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genejockey 09-20-13 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinch (Post 16086858)
A taste of what it may require.

We each bring our own genetics and such to the table. In my case, my diet doesn't need to be that restrictive to lose weight, because my diet prior to this was really bad - fast food, crappy snacks, 'defensive eating', handfuls of 'bite size' candybars, soft drinks, beer, not enough salads, too many potatoes. I think I was probably consuming about 3000 calories a day.

In her case, it requires a much more restrictive approach. Her metabolism has shifted a bit, so that she now finds too much fat or oil causes her GI distress.

Quote:

Hopefully, compliance got easier for her overtime as her body adapted.
The hardest part was telling my Mom she wouldn't be eating the leg of lamb with potatoes and gravy that the rest of us were having. Mom had very definite ideas about how other people should accept her hospitality! :lol:

goldfinch 09-20-13 04:12 PM

EDITED because I thought my response was missing the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbbean (Post 16086921)
Hardly. I realize you've found a study you interpret to mean something different, but that doesn't translate to a total shift in thinking or conclusive proof.

My point was that there is no evidence that taking off weight slowly is better than taking it off quickly. I rarely claim conclusive proof, as can be seen from my signature.

Quote:

Now you're making assumptions about my assumptions. What I actually said was 'long term change yields long term results'. "Long term" is the key concept. If you can keep up at 1000 calorie/4 hours of cycling a day regimen in the long term, you'll certainly lose weight and keep it off, but I doubt many can keep that sort of thing up for too long.
I reviewed your previous post again and see that much of what you were saying had to do with the problems of continuing with short term dramatic changes, like intense exercise and ultra low calorie diets. I am sorry, I did rather ignore that point. I ignored it because no one wants to continue with an ultra low calorie diet when the weight is off, they will begin a maintenance program. I am not aware that it is any harder to transition from an ultra low calorie diet to a maintenance diet than it is to transition from a less dramatic diet to a maintenance diet. What research there is does not indicate that it is harder. Both are hard.

As far as overdoing it with exercise, you may be right. People might burn themselves out with over exercise and drop the program. I don't know.


Quote:

Consider - you gained weight for a reason. At the simplest level, you were consuming more calories than you were burning. If you reverse that trend for, say 6 months (i.e. short term change), but then return to the eating and exercise habits you had before, you will simply gain the weight back. On the other hand, if you change your eating and exercise habits long term and keep your consumption and exercise in balance, you will reach a stable weight and stay there.
Funny that it rarely happens. You don't even need to go back to bad habits. You can get fat on a 100 calories extra a day. The metabolic hit those who lost weight is likely higher than that.

Quote:

Yes. I know those things both from my own reserch and personal experience. Thank you so much for the opportunity to establish my bona fides.
OK, then you know it isn't easy for many and the odds are against you and that my first point is true, long term changes are not sustainable for many.

Quote:

I can tell you what worked for me, but I get the impression I'd just be inviting you to tell me all the reasons I can't continue to balance my consumption and exercise.
If you are achieving that balance, great! Why would I tell you that you are not if you are? Why would I even tell someone that they will fail? I don't tell myself that. It may not be common but there are people who keep lost weight off. All of us here want to be one of the few.


Quote:

I have no idea what your point is here, but I suspect you're working under the delusion that the rest of us don't have the same grasp of the subject you do. While that is possible, I doubt it. I

BB
I think I made my point adequately. We are talking past each other. You say eat less and change your lifestyle with the view to the long term and you will keep the weight off. I keep saying that there are reasons why many people can't keep that up.

I did think about your comment, that I think that I know more than the rest of you. Basically, that I am patronizing. I am sorry if I come off that way. I do think that there are not a lot of posters on this forum that have read as much research on weight loss as I have. I am a research junkie. I am retired. I have a lot of free time and access to journals. :) I am sure that there are others like me as well. But I am the person who generally cites research. I don't do it as much as I used to because often my posts were not well received. Because the research finding rarely had encouraging messages I pretty much dropped posting about them. I don't want to be a party pooper.

goldfinch 09-20-13 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Markets (Post 16086928)
Uh, you answered your own question with rigidity, and that is what I mentioned earlier in this thread -- those who keep it off the longest record calories the longest -- even perpetually...

It is that RIGIDITY that makes it work.

