Mithrandir

This past weekend we had an unexpected burst of nice weather. Wanting to go out on a bang, perhaps to prove that "I'm back" and not going anywhere, I opted to do the most difficult ride I've ever done up until now. I've done more distance, but for this ride, the difficulty was the elevation. I climbed up 2 different hills, doing 2,500 feet in 39 miles. This makes it the most elevation I've ever done in a single ride, and the highest feet/mile I've ever done in a ride as well. https://www.strava.com/activities/95451117


The ride went well. All except one part: The descent from one hill: https://www.strava.com/activities/95451117#z7716|7814

This was a *very* steep descent, and to make matters worse, it curves at the worst part, making it easy to lose control and be flung into some steeply-descending foliage. I talked to my bike club about this descent and the general consensus was that it wasn't a particularly difficult descent, and that I shouldn't have any problems.

I survived the descent, but I had significant problems. For one, I couldn't keep my speed at a manageable number. I consistently felt like I was going too fast for the terrain. Second, even while pulsing the brakes, I experienced *significant* brake fade. At a certain point the brakes started to feel like they weren't actually slowing me at all.

I'm a little spooked by this. I had adjusted my brakes before the ride so that I had a good amount of leverage, and they work really well on flats and small descents. But this one was 300 feet in half a mile. I didn't feel safe and I will not be attempting this descent again any time soon.

Now, as I understand it, braking is a function of momentum, which is Mass * Speed. More mass = you need more braking power. As a 350 pound clyde, is the idea of being able to descend these types of hills a folly? Are bike brakes not up to the task? I'm just confused how people could tell me that this was an easy descent and then experience problems like this. I think maybe the people in my club simply have no idea how much more difficult biking as a clyde is?

JReade

Define pulsing of the brakes. My understand of braking during steep descents is to stab the brakes to drop a considerable amount of MPH, then let off to allow them to cool for a bit, almost like repeated panic stops. I know the feeling of "too fast for comfort", and It's not fun. I know the mass thing is true, and can overcome brakes/wheels if you don't let them cool off before you reapply, making the problem worse as you go.

pdlamb

It's not so much a function of clydes as just normal descending. There are a few things you can do to help:

0. Relax.
1. Sit up tall to catch the air. Let aerodynamic drag do the braking instead of your brake pads.
2. Let 'er rip, then brake hard, and repeat as necessary. Cool the rims while you're coasting. Jam on brakes just before hairpin curves.
3. If you can't stand the speed, alternate dragging the brake on the front for 5 seconds, then the rear for 5 seconds. The theory is to distribute the heating, and let each rim cool while it's coasting.
4. Stop when the brakes just start to fade. Eat a snack, drink something, take a few pictures. Let the rims cool 5-10 minutes, then ride some more.
5. Don't brake at the bottom if you can help it. Rolling wheels cool faster than standing wheels.

FrenchFit 

Downhill speed is dramatically different as a clyde, as I found out skiing/snowboarding. People in your bike club simply have no idea.

sstorkel

When your brakes are fading, you've got a couple of different options:

1) Double-check your brake setup. If your brake pads end up rubbing on the rim, for instance, they'll quickly overheat during a steep descent. This can happen if, for example, you set the brake pads close to the rim then have your fingers resting on the brake levers. There might be just enough pressure to have one or both of the pads constantly in contact with the rim (or disc, if you're using disc brakes).

2) Upgrade your equipment. Stock brake pads are notoriously bad. Upgrading to different pads may help reduce fading. I also tend to think that disc brakes are better for long, steep descents than caliper brakes. I never experienced brake fade on my disc-equipped mountain bikes nor by disc-equipped touring bike, for what that's worth. Sadly, discs are an expensive upgrade for most people. On my touring bike, I replaced the stock fork with a disc-compatible version and continue to run a standard cantilever brake at the back. This mixed setup works better than I would have thought!

3) Make sure you're using the proper braking technique. The "standard" for proper braking technique is to brake hard when you want to slow, then release the brakes completely. On steep descents where I'm trying to keep my speed under control, I tend to alternate between using the front brake and the rear brake. Sitting as upright as possible during a descent can also help, since your torso acts as a natural "air brake".

4) Get comfortable carrying more speed. Again, as part of the "standard" for proper braking you want to brake hard for corners (or bad pavement) but "let it run" when the road is relatively straight. Strava doesn't show how fast you were going on the descents, so I can't comment on whether your speed was appropriate or not. I will say that I'm often much slower the first time I descend a new route than on subsequent rides. Knowing the road, remembering where the pavement is bad, and which corners are the "tough" corners does wonders for giving you the confidence to carry a bit more speed when descending.

PhotoJoe 

All of this! Please do clarify your definition of "pulsing". Some people do it quickly, some do it right. I've been a volunteer bus driver for my church for 20 years. Driving an MCI tour bus loaded with 45 kids coming out of the Sequoias, I either do it right or I kill a bunch of people. Leaving gearing out of it, if brakes were the only option, to maintain a safe speed of say 40 MPH, you allow the vehicle to reach 40, then scrub speed down to 30, then let it coast back to 40...repeat. By pulsing them too quickly, you don't get any real braking power and lose the cooling effect created by the coasting. On particularly difficult sections, I would drop the speed to 25, then coast to 40 (assuming 40 were still the safe speed) to give them even more time to cool.

