Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: New wheel build

  1. #1
    Senior Member jdfriesen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Abbotsford, BC
    My Bikes
    2012 Ridley Excalibur
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    New wheel build

    I'm currently 230 lbs but slowly heading in the right direction. My bike came with a set of Reynolds Solitudes in 20/24. I've had a number of issues with the rear wheels. Not a surprise I know and I sort of suspected that I would. When I first got the bike I expressed my concerns on the Road Cycling forum and it was suggested to just ride them. The thinking being I already had them and they might last. Even if they didn't I would have learned enough about what I want to make a better next wheel decision.

    So that's where I'm at. My plan is to use Pacenti SL23 rims in a 28/32 configuration. For hubs I want to use White Industries T11. I don't have 11 speed right now but don't want to build new wheels that don't support it. I want to use Sapim cx-rays for the front and rear NDS. The rear DS I want to use Sapim race. That way I can get a better balance between DS and NDS tension.

    Anything glaringly wrong with that build plan? Anything else I should consider?

    John

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NZ
    My Bikes
    More than 1, but, less than S-1
    Posts
    3,807
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I haven't tried the SL23s. But, would like to. Ditto the WI T11s.

    The only thing that causes me to look out the corner of my eye on that build is your choice of CX-ray spokes. A 28/32 configuration is neither light weight nor aero. Why try to turn it into such? I've always been of the opinion that, unless one owns only one pair of wheels, training wheels should be reliable before all else and race/event day wheels can then be the light/aero/bling that they should be.

    However, at your weight and given the spoke count, as long as the build is of good quality, you should be fine. And, custom wheels are all about getting exactly what "you" want in a wheel, making your own value compromises and not being stuck with those of someone else or a profit driven corporation.

    Let us know how they hold up for you. I think there are quite a few people adopting the SL23s and a lot more of us waiting to hear how durable they are or aren't.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  3. #3
    SuperGimp TrojanHorse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Whittier, CA
    My Bikes
    Specialized Roubaix
    Posts
    8,039
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Well, they're easier to keep straight if you're building it yourself...

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    My Bikes
    Cervelo RS, Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Schwinn Typhoon, Nashbar touring, custom steel MTB
    Posts
    5,174
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jdfriesen View Post
    Anything glaringly wrong with that build plan? Anything else I should consider?
    What's your goal for this build? You've selected expensive, light-weight aero rims and spokes but you're apparently looking for better durability and you've chosen a heavier, less aerodynamic 28/32-spoke configuration.

    First thing I'd do: forget about being aerodynamic. If you want aero you need to start with 45+mm deep carbon fiber rims. Everything else is pretty much useless. Rather than paying $3/spoke for CX-Rays, I'd go for standard double-butted spokes at $1 each. At your weight, I'd consider using a 20/24 or 24/28 spokes. If you have a good wheel builder and can live with a non-sexy 3-cross lacing, you shouldn't need 28/32 spokes. If you want radial, 2X, or some other sexy lacing pattern then I would stick with 28/32.

    The next thing you need to do is decide if you really want a 23mm wide rim or not. They sound like a recipe for pinch flats to me, but I know they're popular at the moment. If you want a wide rim, I'd suggest the Velocity A23 and A23 OC. They're almost as pricey as the Pacenti SL23, but at least you get something for your money: the off-center drilling will lead to much more even spoke tension between the drive and non-drive sides of the wheel. That should increase the longevity of the wheel. I used the Velocity Synergy OC rim on my touring bike and have been very happy with the results. Built the wheels four years ago and I'll probably need to true them, for the first time, this winter. If you don't need a wide rim, then I'd go for something like the Kinlin XR-270 or XR-300. They're half the price of the Pacenti SL23. You might also look at the Velocity Fusion. They're not quite as deep as the XR-270 or XR-300 but might be easier to find.

    As far as hubs go, I haven't looked into 11-speed compatibility so I'm not sure what to recommend there. Your proposed build includes top-notch components, so I'll make one suggestion: consider buying a PowerTap G3 hub. They are 11-speed compatible and nothing will do more to improve your workouts than to start training with power...

