was watching. Not sure if it was done before it hit the floor. I asked specifically if adjusting spoke tension would help my issue and was told due to where it is breaking (J weld?) that tensioning won't have any effect. Is that true?
    Hmm. Don't know about that. Frankly, your story is disappointing. Even if you were being unreasonable(and you weren't), they should still do what it takes to meet your expectations. Maybe do some research and consider taking the new wheel to another bike shop (hopefully one with a competent wheelbuilder on staff) and have them check out the new wheel.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    Is there an online service for wheel building? Someone that is known good?

  6. #31
    Senior Member MRT2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
    Is there an online service for wheel building? Someone that is known good?
    Not that I know of.

  7. #32
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    http://www.bikebling.com/Spinergy-X-...xaero-lite.htm
    Call this place, ask for Leo. tell him David with the Tarmac sent you. They have a Spinergy regional rep that works at thier store. His name is Randy. He has no issues getting you a set with higher tension. I started on these wheels when I was 300 lbs, They have never come out of true or had any issues. I crank out stupid amounts of power when I sprint and I have not had an issue. Testing my power I peaked at 1600 watts in a sprint. To give you an example of how hard I thrash, I have had a headset come loose 3 times, crank once, shifter once, and I broke 2 novatec hubs. These wheels are nice and light and are priced right. I highly reccommend them for bigger guys. I hope this helps out
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  8. #33
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    I don't know of you really need new wheels. A properly built 32 spoke wheel could be fine. I just doubt this one has been built up properly.

  9. #34
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teufelhunden222 View Post
    That's about what I paid for the bike. Was hoping for a cheaper option.

  10. #35
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
    I got a complete new wheel yesterday. Same as the one that came on it before. It was taken off a floor model. They did not do any spoke tensioning while I was watching. Not sure if it was done before it hit the floor. I asked specifically if adjusting spoke tension would help my issue and was told due to where it is breaking (J weld?) that tensioning won't have any effect. Is that true?
    Holy smokes, the J hook is the biggest breaking point for spokes lacking tension. Especially on the drive side.

    Lack of tension allows slight movement of the spoke at that at point. Like a hanger wire bent over and over, it eventually breaks.

    Even if the wheel feels tight right now being new, they should check and re adjust the tension after 200 miles or so. Once they do this, the wheel should be good to go for thousands of miles if done properly.

    If this shop doesn't know this or is just blowing you off, find a new shop. Find another shop and talk to the wheel guy and ask him to adjust the tension for you. As others have done, it'w worth a few extra bucks to have it done right.

    I myself would find another shop, pay the guy to do it but with the agreement that he check and readjust the tension 200-300 mile down the road as well. If he is a good wheel guy, he will understand your concerns and agree. Your current shops sucks IMO. Tell them to read this thread so they know just how bad they suck!

  11. #36
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tip. I've got two LBS's that I deal with. One has great sales staff and so so techs. The other has so so sales staff and a really knowledgeable tech. I bought this bike at the first one, but I think I am going to end up taking the bike to the latter.

  12. #37
    Senior Member adrien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    Holy smokes, the J hook is the biggest breaking point for spokes lacking tension. Especially on the drive side.

    Lack of tension allows slight movement of the spoke at that at point. Like a hanger wire bent over and over, it eventually breaks.

    Even if the wheel feels tight right now being new, they should check and re adjust the tension after 200 miles or so. Once they do this, the wheel should be good to go for thousands of miles if done properly.

    If this shop doesn't know this or is just blowing you off, find a new shop. Find another shop and talk to the wheel guy and ask him to adjust the tension for you. As others have done, it'w worth a few extra bucks to have it done right.

    I myself would find another shop, pay the guy to do it but with the agreement that he check and readjust the tension 200-300 mile down the road as well. If he is a good wheel guy, he will understand your concerns and agree. Your current shops sucks IMO. Tell them to read this thread so they know just how bad they suck!
    Agree. Current shop is terrible -- sounds like work avoidance to me. I wouldn't let them so much as touch my bike given your stories. I can't wait to hear the "theory" that brakes are sort of optional...
    "how do you know you can't swim until you have drowned?"

  13. #38
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrien View Post
    Agree. Current shop is terrible -- sounds like work avoidance to me. I wouldn't let them so much as touch my bike given your stories. I can't wait to hear the "theory" that brakes are sort of optional...
    Zactly! KNOWING that Clydes and or specific big customer riders have a problem with wheels, it's amazing how many workers will do or say whatever it takes to get out of doing the job right! I mean c'mon, if you are too lazy to do the job right, then at least tell Fictional Bill back there in the shop that this customer needs some actual work done but you're too lazy to do it yourself.

  14. #39
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    I have to agree with what Beanz and a few others have stated.

    The shop the bike came from don't know what they're talking about. Spokes that are undertensioned or unevenly tensioned will typically break at the J-bend (elbow) on the drive side or the nipple will back off on the non-drive side. Even tension is probably more important than maximum tension. But, for clydes and especially super clydes both are important.

    You need to find the best "wheelsmith" in your area. What you need are the drive side spokes of the rear wheel tensioned to the upper limit of what the rim is rated to and tension balanced to within +/- 5% of the average (the industry standard on a machine built wheel is +/- 20%). The average tension of the drive side spokes will probably end up in the 120-130kgf range. The non-drive side will be whatever is necessary to properly dish the wheel. If this guy is reasonably decent he'll set the spoke heads. And, to achieve the +/- 5% he's going to be tension relieving the wheels, retruing and retensioning repeatedly, until doing so no longer effects true or tension (less than an hours work, probably a half if the wheel is already true and reasonably tensioned). Get this done before you start riding that new wheel and take the front along for a check and tension as well.

    Your tires should be fine. 32 spoke wheels might not be ideal. But, with good, even tension they should be fine on reasonable roads and paths.

    Don't feel bad about this stuff. It's not just you. I've been riding as a clyde for 30 years and when I've moved cities in the past I end up going from one LBS to another until the techs quite telling me that what I'm asking for is unneccessary, or overkill, or .........

    Currently in a city of 1.4 million, when the one guy I would trust with me wheels went out of business, I tried and gave up on 3 different high end shops(none of whom could provide me with a wheel that would last more than 3 rides before going out of true or breaking a spoke) before starting to build my own.

    Light guys simply dismiss some of what us clydes know to work as being the aforementioned unneccessary.

    Now, go find your wheelsmith. You're a cyclist who knows what he wants and expects. As soon as a wrench starts to tell you otherwise, turn around and walk out the door.
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  15. #40
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the info. Is this tensioning something I can learn to do/check on my own?

  16. #41
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
    I got a complete new wheel yesterday. Same as the one that came on it before. It was taken off a floor model. They did not do any spoke tensioning while I was watching. Not sure if it was done before it hit the floor. I asked specifically if adjusting spoke tension would help my issue and was told due to where it is breaking (J weld?) that tensioning won't have any effect. Is that true?
    See post #11

  17. #42
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    Sorry to hear about the troubles with your wheels. I'm about 320lbs + clothing and I haven't had any troubles with the wheels of my 7.2FX. I've got 211 miles on it in the 2 months I've had it. I've try to be pretty religious about keeping the tires pumped up to the max pressure of 80lbs at least once a week and before any ride of over 15 miles or so. I'm also careful about large pot holes and curbs, but I do bike regularly across brick streets. Hopefully the new wheel works out for you and the first one was just a random defect. That being said, when I take it in to get the cables readjusted I'm going to ask him how the wheels are holding up and check for even tension on the spokes.

  18. #43
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johde View Post
    Sorry to hear about the troubles with your wheels. I'm about 320lbs + clothing and I haven't had any troubles with the wheels of my 7.2FX. I've got 211 miles on it in the 2 months I've had it. I've try to be pretty religious about keeping the tires pumped up to the max pressure of 80lbs at least once a week and before any ride of over 15 miles or so. I'm also careful about large pot holes and curbs, but I do bike regularly across brick streets. Hopefully the new wheel works out for you and the first one was just a random defect. That being said, when I take it in to get the cables readjusted I'm going to ask him how the wheels are holding up and check for even tension on the spokes.
    If you haven't already, take the bike back and have them readjust the tension figuring your weight has probably knocked it out at this point.

    200 miles is not really enough to have had any broken spokes at this point. Broken spokes usually break after 2000 miles in my experience. If you take it back now, you're doing yourself a big favor, if not, expect trouble down the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    If you haven't already, take the bike back and have them readjust the tension figuring your weight has probably knocked it out at this point.

    200 miles is not really enough to have had any broken spokes at this point. Broken spokes usually break after 2000 miles in my experience. If you take it back now, you're doing yourself a big favor, if not, expect trouble down the road.
    I was going to take it in Friday but I'm going to Indiana to drive the support van for a Friend doing RAIN (Ride Across Indiana) on Saturday. So it's probably going to be sometime next week. I had the bike in 3 weeks ago to swap out the stem to raise the handlebars. He did a quick once over on the bike then and didn't have any troubles. My point was that in the OP case, he'd broken 2 spokes in about 120 miles with the same model bike. So either, he got an unlucky wheel, I got a lucky wheel, or my LBS at least did a basic tensioning when I bought the bike after we had discussed weight issues.
    Last edited by johde; 07-10-13 at 05:22 PM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by johde View Post
    Sorry to hear about the troubles with your wheels. I'm about 320lbs + clothing and I haven't had any troubles with the wheels of my 7.2FX. I've got 211 miles on it in the 2 months I've had it. I've try to be pretty religious about keeping the tires pumped up to the max pressure of 80lbs at least once a week and before any ride of over 15 miles or so. I'm also careful about large pot holes and curbs, but I do bike regularly across brick streets. Hopefully the new wheel works out for you and the first one was just a random defect. That being said, when I take it in to get the cables readjusted I'm going to ask him how the wheels are holding up and check for even tension on the spokes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    If you haven't already, take the bike back and have them readjust the tension figuring your weight has probably knocked it out at this point.

    200 miles is not really enough to have had any broken spokes at this point. Broken spokes usually break after 2000 miles in my experience. If you take it back now, you're doing yourself a big favor, if not, expect trouble down the road.
    Agreed that 200 miles, even if poorly tensioned, shouldn't be enough mileage to be breaking spokes. But, it is possible that the shop did an appropriate job of stress relieving and tensioning the wheel before sending it out the door. :-)

    I really, really, really wish the industry would educate the mechanics out there about stress relieving, tensioning and tension balancing/equalizing wheels for riders in excess of 200 lbs. But, with the prolifiration of "wheel systems" and the ever declining demand for shops to actually build or maintain wheels as part of their daily business, it seems such skills and knowledge are vanishing:-(
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
    Thanks for all the info. Is this tensioning something I can learn to do/check on my own?
    It is, IF you have realatively good mechanical apptitude.

    All that is required is a spoke wrench and, until you develop the feel or ear for even tension/tone, a tension meter. Park Tools has a free excel spreedsheet that allows you to enter your values and provides you with an excellent graphic representation of each spokes tension realative to the rest. With that in mind, the Park TM-1 tension meter is probably the easiest meter for a beginner to start with. There are others and they range from the reasonably basic but perfectly funtional Wheelsmith model up to those costing hundreds of dollars and involving dial indicators. None of them is doing anymore than providing a realative deflection of the spoke between two points when subjected to a consistant force.

    For a really quick indicator if a wheel's tension is badly out of whack. Rotate the wheel and pluck each spoke with a consistant motion and force. All the spokes on a given side of the rear wheel should provide the same tone. If they don't, it's because they are at different tensions. The spokes on the left side (the non-drive side = NDS) will be at lower tension than those on the right side (the drive side = DS) and subsequently a lower tone. But, on a side they should all be identical. If you don't hear a difference, it doesn't necesssarily mean they are perfect, unless you've developed a good ear for such things. It just means they aren't completely out of whack. If you're hearing definite variation, they are siginificantly out and warrant attention. If they sound the same you're at a good starting point for use of the meter.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by johde View Post
    My point was that in the OP case, he'd broken 2 spokes in about 120 miles with the same model bike. So either, he got an unlucky wheel, I got a lucky wheel, or my LBS at least did a basic tensioning when I bought the bike after we had discussed weight issues.
    Yes. 120 miles would be very little to be experiencing fatigue related breakages due to tension. It sounds like that in at least one of the OP's instances it was a nipple backing off. Which could also be attributed to either uneven tension or too little tension. Hence the number of people enquiring about which side of the wheel these issues are occuring on. Too little tension on the DS will lead to so little tension on the NDS the nipples can back off. Uneven low tension can make the matter even worse. Uneven tension can also see one spoke carrying considerably more load than if it were evenly distributed across all spokes through proper tension balancing.

    It would reasonably rare, but not unheard of, for the wheel to be manifestly defective.

    More times than not, it's a matter of realative high and even tension. I had a 32 spoke Mavic CXP rim that was breaking spokes within 2 rides of a shop servicing it. Repeatedly! They were trying to convice me that it was beyond repair or service and that I (at 115kg) should buy some new Zipp 101's I detensioned the entire thing, brought it back up to tension and true. Tension balanced it, which because is was used and somewhat worn meant it wasn't perfectly true, no more broken spokes.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  23. #48
    Banned. Mr. Beanz's Avatar
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    I had a Deep V rim on the tandem break a spoke within 100 miles (handbuilt 48 spoke) Then 2 more after another 100.

    Unfortunately the shop was gone when I returned.

    Bud's in Claremont for those who are local and remember. I could name the builder but his buddies whine every time I bring this up on the forums as he is still out there building wheels pretending to be a righteous builder. The dude must have now they closing and sub'd a few spokes instead of ordering the spokes I had ordered and paid for. Not to mention he screwed up the front wheel too by building the wheels across the valve making it hard to secure the pump head. I think of this ass every time we ride the tandem.

    I checked every spoke only to find out the builder substituted a few spokes. I replaced them with the DT I had ordered and rebuilt myself, no problems since.

    You never know how your wheel will act when it's not a good build, 100 miles, 500 miles, 2000 miles, spokes will break. Plus you never know who built the wheel or ran the machine, or if QC even checked it.

    PS, there is a reason I started building my own wheels.

    ----------------------

    Let me add, working in for QC the last 13 years, there are times when the mfg just says this part sucks but throw it in, we'll handle it when if it's returned. This happens a lot when companies are in a rush to meet monthly quotas.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Beanz View Post
    I had a Deep V rim on the tandem break a spoke within 100 miles (handbuilt 48 spoke) Then 2 more after another 100.

    Unfortunately the shop was gone when I returned.

    Bud's in Claremont for those who are local and remember. I could name the builder but his buddies whine every time I bring this up on the forums as he is still out there building wheels pretending to be a righteous builder. The dude must have now they closing and sub'd a few spokes instead of ordering the spokes I had ordered and paid for. Not to mention he screwed up the front wheel too by building the wheels across the valve making it hard to secure the pump head. I think of this ass every time we ride the tandem.

    I checked every spoke only to find out the builder substituted a few spokes. I replaced them with the DT I had ordered and rebuilt myself, no problems since.

    You never know how your wheel will act when it's not a good build, 100 miles, 500 miles, 2000 miles, spokes will break. Plus you never know who built the wheel or ran the machine, or if QC even checked it.

    PS, there is a reason I started building my own wheels.

    ----------------------

    Let me add, working in for QC the last 13 years, there are times when the mfg just says this part sucks but throw it in, we'll handle it when if it's returned. This happens a lot when companies are in a rush to meet monthly quotas.
    And, there are reasons why I started building my own as well.

    Our experiences aren't that dissimiliar. I would still be surprised if a quality spoke suffered fatigue related failure in those first 200 miles. Can't speak for your spokes. Obviously you determined that they were different from the DT spokes in the wheel. So, no telling if they were cheap knock offs, re-used, etc.

    I hope you've since relaced the front with a parallel pair over the valve and that one day you'll not think of that guy.

    Unfortunately, my experience with regard to manufacturing QC/QA is also not dissimilliar. Can't tell you how many times I've seen operators enter false records to prevent a red flag from being raised. Or, because, "Otherwise quality will come out and yell at us." Only to finally reach the point where they can't continue and then because the true magnitude of the issue is obscured have a manager sign off on continuing production while out of spec. in an effort to get back in. Happens way more frequently than it should.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  25. #50
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    95 miles on the new wheel and all is good at the moment. Thanks for the help.

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