With that said, though, any vehicle with undersized brakes for the load will have problems. I don't know if 350 lbs. is too much load for standard brakes, though. I don't even claim to have a clue on that one.

Also, from my motorcycle safety foundation class, brake before the turn and coast through the turn when ever possible. Braking in a straight line is safer than in a turn.

JerrySTL

Hopefully you aren't riding on carbon fiber rims. Evidently they are horrible for braking even when you have the correct pads.

sstorkel and pdlamb covered most of what I would suggest.

When going down long hills, it's much better to keep the speeds slow. It's better to find out that your brakes aren't working too well at 20 mph versus 40 mph.

Stopping to allow the brakes and rim to cool is a very, very good idea. Back in the day before cars had disc brakes, the park rangers on the road going down from Pikes Peak would check the brakes on cars to see if they were too hot. (They still might AFAIK) If they were, they'd make the car pull over for a period of time to allow the brakes to cool. Brake fade was an issue with drum brakes. Disc brakes have all but made brake fade a memory in cars.

Way back in the day there was a bike ride up a steep mountain road near Albuquerque NM. We were warned to put on fresh brake pads before the ride as we had to coast back down. This was in the days of Wiemann center pull brakes with pads that were very similar to pencil erasure material. By the end of the descent I had completely worn out the rear brakes and also the front. I saw a couple of people get severe brake fade and crash. Fortunately no went over the side of the mountain. I stopped a couple of times to allow my brakes to cool down.

fiatjeepdriver

Personally I love descending. The way I look at it is your bike wants to stay up right and it will. If you know the road let it rip. I'll hit 60mph+ on some of the local descents, usually with some of the skinny riders I ride with tucking in behind me so they can keep up.

jsigone

sounds like you need some new brake pads. I was recommended the SwissStop purple BXP for alum rims, I use their Yellows for my carbons and these purples are freaking awesome. They were put to the test last weekend on my 10.7kft RGR race on roads not meant for a skinny tired roadie. The BXP are their latest compound that allows for better modulation and braking control, and work very well. Also remember to TOE IN your pads

You get all 4 pads so breaking down the cost is pretty competitive then others as well
https://www.bikebling.com/SwissStop-B...p100003203.htm

genejockey 

Descending a road you don't know, especially when you're not practiced at descending, can be terrifying and/or humiliating. There are lots of hills around here, but there's also lots of riding you can do without climbing them, so when I'm not riding seriously (or at all), I don't climb much.

This year, I decided to get serious again, and built up to doing those climbs again. There's one descent here that I USED TO love - smooth surface, wide lanes, only slightly technical, and if you time it right, little competing vehicle traffic. The first time down it this year, it was 3 miles of terror. Man, had I forgotten how to descend! And this was a road I must have gone down at least 100 times. Next time it was better and the time after that it was actually fun.

Yesterday, I did an unfamiliar climb and descent (the road dead-ends at the top). Not even very steep, but with enough blind corners that not knowing it, I'd slow WAY down in case it was tighter than it looked. It never was. Two miles of terror. So, doing an unknown descent can be terrifying.

Now, at 350, you and your bike have about as much mass as a tandem. Tandems don't depend on road bike brakes. They have AT LEAST cantilevers, and many these days have disks. It's not surprising your speed felt like it might overwhelm your brakes. Perhaps you should consider upgrading before you do much serious descending? A Cross bike will have similar geometry to a road bike, but either cantis or disks, plus they're built to accommodate larger tires - you can also overwhelm the contact patch on a 25mm road bike tire.

Don't give up on descending, but find some easier hills for practice!

CommuteCommando

There are some pretty decent hills around here, I clocked myself at 50 on one of them. At that speed, sitting up and catching air has a very noticeable effect, even without touching the brakes. At speeds of thirty or more, it's always the first thing I do. I bleed as much speed as a can this way, then go to the brakes.

kingsqueak

Biggest tip from another clyde, don't let momentum build up. Control the speed early and often. Cornering is a lot more solid if you weight the pedals too. Push up on the pedals enough to just rise out of the saddle, it lowers the center of gravity down around the bottom bracket if you are essentially standing on the pedals. Try this at lower speed more controlled corners and you'll see what I mean.

sstorkel

I don't think your MSF instructor told you this. Or if he did he needs to be fired for incompetence. On a motorcycle, you want to be rolling the throttle on (gently) once you're done braking for a turn.

ahultin

@300lbs here and looking at that profile, 300 feet in 1/2 mile at an 11% grade is a significant descent but at an average speed of only 18.7 over that segment you seemed to handle breaking better than you may think.
I would mirror some of the others in saying pick your top comfort speed, once you get there brake hard to scrub speed, rinse and repeat. As for me and my bike, at my size I can almost initiate a front wheel skid (similar to on our tandem) without the rear wheel lifting and find the front does a whole lot more to stop than the rear. I run Ultegra 6700 brakes on the single and Avid BB7 discs on the tandem. With the tandem I have (only once though before I was familiar with the bikes/brakes) gotten the front disc heated to where it was glowing and chewed thru the pads in seconds causing fear and borderline panic with the stoker. I have gotten much better descending since that event.