  5. #5
    Senior Member jdfriesen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Abbotsford, BC
    My Bikes
    2012 Ridley Excalibur
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The cx-ray spokes are one thing I have gone back and forth on. The other (certainly more economically friendly option) I was, and still am considering is replacing the cx-rays with Sapim lasers. That will still give me the ability to balance the NDS and DS tension, and save me some money in the process. In all honesty a big part of the aero spokes is the look not because I am going to get any noticeable performance boost.

    I am planning on building the wheels myself. I am very much a DIYer, and I have certainly had some experience maintaining my current set of wheels. It wasn't just me maintaining my current set though. My LBS trued them a couple times with no longer between problems than when I did it myself.

    I am planning on doing 3x front and back. I don't want to do less than 28/32. Reliability is my primary concern. I want to go with one of the wider rims as I want to be able to run a bit lower pressures, and want to experience the related improved ride quality I hear people rave about. In reading reviews of all the different wide rims it seemed to come down to either the Hed C2 or the Pacenti SL23. It seemed to me in my reading that those two were at the top of the heap with opinions varying as to which was "better". Given that the Pacenti is cheaper I decided to go that way.

    I live just outside Vancouver, BC, and use my bike for commuting most days as well so that played a big role in my hub choice. The T11's are supposed to be easily user serviceable without any expensive tools. That's what pretty much eliminated the Chris King R45's for me. I couldn't justify the additional $180 for the service tool. Given my location riding in the rain is a very common occurrence, so that ease of serviceability is important.

    The rain (and the significant additional expense) are what keeps me from getting a PowerTap. I would like a power meter eventually but I think I will likely go with a crank based model. Although I have read of lots of users that haven't had issues with the G3's in the rain I have read enough that have that I just don't feel comfortable going that way.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NZ
    My Bikes
    More than 1, but, less than S-1
    Posts
    3,807
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'm being a bit padantic, but, it's not "tension" that you're equalizing by going to a lighter spoke on the NDS. It's "elongation" that you're effecting. The requisite tension to achieve correct dish remains constant for a given bracing angle. By utilizing a thinner spoke you achieve greater elongation of that spoke, than you would a thicker one, while achieving the same tension.

    If durability/reliability are high on your list you might rethink the thin Lazer/CX-ray route and reconsider using standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 DB spokes. The other thing you might investigate is the flange width of the White Industries hubs compared to other options.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
    My Bikes
    86 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.
    Posts
    7,376
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Have you considered 15/16 DB front & rear NDS + 14/15 DB rear DS?

    I built a set last Winter using 32H Sun Rims M13 II and that spoke combination.

    With about 30 miles on the build, I dropped the rear wheel into an "old fashioned" storm sewer grate at the motel I'd just checked into.
    It bounced my 230 lb. butt about 8" into the air.
    It knocked the wheel out of true about 3mm, but It didn't ruin my vacation.

    About 10 minutes with the truing stand and tension meter when I got back home and all is good.
    It did "flare" the rim slightly, but not noticeable to the naked eye.

    Anyway, the spokes did their job!

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    108
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    This thread is pretty much right up my alley. I too am a DIYer looking to build my first wheelset, and I too had settled on the SL-23 rims and CX-Ray spokes. I'm doing a 32/32 setup, but only because my chosen front hub, the Shimano Ultegra 6800, doesn't come in less than 32h. I'd have been willing to go with 28h, but no lower, if this hub supported it. Going with something like Dura-Ace, which does support it, is simply not in the budget right now.

    At my current weight of around 270lbs, I figure I'll bear the additional 20 grams or so of four more spokes, and enjoy the peace of mind of knowing that my wheel will be strong and durable, even with the lightweight spokes and alloy nipples.

    I've currently got around 2000 miles on the 20-spoke front wheel that came with my bike, and it's been uneventful so far, but I've always got this little niggling worry that one of these days while flying down a steep mountain rode at 45 mph, leaning into a turn, something bad is going to happen with the front wheel. And at that speed, something bad is something really bad.

    Here's my thinking regarding aero and weight and whatnot. I'm a big guy (6'2.5", 270lbs and falling), and a 32h or at least 28h wheel is what would really give me peace of mind. This means this wheel is going to weigh more than one with fewer spokes. That can't be helped. I don't subscribe to the "well it's already gonna be a little heavier, may as well be a lot heavier" philosophy. If anything, the weight cost of going from the CX-Rays to something heavier is even worse on a 32h wheel because the weight difference is multiplied by even more spokes. I estimate that the weight savings of CX-Rays and alloy nipples, compared to typical DB spokes, for a 32h wheel, will be on the order of 65-70 grams.