Seems that way. I have said that most need to be obsessive to keep off lost weight. What I can't answer and what no one else here can answer is whether a particular person can keep up with the behavioral changes required to keep off the weight.

What the evidence points to is that a person who loses weight must exercise more and eat less than a person of equivalent weight who never got fat.

EDIT: Sorry Doohickie for derailing your thread. I do like MyFitnessPal. :)

genejockey 09-21-13 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinch (Post 16087634)
Seems that way. I have said that most need to be obsessive to keep off lost weight. What I can't answer and what no one else here can answer is whether a particular person can keep up with the behavioral changes required to keep off the weight.

Ah! The intersection of physiology and psychology.

I have some experience with anxiety disorders and some of the behaviors that they can lead to, so while I was at first inclined to be judgmental and say that people CAN, but WON'T, I now grasp better what you're saying. That is, my first inclination would have been to say they just lack willpower, but as I think about it I realize that it's really not that simple. It's like telling someone in the grip of clinical depression that they just need to 'try harder' - it borders on cruelty.

Quote:

What the evidence points to is that a person who loses weight must exercise more and eat less than a person of equivalent weight who never got fat.
I believe this is largely accurate. Eternal vigilance is the price of losing weight.:lol:

Quote:

EDIT: Sorry Doohickie for derailing your thread. I do like MyFitnessPal. :)
Derailing a thread? Threads exist to get derailed! Are you new to the internet? ;)

goldfinch 09-21-13 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 16089493)
Ah! The intersection of physiology and psychology.

I have some experience with anxiety disorders and some of the behaviors that they can lead to, so while I was at first inclined to be judgmental and say that people CAN, but WON'T, I now grasp better what you're saying. That is, my first inclination would have been to say they just lack willpower, but as I think about it I realize that it's really not that simple. It's like telling someone in the grip of clinical depression that they just need to 'try harder' - it borders on cruelty.

Said so much better than I could. Thanks.

Doohickie 09-23-13 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldfinch (Post 16087634)
EDIT: Sorry Doohickie for derailing your thread. I do like MyFitnessPal. :)

No complaint here. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 16089493)
Ah! The intersection of physiology and psychology.

I have some experience with anxiety disorders and some of the behaviors that they can lead to, so while I was at first inclined to be judgmental and say that people CAN, but WON'T, I now grasp better what you're saying. That is, my first inclination would have been to say they just lack willpower, but as I think about it I realize that it's really not that simple. It's like telling someone in the grip of clinical depression that they just need to 'try harder' - it borders on cruelty.

Or to tell an addict to simply quit. You can't do it and expect success without providing the addict tools to help them quit.

Which actually brings up an interesting thought: Some of us who are overweight got that way because we are "addicted to eating." Once we start we find it difficult to stop, and binge to excess. Unlike other addictions, though, we can't give up eating cold turkey. If you do that you will eventually starve to death. You can give up smoking entirely, or alcohol entirely, but you can't give up eating. Yet it's a similar behavior as it is for drug addiction. I don't know what that means...just an observation.

genejockey 09-23-13 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doohickie (Post 16095075)
Which actually brings up an interesting thought: Some of us who are overweight got that way because we are "addicted to eating." Once we start we find it difficult to stop, and binge to excess. Unlike other addictions, though, we can't give up eating cold turkey. If you do that you will eventually starve to death. You can give up smoking entirely, or alcohol entirely, but you can't give up eating. Yet it's a similar behavior as it is for drug addiction. I don't know what that means...just an observation.

That's a very good point. One reason cigarettes and alcohol are hard to give up is because both are socially accepted parts of our culture, though cigarettes are becoming less so. With illicit drugs, you have to go out and find them. Alcohol and cigarettes are everywhere. Food, even more so!

What it means is that you have to change your relationship to food. For me, food can be a distraction when I'm anxious. For example, sometimes when I'm designing an experiment or preparing a presentation, I find myself getting up and going to find some food. I'm not hungry, really, just want a break, but going to grab a Coke or a candy bar takes me away from whatever's making me anxious for a bit.

I discovered that I can't 'cut down' on that. I had to stop it completely. No Cokes AT ALL, not just cutting down to having one with lunch. No candy bars AT ALL, not just fewer. Biggest problem is dealing with the anxiety that drives me to look for a distraction. So I spend too much time on BikeForums, instead!