GeorgeLeslie

Not to mention getting out of the saddle and pushing your weight as far to the rear as possible

PhotoJoe 

Absolutely right. I was paying attention to the braking thing and not too much about the "coasting" thing. Yes. I agree with you. The point I was focusing on was that braking in a turn is bad.

chaadster

Mithrandir: First, great ride! Way to go tackling those hills! Second, as Ahultin notes above, yeah...you weren't anywhere near a significant max speed there. If we're talking about that run down the backside of Col. Sanders, I mean, not breaching 30mph on what's basically a straight road with one gentle curve, I'd say you left a lot on the table. You and the bike can handle more, I'm sure. Keep doing it, and you'll gain the confidence. Downhills is where we clydes make hay, as they say.

SethAZ 

I don't know that the OP was really going to fast on that turn or not. Of course, he was there, and felt like he was, so I believe him.

The brakes only have so much stopping power. That power will slow a lighter person far more than it will slow a heavy person. Bottom line is that 350 lbs is a very large weight for the brakes to stop, and I'd be careful about subjecting them to the full stress of a nuts-out hairy descent with that kind of load.

I'm around 270 right now, and my max down a hill has been 53 mph. It was fun, and luckily there was a nice long roll-out at the bottom so I didn't have to see what would happen if I had to slam on my brakes at that speed. I do recall thinking, though, that if my bike failed for some reason at that speed, I was dead meat. And the chances of that happening are greater with a heavier rider. Proceed with caution.

rdtompki

It appears that the Surly LHT has cantilever brakes. I don't have personal experience with these brakes, but understand that with proper pads and properly adjusted they provide good stopping power. Tandems with team weights on the order of the OP's weight use all manner of brake and are able to handle descents significantly more severe than the one reference by the OP. It's very possible that the OP absent experience with descending didn't use proper technique; continuous use of the brakes or even continuous pulsing would be high detrimental IMO versus letting the bike run up to a fair speed, braking fairly hard to scrub off speed and rinse/repeat. Of course a descent with switchbacks provides a natural "opportunity" to apply this technique.

brons2

There's lots that has been already said but one thing is just getting used to the amount of speed that you carry down a large descent. Get used to the handling of your bike at higher speeds, gradually.

Granted, I only weigh 270. But I generally am trying to go faster, not slower, unless there's some kind of hairpin or something. In fact if I have to hit the brakes at all going downhill I get a little disappointed. It's usually because of other cyclists not going as fast as I like to. But anyway

Mithrandir

So yeah,

I've got cantilevers. Specifically Shimano CX70's. I thought I had replaced the brake pads last year with Kool Stop's but it appears I only replaced the rear pads, and the front pads are still the OEM pads that came with the bike 2 years ago.

I think perhaps I'm going to try replacing the front pads first and see what kind of a difference that makes.


As per the speed. Yes I was trying to keep my speed under 20. I've been past 40 before, and I have no problem with that kind of speed on straight descents. The problem with this one was the curve that made me feel like I was *very* close to losing control. Maybe it is just my inexperience with hills though. I have never done a curving descent before.

fietsbob

Downhills with my full Touring kit may be more like a 400 pound rider,
I Just dont let my speed get away from me.

It's part of why I Got to be so Old, and still Alive

Though owning a Motorbike as a youth, that was not so sure.

genejockey 

Unknown curves on a descent can freak you right the hell out!

Sometimes they really deserve the freak out. There's one near me, on a road I don't ride much, which doesn't look bad at first glance, but it's on a high-speed section, it's got a decreasing radius, and worst, it's off-camber. You go into it thinking "Oh, this doesn't look bad" and come out thinking "HOLY CRAP!!"

digibud

You might try some other brake pads. I know Specialized specs a different brake pad for people over 220 on their Roubaix. Different brake pads make a huge difference, as does a pad that is glazed. Be sure your pads are clean and your rim is also clean. The comment about not letting speed build up is key. If you're not slowing down as much as you think you should then stop. Check your rims to be sure they aren't over heated and just start your braking earlier so you can go down in a controlled manner.

adrien

Ahh, cantilevers. I had them on a cross bike. That thing was scary on road descents when I was 250. It just didn't like to stop. I got salmon cool stops and spent a stupid amount of time getting the toe-in right. Then I learned to scrub speed -- hard, early, often. If you get out of the saddle and push your weight back, you'd be very surprised how hard you can brake without a handling issue.

Then I got road brakes (long-reach, Ultegra level). Holy @$^@. Stopping power I would say in the order of 4-5x the canti brakes.

I believe the best route -- if you try all the above ideas (also, clean your rims with a mild alcohol solution, and check the pads for embedded grit) is the newer mini-V brakes. They are reputed to be MUCH better, and will mount to a cantilever drilling.