    As far as aero goes, while a 32h isn't going to be as aero as a 20h wheel, a 32h wheel with CX-Rays will still be more aero than a 32h wheel with DB spokes.

    In other words, given I've accepted the weight and aero penalties of a higher spoke count wheel, those penalties will still be minimized by going with the lighter, more aero spokes.

    As far as my choice of hub, I like cup and cone bearings, the new ultegra 6800 has the new "digital" adjustment that's supposed to make it really easy to adjust the bearings. The new hub has the angled bearing surface, whatever that means, and the 6800, compared to the 6700 and previous, has the new wider diameter aluminum axle. At the end of the day, unless I have a hell of a lot more money to spend, for the money I trust Shimano stuff, and I'll feel good with a nice black Shimano 6800 front and rear hub.

    I didn't order everything yet, still saving funds with each paycheck. I ordered the front hub already, will order the spokes and rims next, and then the rear hub in a month or so. I'm more worried about replacing the front wheel sooner than later. My rear wheel is already a brute of a 32h low-tech wheel purchased used to get back on the road after my 24h hub broke when I hit a nasty crack in the road.
    Last edited by SethAZ; 11-11-13 at 10:43 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    My Bikes
    Cervelo RS, Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Schwinn Typhoon, Nashbar touring, custom steel MTB
    Posts
    5,174
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jdfriesen View Post
    The cx-ray spokes are one thing I have gone back and forth on. The other (certainly more economically friendly option) I was, and still am considering is replacing the cx-rays with Sapim lasers. That will still give me the ability to balance the NDS and DS tension, and save me some money in the process. In all honesty a big part of the aero spokes is the look not because I am going to get any noticeable performance boost.
    At your weight, the Sapim Laser, a 2.0/1.5/2.0 butted spoke, is not an appropriate choice. At least not for the DS spokes. When I was having my PowerTap wheelset built, the wheelsmith told me he no longer recommended 2.0/1.5/2.0 spokes for riders over 150lbs. Even when combined with a heavier DS spoke, he had enough problems with them that he decided it wasn't worth the hassle. I was 50lbs lighter than you are and he recommended DT Swiss Competition spokes for my build. That's what I went with, in a 24F/28R combo. No problems so far.

    If you want an aero spoke for the looks, go with the CX-Ray. Personally, I'd stick to standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 double-butted spokes. Think: DT Swiss Competition, Sapim Force (or Race), or Wheelsmith DB14.

    I am planning on doing 3x front and back. I don't want to do less than 28/32. Reliability is my primary concern. I want to go with one of the wider rims as I want to be able to run a bit lower pressures, and want to experience the related improved ride quality I hear people rave about.
    My understanding is that the current Big Thing is to run 23mm tires on a 23mm wide rim. This is done primarily for aerodynamics, rather than comfort. I would think that you'd need to run the same or higher pressures, that the ride would be more harsh and that you might be more prone to pinch flats since you've flattened the tire profile by stretching it across a wider rim. Maybe I'm wrong? You could always try running a 700x20 tire on your current 19mm rims to get a feel for how the new wheelset will work.

    In any event, I'm pretty convinced that the A23 OC rim would lead to a stronger wheel than the C2 or SL23. Tension on the NDS spokes on my Synergy OC wheels was 85% of the DS tension. With a non-OC rim the NDS spokes would have been around 60% of the DS tension. More even tension can't help but lead to a more durable wheel, in my opinion. So far, I've noticed that the Synergy OC wheels need less truing than any other wheelset I own. They were the first, and only wheels, I've built, so you know it wasn't the builder that made the difference!

  10. #10
    Senior Member jdfriesen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Abbotsford, BC
    My Bikes
    2012 Ridley Excalibur
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    The other thing you might investigate is the flange width of the White Industries hubs compared to other options.
    That was my one area of concern with going with the T11. However I couldn't find anyone who was using them that was actually having difficulties because of it. That's also why I wanted to use the heavier spokes on the drive side. I know the R45s have a bit better ratio but as I mentioned earlier, user serviceability without purchasing expensive tools is a concern for me.