Doohickie 09-23-13 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 16095144)
What it means is that you have to change your relationship to food. For me, food can be a distraction when I'm anxious. For example, sometimes when I'm designing an experiment or preparing a presentation, I find myself getting up and going to find some food. I'm not hungry, really, just want a break, but going to grab a Coke or a candy bar takes me away from whatever's making me anxious for a bit.

I discovered that I can't 'cut down' on that. I had to stop it completely. No Cokes AT ALL, not just cutting down to having one with lunch. No candy bars AT ALL, not just fewer. Biggest problem is dealing with the anxiety that drives me to look for a distraction. So I spend too much time on BikeForums, instead!

With MyFitnessPal I can more effectively limit that unneeded and unplanned snacking while not getting rid of it altogether. As an engineer, I can follow the numbers. Basically, I try to consume half my calories before dinner, the other half with dinner and afterward. That gives me an incentive to not snack during the day. It allows me to have dessert at night, and maybe an after dinner snack besides. (But if I don't eat it, that's also okay, it just means a bigger calorie deficit.) If I find myself going over, it means I have to get out the bicycle and ride hard for a while to get out of the red, calorie-wise.

goldfinch 09-23-13 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doohickie (Post 16095159)
With MyFitnessPal I can more effectively limit that unneeded and unplanned snacking while not getting rid of it altogether. As an engineer, I can follow the numbers. Basically, I try to consume half my calories before dinner, the other half with dinner and afterward. That gives me an incentive to not snack during the day. It allows me to have dessert at night, and maybe an after dinner snack besides. (But if I don't eat it, that's also okay, it just means a bigger calorie deficit.) If I find myself going over, it means I have to get out the bicycle and ride hard for a while to get out of the red, calorie-wise.

This is what I do. I find it best to leave half my calories for the end of the day.

Mr. Markets 10-09-13 01:38 AM

Fourteen weeks and 5 days in, and I am down 30.2lbs using Lose It! (the other MyFitnessPal). My goal was 2lbs/wk.

As of now I am "right on track"! Not every week is constant, but it's all working just as it should.

I cannot recommend these kind of apps more highly. Tracking is the ONLY thing that has ever worked for me.

Half way there now!

Reelin 10-09-13 09:03 AM

I have been using MFP for 67 days and I have lost 29 pounds!!!

bbbean 10-09-13 09:56 AM

Conrats to both of you!

squirtdad 10-09-13 11:04 AM

I just started using it... .I had experimented with it vs Livestrong a while back and thought Livestrong was better.

Since then it seems like there have been a lot of upgrades and way more foods pre populated. It seems tons better than it was 6 months ago.

resulst....will check in in 60 days

Mr. Markets 10-09-13 01:03 PM

Haven't used MFP or LS, just www.loseit.com and the database has been pretty good. I am also a simple eater so that helps!

Doohickie 10-10-13 03:16 PM

Just a quick check-in.

I had a business trip this week. Fortunately, one of my two traveling partners has also lost weight recently and we went to Applebee's for dinner while traveling. They have a section of the menu that has dinners for under 550 calories. I ate well and when I got back home I had lost another pound. Basically, I had a Starbucks Healthy Start Breakfast Sandwich at the hotel (egg McMuffin kind of thing on flatbread with turkey and egg whites for 390 calories), a salad for lunch, and Applebee's for dinner. Tuesday night I splurged and even had one of their (small) desserts.

Net result: I came home a pound lighter.

squirtdad 10-10-13 05:42 PM

what I am seeing more clearly easily is what a difference there is in similar things

example: ran late this morning and got breakfast at our cafeteria.

sesame bagel, 2 eggs, 2 strips bacon 559 cal 55 carb 24 fat 31 protein salt 1009

yesterday made break fast at home

sprouted wheat bread, egg beaers 220 cal, 32 carb, 0 fat 22 protein 530 salt

that visibilyt is helping make good decisions easier

mrodgers 10-11-13 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirtdad (Post 16150561)
what I am seeing more clearly easily is what a difference there is in similar things

example: ran late this morning and got breakfast at our cafeteria.

sesame bagel, 2 eggs, 2 strips bacon 559 cal 55 carb 24 fat 31 protein salt 1009

yesterday made break fast at home

sprouted wheat bread, egg beaers 220 cal, 32 carb, 0 fat 22 protein 530 salt

that visibilyt is helping make good decisions easier

Yeah, not similar, but I have problems when I'm running late as well. I don't have much time to eat, the earlier leave for work and get in, the more I get paid. I eat a bowl of Cheerios every morning, 200 calories, very little sugar. Running late this morning and didn't have time to eat my Cheerios. Grabbed a pack of the kids' PopTarts out of the cupboard to take with me, 400 calories and a lot of sugar (of course, I could have eaten just 1 out of the package, but I didnt'...)

