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  1. #26
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    I have another weight-related theory on "reasonableness bias." People say it's not healthy to be a yo-yo dieter- that going through several cycles of weight loss and weight gain puts a stress on your system. I think back to my ancestors, Poles, who every year would go through lean times, and the people who survived were the ones who could pack on the pounds during time of plenty. I'm pretty sure I've got the "fat gene" that makes it easy to gain weight. But when I set my mind to losing weight, I tend to lose pretty quickly. I think this is a modern adaptation on my part of using the "fat gene"- yes, I gain weight quickly, and can lose it quickly, and so did my ancestors. It's the way I'm built, and maybe there's nothing wrong with going through cycles of weight loss and gain. Without this ability, my ancestors would have never passed on their genes.
    You are right at least on the lack of evidence that yo yo dieting is bad for you. The last I looked there was no research one way or another on weight fluxuation. Your theory is interesting. But probably can't be proved.

  2. #27
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    And I'm okay with that.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  3. #28
    Senior Member bbbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
    I suspect it's not so much the rapidity of the loss that correlates with putting weight back on, but rather the method. Starvation, boot camp, etc. might take pounds off without leading to the lifestyle changes that KEEP it off. This is one thing that I think about when I see the 'riding to lose weight' threads. Don't ride to lose weight, ride to become, AND STAY, fitter and healthier. It only works if you make it part of your life going forward.
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    This. Long term lifestyle change is what gets long term results.
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  4. #29
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    This. Long term lifestyle change is what gets long term results.
    Kind of circular.

    The problem is that the required lifestyle changes are not sustainable for many. For a multitude of reasons.

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    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    This. Long term lifestyle change is what gets long term results.
    I've been riding for years, though, and not losing weight. So there is that, too.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  6. #31
    Senior Member WonderMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
    I'm using LoseIt! and down 78lbs today.

    I was just thinking, one of these two needs to incorporate a GPS app into theirs. So it could track your biking exercise and plug it right into the app. As it stands, I use Cycledroid to track my ride, then move the numbers into LoseIt as exercise to get my negative calories in.
    MyFitnessPal.com hooks into Endomondo.com for what you mentioned.

  7. #32
    Senior Member bbbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    Kind of circular.

    The problem is that the required lifestyle changes are not sustainable for many. For a multitude of reasons.
    So you think short term changes are the key to long term effects?

    If the changes you're making aren't sustainable, then I'd argue you're not making the right changes for long term success.

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  8. #33
    Who has a good sense of humor for going along with my little April Fool Gag (The Admin) Mr. Markets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    This. Long term lifestyle change is what gets long term results.
    Studies how that 'dieters' who keep the weight off the longest continually track calories even after they have hit their target weight.

    So it clearly IS a 'lifestyle choice" to continue to consume an appropriate amount of calories every day and track them to make sure you do it right.

  9. #34
    Senior Member WonderMonkey's Avatar
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    Having difficulties with a mid or longer term lifestyle choice was my problem. Being a coach and other things I was rarely home, etc. Each fastpitch season (school ball then the summer travel season) I'd gain 10-15lbs and each Winter I'd try to get back to zero. Over the years my weight crept up until this past Thanksgiving (2012) I hit 300lbs. The problem was what we mentioned above is that I did not have a long term lifestyle change. I am now at 225lbs and I'll have no issue staying on track to arrive where I need to be. The majority of my weight was lost because I found a way to sustain better nutrition even though my base lifestyle (still coaching, etc) did not change. Once I started down that path I believed I could do it and did. I added bike riding back in to help things out but the majority of safe weight (not consuming muscle) was via nutrition.

  10. #35
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    So you think short term changes are the key to long term effects?

    If the changes you're making aren't sustainable, then I'd argue you're not making the right changes for long term success.

    BB
    Didn't say that.

    I am saying that long term changes are not sustainable for everyone. Look at how many people gain weight back, it is a huge majority. Biology can easily trump resolve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Markets View Post
    Studies how that 'dieters' who keep the weight off the longest continually track calories even after they have hit their target weight.

    So it clearly IS a 'lifestyle choice" to continue to consume an appropriate amount of calories every day and track them to make sure you do it right.
    There are some who seem to be able to keep weight off without being obsessive about tracking both food and weight, but it seems to be a rarity. Those who keep it off tend to be trackers, weighers, and exercisers. And even then not many keep it off.

    I think people do not realize what a huge lifestyle change it might have to be. You will not be living the lifestyle of a person who was never overweight. And, you probably will need fewer calories than a person of the same weight who exercises the same amount.