  11. #11
    Klaatu..Verata..Necktie? genejockey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    SF Bay Area
    My Bikes
    Battaglin MAX, Chorus kit; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, 7410 Dura Ace
    Posts
    1,099
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've got 4000 trouble-free miles on White Industries hubs, 28/32 with Sapim 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes and Velocity Fusion rims. They haven't needed truing since the build, and they've held my (then)225-240 bl weight with no problems despite my affinity for hitting rocks and potholes.
    "Don’t take life so serious—it ain’t nohow permanent."

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NZ
    My Bikes
    More than 1, but, less than S-1
    Posts
    3,807
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Guys,

    For a "first build" I would really recommend against the CX-Rays. And, definately against alloy nipples. And, silly light Lazer spokes because of both wind up and that they are simply too light for 230#+ clyde builds.

    The conventional wisdom for a first build would be to stick with brass nipples and either 14ga straight or, if you are mechanically inclined and patient, 14/15DB. Become proficient at wheel building, truing and tension balancing before you start introducing bling components.

    At the rider and component weights we're discussing 60-70 grams in spokes and nipples is NOTHING.

    The reason I brought up the flange width of the T11s without elaborating further was to get JDF to start thinking about the relationship between flange width, bracing angle and subsequent tension equality between the two sides. Wider left flanges provide a greater bracing angle, but, result in lower NDS tension to achieve proper dish. The wider the flange, the more inclined I would be to use a lighter gauge spoke in order to achieve sufficient elongation and prevent nipples from backing off as the consequence of the rim shifting left from inadequate DS bracing angle.

    The DS/right flange width is more or less dictated by the cassette width and there are only differences of tenths of a mm between most the major brands. It's narrow bracing angle is the primary contributor to the rims ability to shift left under lateral load. Presuming that regardless of spoke used, it will be tensioned to the structural limit of the rim or spoke holes, the most effective way to combat left shift of the rim is through the use of thicker spokes which are less prone to further elongation.

    There are reasons why the clyde standard wheel recommendations exist. When it comes to producing a durable, reliable, economical, training wheel, 14/15DB with the possibility of introducing 14SS on the DS is hard to beat. When it comes to first efforts at wheels builds, most the advice over in the mechanics forum will be to start with straight gauge or if mechanically inclined heavy gauge double butted spokes and brass nipples.

    If the purpose of your wheels is something other than training and they're a second set reserved for event/race days then getting flash with lower spoke counts, aero spokes, light alloy nipples starts to make sense.

    I'm sorry that I sound like a curmudgeonly, old, buzz kill. But, I like hearing success stories about other clydes first wheel builds and how many thousands of miles they've racked up and pounds/kilos lost in the process.

    Aero spokes and alloy nipples really don't contribut to the aforementioned. Unless, they're what actually gets you onto the bike and out riding:-)
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  13. #13
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    My Bikes
    one for everything
    Posts
    7,107
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jdfriesen View Post
    The rear DS I want to use Sapim race. That way I can get a better balance between DS and NDS tension.
    the CX ray spoke is stiffer/stronger then a race spoke, if worried about tension get 1mm shorter NDS then recommend so you have some threads to give it max tension. I'd go CX ray spokes all around if your got the $$, I run them on 2 of my wheelsets.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Bill Kapaun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
    My Bikes
    86 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.
    Posts
    7,376
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jsigone View Post
    the CX ray spoke is stiffer/stronger then a race spoke, if worried about tension get 1mm shorter NDS then recommend so you have some threads to give it max tension. I'd go CX ray spokes all around if your got the $$, I run them on 2 of my wheelsets.
    It's about the DISH! You can only put a certain % of NDS tension vs DS tension.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Sunnyvale, CA USA
    Posts
    3,117
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by jsigone View Post
    the CX ray spoke is stiffer
    It's not. With a 1.8mm center section the race will be 44% stiffer than the CX ray which started life as a round 1.5mm spoke.

    /stronger then a race spoke,

    Yield strength on the race will be higher although even the CX-Ray will be strong enough. Sapim claims 1600 N/mm^2 on the C-Xray versus 1300 on the Race; although 44% more cross-section means yield strength on the Race is 17% higher.