Wish I had a cafeteria, but then again, that might not be a good option. All I have is vending machines.

genejockey 10-11-13 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrodgers (Post 16151935)
Wish I had a cafeteria, but then again, that might not be a good option. All I have is vending machines.

That's why I had to start bringing lunch - no cafeteria, just several fast food places and taquerias nearby. It's WAY too easy to just grab 1500 calories for lunch! Instead, most days I have a sandwich and an apple, with a big glass of cold water.

lsberrios1 10-11-13 08:54 AM

Just transferred from MyPlate to MyFitnessPal and it is much better. Here is hoping that I reach target weight by the end of the year.

Jarrett2 10-11-13 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Markets (Post 16145152)
Fourteen weeks and 5 days in, and I am down 30.2lbs using Lose It! (the other MyFitnessPal). My goal was 2lbs/wk. As of now I am "right on track"! Not every week is constant, but it's all working just as it should.I cannot recommend these kind of apps more highly. Tracking is the ONLY thing that has ever worked for me.Half way there now!

Congrats man! I've been using Lose It! since April 1st. Today is 100lbs down :) Pretty surreal. It is the only thing that's ever worked for me as well.

mrodgers 10-11-13 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 16151998)
That's why I had to start bringing lunch - no cafeteria, just several fast food places and taquerias nearby. It's WAY too easy to just grab 1500 calories for lunch! Instead, most days I have a sandwich and an apple, with a big glass of cold water.

Fast food places? I don't even have that (and that definitely is a good thing.) I don't get a lunch break. I work while I eat. I never understood the whole "home cooking" confusion on just about all off-topic forums as I've never eaten out. My wife has made homemade and home cooked meals since we got married. Why does 90% of the US eat out constantly? Eating out is an every few month treat for us, and it certainly isn't crappy fast food (when I can get a good real beef hamburger and fries for 4 for the same cost at a real restaurant as I can with fast food.)

genejockey 10-11-13 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrodgers (Post 16152835)
Fast food places? I don't even have that (and that definitely is a good thing.) I don't get a lunch break. I work while I eat. I never understood the whole "home cooking" confusion on just about all off-topic forums as I've never eaten out. My wife has made homemade and home cooked meals since we got married. Why does 90% of the US eat out constantly? Eating out is an every few month treat for us, and it certainly isn't crappy fast food (when I can get a good real beef hamburger and fries for 4 for the same cost at a real restaurant as I can with fast food.)

At work, there's a Wendy's 2 minutes away, a McDonalds, a KFC, and a Taco Bell 5 minutes away, and half a dozen taquerias within that same distance. In the morning, making a sandwich takes time and you have to remember to do it.

As for why so many people eat out so much, many families have two working parents, who get home tired, hungry, and cranky. And often the temptation to go someplace and let someone else do the cooking is too great. And fast food around here is much cheaper than eating in a real restaurant. Probably half the price, or even less, to get a fast food burger vs. a good burger at a good place.

Where I grew up, this wasn't a problem. The nearest fast food was a 20 minute drive. The only restaurant closer served food about the same quality as a school cafeteria. Blech.

Mr. Markets 10-11-13 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarrett2 (Post 16152381)
Congrats man! I've been using Lose It! since April 1st. Today is 100lbs down :) Pretty surreal. It is the only thing that's ever worked for me as well.

Now THAT is impressive! 100lbs in six months -- WOW! That's 4lbs/wk avge.

I just shoot for 2/wk and it it all works well for me. I think i'd be starving to shoot for more. Hit 32lbs down today. 28 to goal, 38 for bonus points! :D

Did you hit your goal, or are you still at it? How about 'loose skin'? That is a big part of my not wanting to go for more than 2/wk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by genejockey (Post 16153008)
At work, there's a Wendy's 2 minutes away, a McDonalds, a KFC, and a Taco Bell 5 minutes away, and half a dozen taquerias within that same distance. In the morning, making a sandwich takes time and you have to remember to do it.