    It is possible that if you manage to keep the weight down for several years that it will get easier. Maybe appetite regulating hormone levels will start to stabilize. The jury is out though. It would be interesting to test hormone levels in those who have kept weight off for a number of years.
    Last edited by goldfinch; 09-20-13 at 08:40 AM.

  11. #36
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
    MyFitnessPal.com hooks into Endomondo.com for what you mentioned.
    Thanks for that info. I downloaded these two. What's the trick to get them working? Do I have to pay for it or works with free apps?

  12. #37
    Senior Member WonderMonkey's Avatar
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    I think biology trumping resolve is the small minority of situations. Resolve, being "locked-in", etc. is the largest issue. However your point stands and it is not sustainable, be it because they won't allow it to be or they have a condition.

    It didn't used to be sustainable for me, but now it is. The difference? I found a way for it to be sustainable. Once I believed I could do it then it was all but done.

  13. #38
    Senior Member WonderMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
    Thanks for that info. I downloaded these two. What's the trick to get them working? Do I have to pay for it or works with free apps?
    These directions will be vague as it was a ways back when I did it.

    Go to myfitnesspal.com and look for the top menu item of "Apps". That should put you in the "App Gallery". On that page somewhere is Endomondo. Mine is already setup but I think if you click into that there is a "Connect Accounts" link that walks you through it.

  14. #39
    Senior Member bbbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    Didn't say that.

    I am saying that long term changes are not sustainable for everyone. Look at how many people gain weight back, it is a huge majority. Biology can easily trump resolve.
    If they're not sustainable, they weren't long term changes. While some people do have medical issues that make weight loss more difficult, it stil comes down to calories in vs calories out. If you find a way to balance that equation that you can live with, you have a sustainable long term solution.

    What I suspect specifically ISN'T a sustainable long term solution is a starvation diet combined with an over the top exercise schedule. Most of the people I know who've lost large amounts of weight in short periods of time manage to put a lot of it back on once they reach their goal. The people who lose more slowly with less drastic plans tend to maintain the weight better, perhaps because maintaining the plan over a multi-year period ingrains it into their lifestyle and it no longer seems like a diet or exercise plan - it's just how they live.

    BB
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  15. #40
    Klaatu..Verata..Necktie? genejockey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    I've been riding for years, though, and not losing weight. So there is that, too.
    So you're halfway there! I had the same problem, I rode a lot but didn't lose weight. I got fitter, but not thinner. The thing was, I increased caloric intake to match my output. This time around, I'm really trying NOT to do that - though I fell off the wagon last night. But hey - dinner at a Japanese restaurant, paid for by the SVP of R&D? I'm not gonna nibble crackers!

    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    If they're not sustainable, they weren't long term changes. While some people do have medical issues that make weight loss more difficult, it stil comes down to calories in vs calories out. If you find a way to balance that equation that you can live with, you have a sustainable long term solution.

    What I suspect specifically ISN'T a sustainable long term solution is a starvation diet combined with an over the top exercise schedule. Most of the people I know who've lost large amounts of weight in short periods of time manage to put a lot of it back on once they reach their goal. The people who lose more slowly with less drastic plans tend to maintain the weight better, perhaps because maintaining the plan over a multi-year period ingrains it into their lifestyle and it no longer seems like a diet or exercise plan - it's just how they live.

    BB
    Exactly. My sister-in-law has a tendency to weight issues. When she was younger, she yo-yoed quite a bit. But the last 20 years, she's been pretty rigorous about both her diet and taking a 2-4 mile walk every day, and as a result she's kept the weight off. And when I say rigorous, I mean rigorous, as in often bringing/making her own meals at family gatherings to avoid bingeing.
    "Don’t take life so serious—it ain’t nohow permanent."

  16. #41
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
    So you're halfway there! I had the same problem, I rode a lot but didn't lose weight. I got fitter, but not thinner. The thing was, I increased caloric intake to match my output. This time around, I'm really trying NOT to do that - though I fell off the wagon last night. But hey - dinner at a Japanese restaurant, paid for by the SVP of R&D? I'm not gonna nibble crackers!
    Eating one special meal is not "falling off the wagon" and you know it. Just get back to good habits today and keep them going. Then it's not falling off the wagon, it's a blip.