    Fatigue life may be better on the CX-Ray but not enough to matter since properly built wheels won't break spokes for the first 300,000 miles using conventional double butted spokes.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 11-11-13 at 06:55 PM.

  16. #16
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    7,721
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    My understanding is that the current Big Thing is to run 23mm tires on a 23mm wide rim. This is done primarily for aerodynamics, rather than comfort. I would think that you'd need to run the same or higher pressures, that the ride would be more harsh and that you might be more prone to pinch flats since you've flattened the tire profile by stretching it across a wider rim. Maybe I'm wrong? You could always try running a 700x20 tire on your current 19mm rims to get a feel for how the new wheelset will work.
    Most people I've heard say that the wider rims allow lower presser without the risk of pinch flats (drop maybe 10-15 psi only) to make a more tubular like feel. Haven't tried it myself, but have been thinking about it when I get around to replacing the mavic cxp 33 rims on my current wheelset that are just about worn out (will probably go with the kinlin xc279 or the bhs version of them because my chorus hubs are 36h and that seems to be the only option for those - gonna be a heavy wheelset, but I'm not really that concerned).
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    108
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Guys,

    For a "first build" I would really recommend against the CX-Rays. And, definately against alloy nipples. And, silly light Lazer spokes because of both wind up and that they are simply too light for 230#+ clyde builds.

    The conventional wisdom for a first build would be to stick with brass nipples and either 14ga straight or, if you are mechanically inclined and patient, 14/15DB. Become proficient at wheel building, truing and tension balancing before you start introducing bling components.
    Bigfred, I tried to send this to you directly by PM, but I haven't posted enough on this board to earn that privilege, so I'm asking it here in public.

    I'm one of those guys who posted about my plans to use cx-rays and alloy nipples on my first build. I read your post with interest.

    I don't want to come across as argumentative, so let me state up front that I always like to think I respect the voice of experience, and as your comments reminded me of recommendations I've read along those same lines in other places from other people, a niggling thought in the back of my mind is telling me this is one of those times I need to defer to that voice of experience right now.

    Stilll, I'm mechanically inclined, fix my own cars, am learning to do all my own bike work, enjoy making things (I made two violins from scratch, an electric guitar, a tube guitar amplifier, and some other things), and used to work on helicopters part time in the reserves. That part of me is saying hey, I can do this. The other part of me is saying listen to the voice of experience you doofus!

    Are you willing to explain a little more about the reasons why you and others advise people like me to start out with simpler spokes, brass nipples, etc.? Btw, if I do bow to reason on this I'll go to double-butted spokes: straight gauge is a simplification too far for me. :-)

    I'm willing to be convinced. If I'm honest, I'm already nearly there. Are you willing to nudge me over the line with a little more detailed explanation of what pitfalls and stumbling blocks I'm up against?

  18. #18
    Senior Member chriskmurray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    My Bikes
    Borealis Echo, Ground Up Designs Ti Cross bike, Xtracycle, GT mod trials bike, pixie race machine
    Posts
    928
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    In my opinion, wheel building and selecting wheel components is one of the most over thought things in the bike world, even worse than which chain lube....

    If you use quality components designed for what you are using them for, assemble them correctly, they will last a very very long time. I have built many many wheelsets with standard straight gauge spokes that have lasted until the rim had worn out from braking.

    I personally always stray away from anything Sapim, I know people out there have had good luck with them but I have seen lots of issues with broken spokes from them on wheels with proper tension. I am a firm believer in DT or Wheelsmith spokes, my favorite are the basic 2/1.8/2mm DB spokes. I have never had any wheel built with them break a spoke yet, and I build wheels for a living.

    Alloy nipples work just fine as long as you make sure to properly lube everything, if not, they can make your life hell bringing a wheel to tension. The only time I really push people away from them is if the bike will see a lot of corrosive environments or they are doing some major loaded touring. Brass is always nice if you do not care about an extra 30 grams though. If you are having issues with breaking nipples or are worried about that, proper spoke length (meaning the spoke comes all the way to the end of the nipple) is far more important than anything else.