As for why so many people eat out so much, many families have two working parents, who get home tired, hungry, and cranky. And often the temptation to go someplace and let someone else do the cooking is too great. And fast food around here is much cheaper than eating in a real restaurant. Probably half the price, or even less, to get a fast food burger vs. a good burger at a good place.

Where I grew up, this wasn't a problem. The nearest fast food was a 20 minute drive. The only restaurant closer served food about the same quality as a school cafeteria. Blech.

Taco Bell -- 3 hard shell tacos with 'beef' fresco style is about 450-475 cals. Very edible as I still do it at times.

McD's egg mcmuffin is also very edible if you toss the muffin away.

Mr. Markets 10-11-13 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doohickie (Post 16150173)
Just a quick check-in.

I had a business trip this week. Fortunately, one of my two traveling partners has also lost weight recently and we went to Applebee's for dinner while traveling. They have a section of the menu that has dinners for under 550 calories. I ate well and when I got back home I had lost another pound. Basically, I had a Starbucks Healthy Start Breakfast Sandwich at the hotel (egg McMuffin kind of thing on flatbread with turkey and egg whites for 390 calories), a salad for lunch, and Applebee's for dinner. Tuesday night I splurged and even had one of their (small) desserts.

Net result: I came home a pound lighter.

Those are the best!

Quote:

Originally Posted by squirtdad (Post 16150561)
what I am seeing more clearly easily is what a difference there is in similar things

example: ran late this morning and got breakfast at our cafeteria.

sesame bagel, 2 eggs, 2 strips bacon 559 cal 55 carb 24 fat 31 protein salt 1009

yesterday made break fast at home

sprouted wheat bread, egg beaers 220 cal, 32 carb, 0 fat 22 protein 530 salt

that visibilyt is helping make good decisions easier

Amazing how minor substitutions make such major differences. I think a huge part of my success is giving up pretty much all grains an dairy except what may be in some processed foods. No more bread or similar) and no more milk (and I loved the stuff too!). By not drinking cals I get to eat more, and by watching what I eat I get to eat more still.

Not fully 'paleo' here but pretty darn close and it really works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrodgers (Post 16151935)
Yeah, not similar, but I have problems when I'm running late as well. I don't have much time to eat, the earlier leave for work and get in, the more I get paid. I eat a bowl of Cheerios every morning, 200 calories, very little sugar. Running late this morning and didn't have time to eat my Cheerios. Grabbed a pack of the kids' PopTarts out of the cupboard to take with me, 400 calories and a lot of sugar (of course, I could have eaten just 1 out of the package, but I didnt'...)

Wish I had a cafeteria, but then again, that might not be a good option. All I have is vending machines.

Sugar is the devil all wrapped up in tasty packages. Put some nuts in some bags and keep them in the car just in case.

mrodgers 10-11-13 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Markets (Post 16153517)
Taco Bell -- 3 hard shell tacos with 'beef' fresco style is about 450-475 cals. Very edible as I still do it at times.

McD's egg mcmuffin is also very edible if you toss the muffin away.

Yuck! Neither of those are edible, LOL. Burger King is more edible than those. Wendy's or Arby's when I do have fast food is my go-to. On the way home from vacation though, I said I haven't eaten at a Hardy's since I was a little kid as there are none around. We were looking for quick breaks from driving on a 14 hour drive and sought out a Hardy's. It was delicious.


Now here's my problem here pretty soon. I have a 2 day off-site meeting to go to. First part of the meeting will be Wednesday in which I'll have to leave work around lunch time and we will probably car pool and who I'll be with will probably want to stop somewhere for lunch. Then after the meeting is dinner, which, heck, when it's a free meal, you bet I'm not worried about any diet. It's the only time I get a decent steak. Following day will start the meeting in the morning and lunch will be right afterwards. 9 times out of 10 the lunch menu is set and often the dinner menu when we do these things is set with a limited menu like NY Strip or fish, and I don't eat fish. That's going to be a rough week, especially with a birthday party for my daughter thrown into the mix as well.


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