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  1. #26
    Ancient Clydesdale 2 wheeler's Avatar
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    Hmmm.... Honey and high fructose corn syrup have the exact same composition!??

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    Google "The Paleo Diet For Athletes" by Loren Cordian, PhD. It's a $10 ebook on Amazon. It's really about eating Paleo to improve your performance as an endurance athlete (he rides). Lots of great info on timing macronutrient intake around your workouts and events.
    Kyle in SD
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  3. #28
    Disco Infiltrator Darth Lefty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 wheeler View Post
    Hmmm.... Honey and high fructose corn syrup have the exact same composition!??
    No, honey has contaminants

  4. #29
    Disco Infiltrator Darth Lefty's Avatar
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    Just being conscious of what and how much you're eating is a huge step. A diet like this will help you avoid deep-fried starch and candy. Just don't make yourself unhappy with joyless fueling, and don't be so committed to your weightlifting diet that you are opening cans of chicken and spreading the cat-food smell through classes or meetings in order to stay on your schedule.

  5. #30
    Senior Member billh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    'Tis another silly diet. I love this chestnut: "It is eating the way nature intended. You eat the foods our bodies evolved to function best on..." especially when looking at some of the information on the diet. Let's start with the "foods our bodies evolved" with. Hominids evolved in Africa about 14 million years ago and moved out of the continent about 1.3 million years ago. That's a pretty short window in terms of evolution. If we were eating the "foods our bodies evolved" with, we'd be eating a diet that is very different from anything that we eat now. Cereal grains like rice, wheat, oats, and barley are all domesticated around 10,000 years ago which is a blink of the eye in terms of "foods our bodies evolved" with. Cattle were domesticated even later as were many of the food animals we use.

    Potatoes, corn, beans, squash, tomatoes, etc. are all New World plants which means that humans of European ancestry have been exposed to the for only the last 500 years. These are all considered to be good "clean" foods which are supposed to be "foods our bodies evolved" with. But if we old world hominids weren't exposed to prior to 500 years ago, they should be bad for us using the clean food ideas.

    Sugar, on the other hand, has been around in crystalized form since around 400 AD and in syrup form for much longer. Honey, having exactly the same composition as high fructose corn syrup, has been around for far longer. It's actually something that you could say we evolved with.

    The ideas behind the "Eat Clean" diet that I found aren't bad but they aren't all that special either. Nor should we get all nostalgic about the clean eating of our ancestors. Our recent ones didn't eat all that cleanly. If you read Civil War accounts...I suggest Hard Tack and Coffee by John D. Billings...you'll find that they ate some pretty ghastly things compared to even our highly processed foods of today. Salt pork is about as yummy as it sounds. And any kind of fresh produce was unheard of. Even canned stuff was rare.

    Eat a wide variety of foods in moderation. Forget the "foods our bodies evolved with" idea because that horse has left the barn long ago. We have access to foods that are of better quality and better nutrition than any of our ancestors have been able to eat since we diverged from gibbons 14 million years ago. Take advantage of that but, again, in moderation.
    some of this needs fact checking . . . **** sapiens came on the scene about 200K years ago . . . and not sure we want to hold up Civil War survival food like hard tack and salt pork as a shining example of nutrition. ! . . . HFCS does not have the same chemical composition as honey. and therefore likely a challenge for human digestive systems to metabolize after only decades out of 200K years experience with it.

    I also take issue with the main point that "foods we have access to" are of better nutritional value than the all natural foods our systems evolved to handle. "foods we have access to" are loaded with processed sugar, fat and salt. that's not the diet we humans thrive on. and the obesity epidemic is proof.
    "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one" JD Salinger, Catcher in the Rye, 1963

  6. #31
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    HFCS is far closer to honey than any other sweetner..... both are Primarily Fructose and Glucose. Honey has addtional Maltose, Sucrose and some trace protein. (and a similar enough that testing for honey adulteration has changed from checking levels of Fructose to checking for proteins)

    Exactly the same, no but very simlar
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  7. #32
    Ancient Clydesdale 2 wheeler's Avatar
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    The body responds completely differently to honey than it does to HFCS.

    IMO, the fatness epidemic this country has seemed to coincide with the introduction of HFCS. There are certainly other factors, but avoiding sweets and sweeteners (regardless of type) is probably a good idea.

  8. #33
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 wheeler View Post
    The body responds completely differently to honey than it does to HFCS.

    IMO, the fatness epidemic this country has seemed to coincide with the introduction of HFCS. There are certainly other factors, but avoiding sweets and sweeteners (regardless of type) is probably a good idea.
    I don't disagree with the avoid the sweets and sweetners and I think that HFCS is part of the problem because it is cheap and easy to include in industrial food process.

    But from From a chemistry basis fructose and Glucose are fructose and Glucose and the body doesn't handle them any differently based on source.

    here is an article from the American Journcal of Clinical Nutrition that basically states that all surgars are equally good/bad http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/88/6/1716S.full
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  9. #34
    Ancient Clydesdale 2 wheeler's Avatar
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    Here's a link to an article that indicates that honey and HFCS affect the body differently.

  10. #35
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 wheeler View Post
    Here's a link to an article that indicates that honey and HFCS affect the body differently.
    that is a link to a blog.... as always consider the source..... I personally put a little more creedence to a peer reviewed journal from Nutritionists who don't have an axe to grind either way.

    less sugars in general is good, my point is there are tons of urban myths, beliefs about diet,food etc that don't hold up.
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  11. #36
    The Left Coast, USA FrenchFit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
    'Tis another silly diet. I love this chestnut: "It is eating the way nature intended. You eat the foods our bodies evolved to function best on..." especially when looking at some of the information on the diet. Let's start with the "foods our bodies evolved" with. Hominids evolved in Africa about 14 million years ago and moved out of the continent about 1.3 million years ago. That's a pretty short window in terms of evolution. If we were eating the "foods our bodies evolved" with, we'd be eating a diet that is very different from anything that we eat now. Cereal grains like rice, wheat, oats, and barley are all domesticated around 10,000 years ago which is a blink of the eye in terms of "foods our bodies evolved" with. Cattle were domesticated even later as were many of the food animals we use.

    Potatoes, corn, beans, squash, tomatoes, etc. are all New World plants which means that humans of European ancestry have been exposed to the for only the last 500 years. These are all considered to be good "clean" foods which are supposed to be "foods our bodies evolved" with. But if we old world hominids weren't exposed to prior to 500 years ago, they should be bad for us using the clean food ideas.

    Sugar, on the other hand, has been around in crystalized form since around 400 AD and in syrup form for much longer. Honey, having exactly the same composition as high fructose corn syrup, has been around for far longer. It's actually something that you could say we evolved with.

    The ideas behind the "Eat Clean" diet that I found aren't bad but they aren't all that special either. Nor should we get all nostalgic about the clean eating of our ancestors. Our recent ones didn't eat all that cleanly. If you read Civil War accounts...I suggest Hard Tack and Coffee by John D. Billings...you'll find that they ate some pretty ghastly things compared to even our highly processed foods of today. Salt pork is about as yummy as it sounds. And any kind of fresh produce was unheard of. Even canned stuff was rare.

    Eat a wide variety of foods in moderation. Forget the "foods our bodies evolved with" idea because that horse has left the barn long ago. We have access to foods that are of better quality and better nutrition than any of our ancestors have been able to eat since we diverged from gibbons 14 million years ago. Take advantage of that but, again, in moderation.
    +1. For all the fans of the 'original man' diets, you have to realize that life expectancy past the age of 40 is a relatively recent phenomena in human evolution, like last 200 years. Although you can debate the fossil records, our 'original man' ancestors were likely topping out at age 25. That's the diet you want to adopt? You can argue all the other factors, but the 'science' behind all these fad diets is extremely suspect.
    Last edited by FrenchFit; 10-30-13 at 09:28 AM.

  12. #37
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    Funny the subject of clean food should come up. Check this out.

    http://terrywalters.net/

    She's no dummy. She was a finalist for the James Beard award.

  13. #38
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Overall you have to be eating less food than your body requires for maintenance, if you want to lose weight.

    But personally I've found that when I eat "clean" it's much easier to eat reasonable amounts of food, and I also feel much better.
    Adding in some weight training is very beneficial to improving your body composition.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Beneficial Ear's Avatar
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    I got serious and dropped from 225 (6'1") last year round this time to being 170-175 since around march/april, where I held on save for an adventure to 165 by using some meal replacement stuff and a bit of time most recently closer to 180 by not paying attention and eating more spaghetti.

    Long post short, I got more strickly vegetarian - cutout cheese/dairy alltogether, and ate as much fruit/veggies as I wanted but kept spaghetti etc in check... although here and there I did eat sushi but it was rare. Nothing sugary, sugary stuff always preceded a few lbs gained. Minimal alcohol, no smokin....

    On the bike I went hard, I mean HARD. I tried to go as fast as I could for as long as I could at every opportunity, even in the dead of winter. Basically every ride was a 'hard" ride, I saw much less results from medium or easy rides. I avoided overtraining, but took it right to the edge - in this time I discovered how to manage that effort right on the edge and this helped me win my 3rd ever race this year! Getting a garmin and gettin on Strava helped to motivate me and introduced me to excellent routes... it makes hard efforts so rewarding (even if its not in a segment) as they are recorded and can be analyzed, typical bike computer will only give the overall ride average which can be very misleading.

    Being pretty much vegan helps tremendously... prior to this lifestyle change I hadn't been 175 since freshman year of highschool when I was a few inches shorter and even then I had dropped 10-15lbs from all the running and went right back to ~185 after the season! At one point in more recent years even got up to 260...

    "Eating Clean" sounds like good general rules of thumb, do that and make the most of your bike workouts and the weight will fall off.
    >>>goal - 25 miles in one hour<<<

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRT2 View Post
    IMO paleo is a fad.
    but bacon is forever

  16. #41
    Senior Member billh's Avatar
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    this pretty much mirrors my strategy during October . . . I avoided all sweets and salty chip snacks, and instead drank juice from the juicer, and raw (no oil added) nuts like pecans, almonds and walnuts, at a lot of salad for lunch, then every dinner, pop a huge bowl (~3 cups) of frozen veggies in the microwave for 6 minute, stir in some seasoning, top with sliced raw almond, then just eat till I was stuffed. toward the end, I could not even finish that much veggies, and saved them to mix in with my egg scramble the next morning. that really took the tinge off the night time binge. I am similar height and weight loss history, hoping to get down in the 180 range during Nov. and stay there, that's the challenge.

    the one night my diet varied, took my wife out for her birthday to our favorite fancy restaurant and binged . . . lots of creamy soups, very rich and savory foods, finished off with choco bread pudding. my son had a stomach ache halfway through the meal and couldn't finish. my face broke out in pimples the next day and I "paid for it" . . . I will spare the details. !
    "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one" JD Salinger, Catcher in the Rye, 1963

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    Obsession with food is a survival mechanism no longer in play, at least for folks who follow this board.

    Eat to live, not live to eat. Satiation is the real enemy.

  18. #43
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    I wash the dishes before I put food on them.


    Im reading a lot about it with bodybuilders.
    you do the Clean and Jerk with your weights?

  19. #44
    Senior Member billh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    Obsession with food is a survival mechanism no longer in play, at least for folks who follow this board.

    Eat to live, not live to eat. Satiation is the real enemy.
    obsession with food may no longer be necessary for survival . . . at least in the developed world . . . although a good percent of Americans even are considered "food insecure", that is, not entirely confident where their next meal is coming from . . . but aside from that . . . most people on this board, who are food secure, have several hundred thousand years of survival instinct built into their brains. so to glibly say "oh, it's not an issue", simply "eat to live" does not give enough weight to the brains craving for food. food and procreation are two very powerful influences in our lives, not to be set aside.

    now, satiation as the enemy, or "challenge", that I can agree with. but ask why it's the "enemy" . . . it's because our brains crave to build fat stores for the coming famine . . . see above.
    "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one" JD Salinger, Catcher in the Rye, 1963

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    I worked hard to earn my views on food and the weight loss results that came with them. I didn't mean to sound bumper stickerish by cutting to the chase about what worked for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
    +1. For all the fans of the 'original man' diets, you have to realize that life expectancy past the age of 40 is a relatively recent phenomena in human evolution, like last 200 years. Although you can debate the fossil records, our 'original man' ancestors were likely topping out at age 25. That's the diet you want to adopt? You can argue all the other factors, but the 'science' behind all these fad diets is extremely suspect.
    The other thing that irritates me is "oh, it's full of chemicals!"

    The only thing worse than the paleo fad are raw food people. Get back to me when your body can break down cellulose to get to that nutrition, you don't have the right teeth or enough time to break down the cell walls...

    The poison's in the dose. Oxygen is toxic, we need an oxygen free way of life.

  22. #47
    Klaatu..Verata..Necktie? genejockey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchFit View Post
    +1. For all the fans of the 'original man' diets, you have to realize that life expectancy past the age of 40 is a relatively recent phenomena in human evolution, like last 200 years. Although you can debate the fossil records, our 'original man' ancestors were likely topping out at age 25. That's the diet you want to adopt? You can argue all the other factors, but the 'science' behind all these fad diets is extremely suspect.
    Pseudoscientific thinking sells a lot of things, as does the appeal to an imagined 'Golden Age', when everyone was slender and fit, and nobody got Type II Diabetes.

    There's nothing INHERENTLY wrong with a "Paleo" approach, though. Fat, starch, and sugar are simply fuel - concentrated calories that our ancestors would rarely encounter, so they'd eat all they could. You don't need them to get enough calories to live on. You can get all those calories from foods that are more than just fuel, and if you eat too much fuel in a limited calorie diet, you may well not get enough of the OTHER things you need, which a diet of fruits, vegetable, and meats or other protein sources gets you.

    But don't make it a religion. It's just food.
    "Don’t take life so serious—it ain’t nohow permanent."

  23. #48
    Senior Member billh's Avatar
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    I forgot to mention . . . weight loss makes me irritable.
    "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one" JD Salinger, Catcher in the Rye, 1963

  24. #49
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kc0bbq View Post
    The other thing that irritates me is "oh, it's full of chemicals!"

    The only thing worse than the paleo fad are raw food people. Get back to me when your body can break down cellulose to get to that nutrition, you don't have the right teeth or enough time to break down the cell walls...

    The poison's in the dose. Oxygen is toxic, we need an oxygen free way of life.
    Try being a chemist "Oh, it's organic and contains no chemicals," just chaps my hide! Everything on this planet, around this planet and in the universe that isn't a vacuum is made of chemicals. Some are good and some are bad and others fall in between. Sucrose has an LD50 of 29,0000 mg/kg in rats. The only reason that it's that high is because some of the rats were fast enough to get out of the way when the sugar was dropped on them
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    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2 wheeler View Post
    Hmmm.... Honey and high fructose corn syrup have the exact same composition!??
    In terms of carbohydrates, yes. Yes they do. Honey has a few other minor components but honey actually has a slightly higher caloric content and a slightly higher carbohydrate content. But, overall, honey and high fructose corn syrup have the same composition. HFCS is used to adulterate honey because their composition is essentially the same.
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