    I personally am running the WI T11 hubs with Velocity A23 rims on my commuter/road bike with basic DT DB spokes and aluminum nipples both 32h and laced 3 cross. I could have saved some weight and dropped spoke count a little but realistically I would never notice the difference since I do not race and tend to lean towards durability more than anything. The combo built up really well and there was nothing alarming with NDS tensions and WI hubs.

    The 23mm wide rim is quite nice, I can tell a small difference in ride quality and how well it corners but it would not be a deal breaker for me to not have it. I also run the same rims on my cross bike which see's a lot of gravel grinders and even a good amount of mountain biking and they have held up great so far.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NZ
    My Bikes
    More than 1, but, less than S-1
    Posts
    3,807
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by SethAZ View Post
    Bigfred, I tried to send this to you directly by PM, but I haven't posted enough on this board to earn that privilege, so I'm asking it here in public.

    I'm one of those guys who posted about my plans to use cx-rays and alloy nipples on my first build. I read your post with interest.

    I don't want to come across as argumentative, so let me state up front that I always like to think I respect the voice of experience, and as your comments reminded me of recommendations I've read along those same lines in other places from other people, a niggling thought in the back of my mind is telling me this is one of those times I need to defer to that voice of experience right now.

    Stilll, I'm mechanically inclined, fix my own cars, am learning to do all my own bike work, enjoy making things (I made two violins from scratch, an electric guitar, a tube guitar amplifier, and some other things), and used to work on helicopters part time in the reserves. That part of me is saying hey, I can do this. The other part of me is saying listen to the voice of experience you doofus!

    Are you willing to explain a little more about the reasons why you and others advise people like me to start out with simpler spokes, brass nipples, etc.? Btw, if I do bow to reason on this I'll go to double-butted spokes: straight gauge is a simplification too far for me. :-)

    I'm willing to be convinced. If I'm honest, I'm already nearly there. Are you willing to nudge me over the line with a little more detailed explanation of what pitfalls and stumbling blocks I'm up against?
    Before you've even started your first one, I'm sure that you can learn to build wheels. It's not that hard and anyone with a reasonable degree of mechanical aptitude and the patience to read and follow Sheldon Brown's instructions or Brandt's The Bicycle Wheel will be successful.

    I can't speak for the others, but, my reasoning goes something like this:

    With regard to learning a new skill it is usually best to introduce new challenges in a progressive sequential manner. In wheel building the first, unavoidable, lessons are spoke, nipple and rim prep, correct lacing pattern, removing slack, radial true, lateral true, tensioning, stress relieving and tension equalization whilst maintaining true. There is plenty to learn and perfect without adding the complications of excessive spoke twist/windup and the possibility of rounding nipples off.

    With regard to building wheels for a clyde like ourselves: The wheel is a composite structure that will perform best when the chosen components compliment each other without creating any excessively strong or weak points and while fulfilling the design brief or stated purpose of the wheels.

    One of the keys to reasonable wheel life for clydes is evenly distributed, high spoke tension. On your rear wheel, if you were using a DT Swiss 585 or Velocity Deep V rim I would recommend that you target DS tension of 130kgf or there abouts. I'm not sure what sort of tension the SL23 can support. On a Shimanon Ultegra hub this should result in achieving NDS tension of approximately 70kgf or greater. Through my own experience and that of quite a few others, we've found these tensions to be adequate to prevent lateral movement of the rear rim while standing and to prevent NDS nipples from backing off. Lowering DS tension to 110kgf will see NDS tension drop to the low 50s with a corresponding increase in the likelihood of NDS nipples backing off. Specially when a 270lb clyde stands to climb and starts swaying the bike from side to side or sprints.

    Alloy nipples are most easily worked with when they are lubricated and when final tension is not excessive. For a clyde build, most of us (but, not all) are using some form of locking spoke prep to fight NDS nipple back off and tensioning DS spokes to the structural limit of the rim or the nipple holes. A clyde build neccesitates the very two things that make alloy nipples more challenging to work with. That's not to say they (alloy nipples) can't be used. Just that you would be introducing additional challenges to your initial lesson, when you haven't even mastered the basics yet.