    Earlier this year I was just about as heavy as I've ever been (about 235). But my fitness level this time around was far better than last time. When I was pushing 240 in 2005, I literally was short of breath with minimal exertion, and would wonder if I was going to have a heart attack. At my worst this year, I was able to ride 20 or 30 miles without too much of a problem. But there was no denying my waistline was too big and my belly was starting to hang over it. I felt... actually, not that bad. But after losing 15 lb., I feel much, much better and I'm looking to lose some more.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  17. #42
    Klaatu..Verata..Necktie? genejockey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    Eating one special meal is not "falling off the wagon" and you know it. Just get back to good habits today and keep them going. Then it's not falling off the wagon, it's a blip.
    Yeah, I had fun trying to enter it in the calorie tracker. I ended up just calling it 'Japanese dinner', and listing it as 1500 calories! At that, I was probably low.

    Earlier this year I was just about as heavy as I've ever been (about 235). But my fitness level this time around was far better than last time. When I was pushing 240 in 2005, I literally was short of breath with minimal exertion, and would wonder if I was going to have a heart attack. At my worst this year, I was able to ride 20 or 30 miles without too much of a problem. But there was no denying my waistline was too big and my belly was starting to hang over it. I felt... actually, not that bad. But after losing 15 lb., I feel much, much better and I'm looking to lose some more.
    I started riding as an adult back in 1994, after getting winded playing with my then 3 year-old son. I think I was only about 220 at the time, but I got really spooked by how little effort it took to leave me gasping. I glimpsed a future I did not want to experience.

    Now, I'm coming down from 240, but in all that time I have NEVER been as out of shape as I was then.
    "Don’t take life so serious—it ain’t nohow permanent."

  18. #43
    Senior Member WonderMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    I'm probably losing too fast, but I'm making hay while the sun shines: Lots of riding and not replacing the calories spent. I'm down 15 lb. now in 30 days. Winter will be here soon enough, and I won't be exercising as much.
    As long as you are not losing muscle along the way I don't think there is a "too fast". You may have to look at some ways to get your skin to tighten up while you are losing quickly. I lost fairly quickly and took measures to not lose muscle or have lose skin. Let me know if you need help with that.

  19. #44
    Senior Member Jarrett2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
    These directions will be vague as it was a ways back when I did it.

    Go to myfitnesspal.com and look for the top menu item of "Apps". That should put you in the "App Gallery". On that page somewhere is Endomondo. Mine is already setup but I think if you click into that there is a "Connect Accounts" link that walks you through it.
    Thank you kind sir

  20. #45
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderMonkey View Post
    As long as you are not losing muscle along the way I don't think there is a "too fast". You may have to look at some ways to get your skin to tighten up while you are losing quickly. I lost fairly quickly and took measures to not lose muscle or have lose skin. Let me know if you need help with that.
    So far it's not a problem. I lost 70 lb. in 6 months in 2005 and didn't have any issues. Granted, I'm 8 years older now, but I don't think I'll be losing as much as I did then (I'm 6'-2" and lost down to 168 lb. Looking to get to about 180-195 this time around).
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  21. #46
    Who has a good sense of humor for going along with my little April Fool Gag (The Admin) Mr. Markets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    So far it's not a problem. I lost 70 lb. in 6 months in 2005 and didn't have any issues. Granted, I'm 8 years older now, but I don't think I'll be losing as much as I did then (I'm 6'-2" and lost down to 168 lb. Looking to get to about 180-195 this time around).
    At 6'2" the lightest I ever weighed was 186 and I thought i looked like s skeleton. I prefer to be 210-220 at the height and shooting for that range. If I make 220, I may try for 210 but it won't be important to me then.

  22. #47
    Senior Member goldfinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
    If they're not sustainable, they weren't long term changes. While some people do have medical issues that make weight loss more difficult, it stil comes down to calories in vs calories out. If you find a way to balance that equation that you can live with, you have a sustainable long term solution.

    What I suspect specifically ISN'T a sustainable long term solution is a starvation diet combined with an over the top exercise schedule. Most of the people I know who've lost large amounts of weight in short periods of time manage to put a lot of it back on once they reach their goal. The people who lose more slowly with less drastic plans tend to maintain the weight better, perhaps because maintaining the plan over a multi-year period ingrains it into their lifestyle and it no longer seems like a diet or exercise plan - it's just how they live.

    BB
    What you say is inconsistent with what we know from scientific research. You assume that people who lose more slowly keep off their weight better than those who do a rapid weight loss diet. Well, there isn't research to support that. People just assume it is the case because it seems reasonable.

    Of course, it does come down to calories in, calories out. But that omits the big issue of why we overeat. Do you know that appetite hormones go way out of whack when you lose weight? Do you know all the factors that drive appetite? Do you know the effect of depression or other life events on eating behaviors? Do you know how your brain responds to the sight of certain foods? Do you know the impact of genetics on susceptibility to weight gain and on eating behaviors?

    All it would take is a hundred extra calories a day, hardly anything. And you end up with 11-12 extra pounds a year.

    Now tell me about a sustainable long term solution that is a Solution.

    I have difficulty explaining to people why lifestyle changes sometimes just are not sustainable and the extent of lifestyle changes that might be necessary. You equate not-sustainable to simply not sticking with changes. Sure, it is true that people do not stick with all the changes they made, after all, they do start of overeat. The question is why. The answer is not a simple answer but the important point is that desire alone is clearly not sufficient to keep off weight. And people find that hard to handle because people do love the illusion of control. We want to be in control of our lives and what happens to us. I do as well. After all, I lost weight despite the poor odds of keeping it off. But, given I know the odds are bad I try to find as many tools as I can to help my desire overcome my biology and my psychology and hope that the longer I keep off the weight the better my odds become of continuing to keep it off.

    By way of example: I lost a lot of weight. I lost it at the rate of a pound a week. I got down to low to mid normal weight a couple of years ago. The desire I have to keep off that weight is boundless. I do not want to be obese ever again. I do not want lie in bed feeling the weight of myself and the pain in my back. I do not want to look at those pictures of obese me. I do not want to face my friends with a new fat self. I do not want to seem a loser, a failure. I want to ride my bike mile after mile. I want to hike. I want to sleep well. I want to feel good. I want to live a long and healthy life. My whole life I have been a highly competitive person. Gaining weight is totally inconsistent with how I view myself and how I want to be.

    Yet, in the past few months I increased my body weight by 10%

    I am addressing it with a rigid set of rules regarding eating and other behavior modification techniques. I do not do well without that rigidity. YMMV. Either way, I am yo-yoing.

    Quote Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
    My sister-in-law has a tendency to weight issues. When she was younger, she yo-yoed quite a bit. But the last 20 years, she's been pretty rigorous about both her diet and taking a 2-4 mile walk every day, and as a result she's kept the weight off. And when I say rigorous, I mean rigorous, as in often bringing/making her own meals at family gatherings to avoid bingeing.
    A taste of what it may require.

    Hopefully, compliance got easier for her overtime as her body adapted.
    Last edited by goldfinch; 09-20-13 at 12:15 PM.

  23. #48
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Markets View Post
    At 6'2" the lightest I ever weighed was 186 and I thought i looked like s skeleton. I prefer to be 210-220 at the height and shooting for that range. If I make 220, I may try for 210 but it won't be important to me then.
    I'm pretty much right where you want to be; currently 217. And truth be told, I can feel a huge difference from 232 where I was when I started my recent weight loss regime. Still, I'd like to get to about 190.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

  24. #49
    Senior Member bbbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    What you say is inconsistent with what we know from scientific research.
    Hardly. I realize you've found a study you interpret to mean something different, but that doesn't translate to a total shift in thinking or conclusive proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    You assume that people who lose more slowly keep off their weight better than those who do a rapid weight loss diet. Well, there isn't research to support that. People just assume it is the case because it seems reasonable.
    Now you're making assumptions about my assumptions. What I actually said was 'long term change yields long term results'. "Long term" is the key concept. If you can keep up at 1000 calorie/4 hours of cycling a day regimen in the long term, you'll certainly lose weight and keep it off, but I doubt many can keep that sort of thing up for too long.

    Consider - you gained weight for a reason. At the simplest level, you were consuming more calories than you were burning. If you reverse that trend for, say 6 months (i.e. short term change), but then return to the eating and exercise habits you had before, you will simply gain the weight back. On the other hand, if you change your eating and exercise habits long term and keep your consumption and exercise in balance, you will reach a stable weight and stay there.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    Of course, it does come down to calories in, calories out. But that omits the big issue of why we overeat. Do you know that appetite hormones go way out of whack when you lose weight? Do you know all the factors that drive appetite? Do you know the effect of depression or other life events on eating behaviors? Do you know how your brain responds to the sight of certain foods? Do you know the impact of genetics on susceptibility to weight gain and on eating behaviors?
    Yes. I know those things both from my own reserch and personal experience. Thank you so much for the opportunity to establish my bona fides.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    Now tell me about a sustainable long term solution that is a Solution.
    I can tell you what worked for me, but I get the impression I'd just be inviting you to tell me all the reasons I can't continue to balance my consumption and exercise.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    I have difficulty explaining to people why lifestyle changes sometimes just are not sustainable and the extent of lifestyle changes that might be necessary. You equate not-sustainable to simply not sticking with changes. Sure, it is true that people do not stick with all the changes they made, after all, they do start of overeat. The question is why. The answer is not a simple answer but the important point is that desire alone is clearly not sufficient to keep off weight. And people find that hard to handle because people do love the illusion of control. We want to be in control of our lives and what happens to us. I do as well. After all, I lost weight despite the poor odds of keeping it off. But, given I know the odds are bad I try to find as many tools as I can to help my desire overcome my biology and my psychology and hope that the longer I keep off the weight the better my odds become of continuing to keep it off.

    By way of example: I lost a lot of weight. I lost it at the rate of a pound a week. I got down to low to mid normal weight a couple of years ago. The desire I have to keep off that weight is boundless. I do not want to be obese ever again. I do not want lie in bed feeling the weight of myself and the pain in my back. I do not want to look at those pictures of obese me. I do not want to face my friends with a new fat self. I do not want to seem a loser, a failure. I want to ride my bike mile after mile. I want to hike. I want to sleep well. I want to feel good. I want to live a long and healthy life. My whole life I have been a highly competitive person. Gaining weight is totally inconsistent with how I view myself and how I want to be.

    Yet, in the past few months I increased my body weight by 10%

    I am addressing it with a rigid set of rules regarding eating and other behavior modification techniques. I do not do well without that rigidity. YMMV. Either way, I am yo-yoing.



    A taste of what it may require.

    Hopefully, compliance got easier for her overtime as her body adapted.
    I have no idea what your point is here, but I suspect you're working under the delusion that the rest of us don't have the same grasp of the subject you do. While that is possible, I doubt it. I

    BB
    www.beancotton.com
    Formerly Fastest of the Slow Riders, Currently Slowest of the Fast Riders



    http://veloviewer.com/athlete/2615827/

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldfinch View Post
    What you say is inconsistent with what we know from scientific research. You assume that people who lose more slowly keep off their weight better than those who do a rapid weight loss diet. Well, there isn't research to support that. People just assume it is the case because it seems reasonable.

    Of course, it does come down to calories in, calories out. But that omits the big issue of why we overeat. Do you know that appetite hormones go way out of whack when you lose weight? Do you know all the factors that drive appetite? Do you know the effect of depression or other life events on eating behaviors? Do you know how your brain responds to the sight of certain foods? Do you know the impact of genetics on susceptibility to weight gain and on eating behaviors?

    All it would take is a hundred extra calories a day, hardly anything. And you end up with 11-12 extra pounds a year.

    Now tell me about a sustainable long term solution that is a Solution.

    I have difficulty explaining to people why lifestyle changes sometimes just are not sustainable and the extent of lifestyle changes that might be necessary. You equate not-sustainable to simply not sticking with changes. Sure, it is true that people do not stick with all the changes they made, after all, they do start of overeat. The question is why. The answer is not a simple answer but the important point is that desire alone is clearly not sufficient to keep off weight. And people find that hard to handle because people do love the illusion of control. We want to be in control of our lives and what happens to us. I do as well. After all, I lost weight despite the poor odds of keeping it off. But, given I know the odds are bad I try to find as many tools as I can to help my desire overcome my biology and my psychology and hope that the longer I keep off the weight the better my odds become of continuing to keep it off.

    By way of example: I lost a lot of weight. I lost it at the rate of a pound a week. I got down to low to mid normal weight a couple of years ago. The desire I have to keep off that weight is boundless. I do not want to be obese ever again. I do not want lie in bed feeling the weight of myself and the pain in my back. I do not want to look at those pictures of obese me. I do not want to face my friends with a new fat self. I do not want to seem a loser, a failure. I want to ride my bike mile after mile. I want to hike. I want to sleep well. I want to feel good. I want to live a long and healthy life. My whole life I have been a highly competitive person. Gaining weight is totally inconsistent with how I view myself and how I want to be.

    Yet, in the past few months I increased my body weight by 10%

    I am addressing it with a rigid set of rules regarding eating and other behavior modification techniques. I do not do well without that rigidity. YMMV. Either way, I am yo-yoing.



    A taste of what it may require.

    Hopefully, compliance got easier for her overtime as her body adapted.
    Uh, you answered your own question with rigidity, and that is what I mentioned earlier in this thread -- those who keep it off the longest record calories the longest -- even perpetually...

    It is that RIGIDITY that makes it work.

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