    The CX-ray spokes are essentially a 2.0/1.5/2.0 Lazer that has been die formed into a blade. DB spokes exhibit more windup than straight gauge spokes, which must be accounted for and corrected for during the stress relieving and final tensioning stages. The less windup a spoke is prone to, the less you have to hold them still to begin with, the less effect on true you can expect from stress relieving and an easier time achieving even final tension.

    However, the reason for inclussion of straight gauge spokes on the DS is not simplicity, nor windup. It's for the purpose of minimizing DS spoke elongation during lateral loading. While we're all accustomed to spokes failing at the elbow or thread due to fatigue at those poinst, the part of the spoke that streches during tensioning and riding is the middle where the butting is. By mixing straight gauge on the DS and DB on the NDS you gain minimal stretch on the DS during lateral loading and additional elongation of the NDS spokes for any given tension. Both of which help reduce the likelihood of NDS nipples going slack and backing off or of seeing sufficient changes in tension to fatigue either the elbow or start of the thread. There is more to suggesting Straight 14 DS X DB 14/15 NDS spokes for clydes than simplicity, affordability or ease of build.

    I raised the early question about the White Industries flange spacing because their narrow left flange would decrease the expected differential between DS and NDS tensions. But, at the expense of bracing angle.

    With regard to the alloy nipples: It's not just the chance of rounding off the flats while attempting to achieve high final tension. And believe me when I tell that in this day and age, not all nipples are going to fit your spoke wrench as they should. Subsequently, the likelihood of rounding off a nipple is NOT always about mechanical skill. There's also the higher loads on a realatively fine thread pitch, the chance of soft alloy deforming to match the nipple bead with associated effect on tension, cracking, potential for corrossion, etc. There are reasons why Mavic and Shimano have developed oversized wrench surfaces and coarser thread pitches for their alloy nippled wheels systems. Are they really worth the cost and potential issues to make a set of 1870 gram wheels into 1840 gram wheels under a 230-280lbs clyde?

    For some good, durable, clyde, training wheels; some 465-585 gram, 32 or 36h rims laced to the steel bodied freehub of your choice with 14/15 DB spokes or 14/15 DB NDS X 14 SS DS and brass nipples.

    For light but still clyde worth event/race day or bling wheels; consider an alloy freehub body(way bigger weight saving than alloy nipples), laced with fewer (as low a spoke count as your rims and cajones can support) cx-rays or simple 14/15 DB with alloy nipples to the same 465 gram alloy rims or some moderate depth carbon. If I were building these wheels I wouldn't hesitate to still use brass nipples as cheap insurance for the long haul.

    Those are just my thoughts.

    I hope you enjoy your build and that they provide many satisfying miles.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    108
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    I hope you enjoy your build and that they provide many satisfying miles.
    Bigfred, thanks for that long explanation of the various issues. That's exactly what I was hoping to see. The rebellious inner mechanic side of my mind which was looking forward to making nice-looking bling but still clydeworthy wheels has bowed in submission.

    I've adjust my plans accordingly. I'll get black DB14s for the front, and DB14 NDS and a straight gauge 14 for the DS for the rear. I'm still going to stick with the Ultegra 6800 front and rear hubs.

    Btw, when my 24-spoke Bontrager Race Lite wheel broke its hub hitting that crag of a road crack, I went to an LBS and bought a cheap, used 32h brute of a wheel they pulled off a used bike. It was cheap. It got me back on the road. It's not pretty, and has 32 silver-colored straight gauge spokes. I definitely felt the difference riding with it compared to the 24 aero-spokes of the original wheel. Then, within a day or two, I stopped thinking about it, and never noticed the difference again. And I'm riding faster today than ever on it. I trust the wheels from this new build will be similar in how I react to it. And hey, I may feel a difference on the road with them due to improved stiffness, the wider rims allowing more air volume for the same pressure, etc.

    Thanks again!

  21. #21
    Hook 'Em Horns
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    My Bikes
    Mine: Paul Taylor Custom 66cm, Rivendell custom 68cm, '75 Eisentraut Touring 69cm, 68cm track frame of indeterminate origin, '92 Cannondale M500. Ours: '93 Burley Duet tandem XL. Hers: L Mercier Sora thingy
    Posts
    284
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Bigfred dropped some knowledge in this thread! Good stuff!

    Forget the fancy CX Rays. Use standard 2.0/1.8/2.0 DB spokes with a reasonably durable rim and quality hubs and go 32/36 if you're over 250lbs.

    I was obsessing over my tandem wheels like this too and in the end I was sorry that I had done so. Built with 2.3/2.0 DT Alpine I's, 40/48 and 27mm Sun Rhyno Light and they're doing great despite supporting over 500 lbs of riders, bike and gear. They're heavy but still noticably lighter than the stock wheels.

  22. #22
    Senior Member jdfriesen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Abbotsford, BC
    My Bikes
    2012 Ridley Excalibur
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Thanks for all the different input. I have now ordered everything for my build. Despite my earlier stated concerns about having to purchase a separate service tool, I went with the Chris King R45s 28 front and 32 rear. I got a better price than I expected and I got them from a relatively local bike shop. They will hopefully arrive in a week or so. I got them in red and Chris King had them in stick they just had to assemble them.

    For rims I stuck with the Pacenti SL23. For spokes I listened intently to bigfred. I chose Sapim Race for the front and NDS and Sapim Leader for the DS.

    I'm looking forward to getting everything in my hands and building it up!

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NZ
    My Bikes
    More than 1, but, less than S-1
    Posts
    3,807
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    JDF,

    I had to go back and reread this thread. If you look back at my first post, you'll see I was supportive of you getting exactly what you wanted in a custom wheel. I questioned the use of CX-rays on a 28/32 set, but, also alluded to questioning the durability of of SL23's. They're only a 450 gram rim. Initial reports sound favourable. But, they haven't earned any great respect from the clyde community just yet. We're hoping to hear good reports from the likes of yourself.

    I wish SethAZ and I had our conversation in PM. He's 40lbs heavier than you. And I was simply countering the notion that straight gauge spokes were only used for cost and simplicity reasons. Which isn't neccessarily the case.

    However, in the interest of a balanced composite structure I don't know that they(straight 14ga/2.0mm) are the best choice for the DS of the 450gram SL23. In retrospect it's easy to see how the fact that I was talking about DT 585s and Velocity Deep Vs with regard to tensions could be missed by the time you get to paragraph on spoke gauge and butting. And that my comment about 465-585 gram rims might have been a bit too suttle in its effort to point out that the SL23s are quite light at 450grams.

    The concern with using the straight gauge spokes on SL23s is that in order to achieve that 450grams they may not have a sufficiently thick nipple bed nor sturctural rigidity to allow the use of high final tension with a less elastic spoke.

    E-mail Kirk Pacenti. See what he recommends with regard to max DS tension and spoke gauge. It's very possible that he may recommend no higher than 110kgf and DB spokes on such a light rim.

    The straight gauge spokes do provide a marginal gain in lateral wheel stiffness. They are slightly more sensitive to tension balancing adjustments as a consequence of the reduced elongation resulting in tension being more quickly assumed from or given to neighbooring spokes. However, at your 230lbs they're probably unnecessary.

    Sorry I didn't include all of this and more in my previous posts. Recently I've been trying to be more succint in my posts. That's obviously not working for me.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

  24. #24
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    7,721
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I've long wondered if nipple washers are a good idea with eyeletless low weight rims - which kind of decreases their low weight benefits (though the washers don't weigh that much).
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  25. #25
    Senior Member jdfriesen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Abbotsford, BC
    My Bikes
    2012 Ridley Excalibur
    Posts
    109
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    E-mail Kirk Pacenti. See what he recommends with regard to max DS tension and spoke gauge. It's very possible that he may recommend no higher than 110kgf and DB spokes on such a light rim.
    Thanks Bigfred. There was a post a few months ago on another forum about maximum and recommended tensions on the SL23. Kirk recommends 110kgf, and he also says returns on higher tensions diminish rather quickly once you pass 120kgf. He says as well that 125kgf is the max recommended tension. Here's the link:
    http://forums.thepaceline.net/showth...=133620&page=2

    I certainly do appreciate your (and other's) input. As you know, when asking these sorts of questions on an Internet forum (or reading on other forums), it's all a matter of balancing different people's opinions. At some point, you just have to decide what you're willing to try for yourself, and assume any associated risk. I will certainly report back once the wheels are built, and again after they've been in use for a while.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •