Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) Looking to lose that spare tire? Ideal weight 200+? Frustrated being a large cyclist in a sport geared for the ultra-light? Learn about the bikes and parts that can take the abuse of a heavier cyclist, how to keep your body going while losing the weight, and get support from others who've been successful.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-18-13, 11:06 AM   #1
expatbrit
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 'burque, holmes
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire, Trek X-Cal
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Am I foolish for wanting to patronise a given bike shop?

Hi all,

I'm in the process of going from my slick-tyred 23" Trek X-cal (1100 miles since July, and 60,000' of climbing) to something a little more road-oriented. As part of this process I've really been shopping bike shops, more than bikes. One in particular has absolutely stood out as the best I've found in town, and I really want to buy a bike from them.

They're Specialized/Ridley/Scott. They've spent a tonne of time with me. I've found a couple of bikes that work well, and one I really like (56cm Ridley X-Fire, which I fit with a nice big drop to the bars thanks to mutant arms).

Most of the other bikes I'm interested in (Trek Domane, C'dale SuperSix) are at a shop I don't like as much.

Am I being stupid with focusing on trying to get a bike from the shop that works with me for fit, etc? Should I widen by search out -- there's some killer deals on leftover 2013 SuperSix bikes around here).
expatbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 11:47 AM   #2
Pamestique 
Shredding Grandma!
 
Pamestique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: So Cal
Bikes: I don't own any bikes
Posts: 4,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Absolutely commend you for trying to work with your LBS... that said, unfortunately. sign of the times, shops are limited and if you have your heart set on a bike the shop cannot carry or obtain for you; you are out of luck.

There is a shop in my town that cyclist (well mostly mountain bikers) worship. It has a very dedicated client base. Sepcialized tried to pressure them into becoming a concept store and they refused. Specialized pulled out but that gave the shop and the community, the opportunity to showcase and sell other brands; just as worthy but not as well known.

Unfortunately you are dealing with the Concept model that both Trek and Specialize are pushing... I think both brands are equally good but lately I have been pushing friends towards Trek since they are more willing to deal.

But if you have spent alot of time at the one shop, and they have been willing to work with you, you should strongly consider buying a bike from them. It's just the moral thing to do if nothing else...
__________________
______________________________________________________________

Private docent led mountain bike rides through Limestone Canyon. Go to letsgooutside.org and register today! Also available: hikes, equestrian rides and family events as well as trail maintenance and science study.
Pamestique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 11:53 AM   #3
JerrySTL
Senior Member
 
JerrySTL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Bikes: Giant Defy Advanced, Windsor Tourist
Posts: 1,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
I've found that there's a much bigger difference between LBS's than bike brands. In my case I wanted a Specialized Roubaix; however, the only bike shop that carried them near me wasn't high on my list. So I got a Giant Defy Advanced that is very similar to a Roubaix from an LBS that I liked a lot. Sometimes I see a Roubaix and have a twinge of buyer's remorse; however, I'd probably had a lot more remorse if I hadn't bought at my favorite LBS.
JerrySTL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 01:06 PM   #4
peckma
Senior Member
 
peckma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: MANHATTAN BEACH, CA
Bikes: 2013 BMC GRAN FONDO GF01, 2010 SPECIALIZED ROUBAIX, 2004 TREK FX7000, 2013 SPECIALIZED ALLEZ
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Kudos for wanting to patronize your local LBS. I faced a decision earlier this year: the bike I wanted was not carried by my preferred LBS. I explained the situation to the owner, who said "we appreciate every dollar you spend here, even if it's just a dollar." Bought the bike at another shop, and had its breakin service done there. But, from there on forward, I take it to my preferred LBS for service, parts, etc.

Keep in mind: a bike purchase is a one shot deal. Bike maintenance, parts and apparel are an on-going relationship.
peckma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 01:29 PM   #5
expatbrit
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 'burque, holmes
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire, Trek X-Cal
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySTL View Post
I've found that there's a much bigger difference between LBS's than bike brands. In my case I wanted a Specialized Roubaix; however, the only bike shop that carried them near me wasn't high on my list. So I got a Giant Defy Advanced that is very similar to a Roubaix from an LBS that I liked a lot. Sometimes I see a Roubaix and have a twinge of buyer's remorse; however, I'd probably had a lot more remorse if I hadn't bought at my favorite LBS.
I'm all over the map with what I want; thought I wanted a Roubaix, but less and less sure now. I'm all over the map on what I want.
expatbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 01:49 PM   #6
longbeachgary
Senior Member
 
longbeachgary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Beautiful Long Beach California
Bikes: Eddy Merkx San Remo 76, Eddy Merckx Sallanches 64 (2); Eddy Merckx MXL; 2013 Cannondale CAAD10 DI2, The Black Mambo
Posts: 3,456
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatbrit View Post
Am I being stupid with focusing on trying to get a bike from the shop that works with me for fit, etc? Should I widen by search out -- there's some killer deals on leftover 2013 SuperSix bikes around here).
NO. You need to find a shop that you're comfortable with before you buy a bike. You're going to depend on them from everything from initial tune-ups to warranty work (hopefully you'll never need any warranty work).
longbeachgary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 02:13 PM   #7
CommuteCommando
Senior Member
 
CommuteCommando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Southern CaliFORNIA.
Bikes: KHS Alite 500, Trek 7.2 FX , Masi Partenza, Masi Fixed Special, Masi Cran Criterium
Posts: 3,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerrySTL View Post
I've found that there's a much bigger difference between LBS's than bike brands. . .
Sorta agree, but to be fair, making side to side comparisons will reveal differences in how different bikes fit and feel. Overall quality, however doesn't vary that much once you get above Big Box level bikes. I rode a GT, and Specialized CF road bikes at a Performance Bike Shop. Cannondale and Giant at other places. That was to do due diligence before getting my Masi at my favorite LBS. The guys a really good mechanic, willing to answer my questions, and I like the guy, YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
Unfortunately you are dealing with the Concept model that both Trek and Specialize are pushing... I think both brands are equally good but lately I have been pushing friends towards Trek since they are more willing to deal.
Several reasons I don't do Trek. The quality is good, but I have problems with aspects of their business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pamestique View Post
There is a shop in my town that cyclist (well mostly mountain bikers) worship. It has a very dedicated client base. Sepcialized tried to pressure them into becoming a concept store and they refused. Specialized pulled out but that gave the shop and the community, the opportunity to showcase and sell other brands; just as worthy but not as well known.
I think I know this shop. Either it is a tiny little place near where I work, really hidden away in a little industrial park off Warner, or the one on Bake pkwy a little east of Trabuco. Am I right? I happened on the Bake shop by chance on a hot ride last summer, and thank the gods that they were generous with the water.
CommuteCommando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 02:43 PM   #8
mprelaw
Senior Member
 
mprelaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Bikes:
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Stick with the shop. If the Ridley suits you, and the price is right, go for it. While it's true that a purchase is once, but post-purchase service is ongoing, and that great shop will service anything you buy, having a good shop to run interference for you with the manufacturer of a brand they carry, on an warranty issue, is a good thing to have.
mprelaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 02:55 PM   #9
expatbrit
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 'burque, holmes
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire, Trek X-Cal
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mprelaw View Post
Stick with the shop. If the Ridley suits you, and the price is right, go for it. While it's true that a purchase is once, but post-purchase service is ongoing, and that great shop will service anything you buy, having a good shop to run interference for you with the manufacturer of a brand they carry, on an warranty issue, is a good thing to have.
The Ridley fits (though I'm still nervous it's 'too small', the fitter seems to be good). Price is a bit high, especially compared to on-line, but I love the way it looks and it rides just fine.

As with all too many things, reading too many Internet reviews leads to decision paralysis. BikeRadar appears to love everything C'dale, and the Trek/C'dale dealership is 'ok', and blowing out bikes at silly, silly prices. I bought my MTB from there earlier this year and haven't been unhappy.

Finding the other shop, however, has been a revelation. I'm glad that my gut feeling is right -- the store really is more important than almost anything else. If I want to go Spesh, I could there as well (I rode a Tarmac and a Roubaix, and the latter was pretty damn nice -- but more than the Ridley).
expatbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 04:16 PM   #10
Daspydyr 
Pedals, Paddles and Poles
 
Daspydyr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Btw the Mohave desert and AREA 51
Bikes: Santa Cruz Tallboy, Ridley Noah, Scott Spark 20
Posts: 5,368
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
I like the idea of building a good relationship with people you NEED to be able to trust. They also carry some of my favorite bike lines.
__________________
I think its disgusting and terrible how people treat Lance Armstrong, especially after winning 7 Tour de France Titles while on drugs!

I can't even find my bike when I'm on drugs. -Willie N.
Daspydyr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 04:28 PM   #11
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima
Posts: 1,524
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatbrit View Post
Hi all,

I'm in the process of going from my slick-tyred 23" Trek X-cal (1100 miles since July, and 60,000' of climbing) to something a little more road-oriented. As part of this process I've really been shopping bike shops, more than bikes. One in particular has absolutely stood out as the best I've found in town, and I really want to buy a bike from them.

They're Specialized/Ridley/Scott. They've spent a tonne of time with me. I've found a couple of bikes that work well, and one I really like (56cm Ridley X-Fire, which I fit with a nice big drop to the bars thanks to mutant arms).

Most of the other bikes I'm interested in (Trek Domane, C'dale SuperSix) are at a shop I don't like as much.

Am I being stupid with focusing on trying to get a bike from the shop that works with me for fit, etc? Should I widen by search out -- there's some killer deals on leftover 2013 SuperSix bikes around here).
You

No. You're not being stupid. When you buy a new bike, you're buying a relationship with a shop, and if one shop stands out from the others, that's the way to go.

Fact of the matter is that you can find a great bike in nearly every manufacturer's line at nearly every price point. Between Specialized, Ridley, and Scott, you have lots of options. But you can't find great service from people you like at every shop. THAT should make your choice in this situation.
__________________
www.beancotton.com
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

bbbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 04:30 PM   #12
Pamestique 
Shredding Grandma!
 
Pamestique's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: So Cal
Bikes: I don't own any bikes
Posts: 4,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CommuteCommando View Post
I think I know this shop. Either it is a tiny little place near where I work, really hidden away in a little industrial park off Warner, or the one on Bake pkwy a little east of Trabuco. Am I right? I happened on the Bake shop by chance on a hot ride last summer, and thank the gods that they were generous with the water.
The one on Bake - Bike Co, I patronize ('tis my shop when I need one as well as Jenson out in Corona). I have tried to go to the Warner shop but its always closed. No I am speaking of The Path (in Tustin and Trabuco). Frankly I hate the shop but its worshipped by many...I have to admit it does carry tons of product including bikes... but its service sucks and its prices are very high... and Path People before you flame me, been abused before, don't care...
__________________
______________________________________________________________

Private docent led mountain bike rides through Limestone Canyon. Go to letsgooutside.org and register today! Also available: hikes, equestrian rides and family events as well as trail maintenance and science study.

Last edited by Pamestique; 12-18-13 at 04:34 PM.
Pamestique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 04:30 PM   #13
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima
Posts: 1,524
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatbrit View Post
I'm all over the map with what I want; thought I wanted a Roubaix, but less and less sure now. I'm all over the map on what I want.
I bought a Giant Defy, but rode a Domane and a Roubaix enough (and side by side) to feel pretty confident in saying any of them would have made a great bike for me. There's not enough difference there to go to a shop you don't like.
__________________
www.beancotton.com
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

bbbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 06:14 PM   #14
expatbrit
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 'burque, holmes
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire, Trek X-Cal
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
I bought a Giant Defy, but rode a Domane and a Roubaix enough (and side by side) to feel pretty confident in saying any of them would have made a great bike for me. There's not enough difference there to go to a shop you don't like.
Thanks.

Like I said -- that covers how I feel. The shop in question has told me to go ride everything, find the best I can. Can't argue with that, especially when you're tall.
expatbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-13, 11:11 PM   #15
Erwin8r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Great shop, great service, and a Ridley XFire??? Sounds like a recipe for pedaling bliss!
Erwin8r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-13, 01:01 AM   #16
sstorkel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Bikes: Cervelo RS, Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Schwinn Typhoon, Nashbar touring, custom steel MTB
Posts: 5,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
No. You're not being stupid. When you buy a new bike, you're buying a relationship with a shop, and if one shop stands out from the others, that's the way to go.
In my case, I'm actually buying a bike. Why would I want a relationship with a bunch of nitwits who know less about the models I'm considering than I do, want to sell me $10 inner tubes and accessories at MSRP, or make me wait weeks for service that I can easily perform myself?
sstorkel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-13, 06:31 AM   #17
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima
Posts: 1,524
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
In my case, I'm actually buying a bike. Why would I want a relationship with a bunch of nitwits who know less about the models I'm considering than I do, want to sell me $10 inner tubes and accessories at MSRP, or make me wait weeks for service that I can easily perform myself?
Sounds like you have a relationship with the wrong shop.
__________________
www.beancotton.com
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

bbbean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-13, 07:01 AM   #18
TrojanHorse 
SuperGimp
 
TrojanHorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Whittier, CA
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix
Posts: 11,310
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
In my case, I'm actually buying a bike. Why would I want a relationship with a bunch of nitwits who know less about the models I'm considering than I do, want to sell me $10 inner tubes and accessories at MSRP, or make me wait weeks for service that I can easily perform myself?
yeah, I do all my own maintenance too. The last straw was before my first century - all the wags say to get your bike once-overed (nice english there, eh?) and the good shop near me said they didn't have any openings for weeks. Of course, they have hooked me up in the past but let's face it - bike maintenance is not rocket surgery.

Regardless, I'd rather support a shop I like with my money over a shop I do not like.
__________________
"No self-respecting man rides 70 miles and has salad at a pizza joint!" - PhotoJoe
"I like SoCal a lot better than New Jersey" - RubeRad
TrojanHorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-13, 07:26 AM   #19
Wanderer
aka Phil Jungels
 
Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: North Aurora, IL
Bikes: 08 Specialized Crosstrail Sport, 05 Sirrus Comp
Posts: 7,590
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Re think this whole thing - and you are going in the right direction ----------------------- BUT, GOSH, MAKE SURE IT FITS !

Be absolutely correct that it fits properly, even I you have o wait for them to order......... You don't want ot be the proverbial monkey on the football, as it (and you) will never be right!

Why do you feel it's too small?
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-13, 12:27 PM   #20
mprelaw
Senior Member
 
mprelaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Bikes:
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatbrit View Post
The Ridley fits (though I'm still nervous it's 'too small', the fitter seems to be good). Price is a bit high, especially compared to on-line, but I love the way it looks and it rides just fine.

As with all too many things, reading too many Internet reviews leads to decision paralysis. BikeRadar appears to love everything C'dale, and the Trek/C'dale dealership is 'ok', and blowing out bikes at silly, silly prices. I bought my MTB from there earlier this year and haven't been unhappy.

Finding the other shop, however, has been a revelation. I'm glad that my gut feeling is right -- the store really is more important than almost anything else. If I want to go Spesh, I could there as well (I rode a Tarmac and a Roubaix, and the latter was pretty damn nice -- but more than the Ridley).
Trust your fitter, especially if this is your first road bike purchase. Don't go by frame size. Geometries vary. One 56 might be another company's 58.

With Ridley, there's also the style points plus of riding something less ubiquitous than the big 4. It's not a big deal to me, but to some, having something other than the 4 different brands of the same vanilla matters.
mprelaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-13, 01:32 PM   #21
expatbrit
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 'burque, holmes
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire, Trek X-Cal
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Re think this whole thing - and you are going in the right direction ----------------------- BUT, GOSH, MAKE SURE IT FITS !

Be absolutely correct that it fits properly, even I you have o wait for them to order......... You don't want ot be the proverbial monkey on the football, as it (and you) will never be right!

Why do you feel it's too small?
Because I'm so used (at my height and size) to buying the largest of everything, and I'm paranoid about buying too small.

Trusting the fitter is key. I don't think he'd steer me wrong, however, so...

To mprelaw's point -- yeah. There's an appeal to the Ridley, and their 56 is certainly not anyone else's. The other thing I've learned with shopping is that bike sizing by the numbers is ... well. Yeah.
expatbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-13, 07:17 PM   #22
expatbrit
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 'burque, holmes
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire, Trek X-Cal
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well.

The price was /definitely/ right; they made sure. Fit appears good, though it was after dark when I got home, so didn't get much of a maiden ride in.

However, there is now a 'road' bike in the garage, and I can convert the mountain bike back to a /real/ one, not a fake hybrid. Black and yellow Ridley X-Fire, Ultegra. I mounted up a set of 28mm Conti Gatorskins for road work, and will see (assuming there is no snow) how we go tomorrow. Based on the test ride I'm going to love it!
expatbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-13, 08:10 PM   #23
jsigone
got the climbing bug
 
jsigone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes: one for everything
Posts: 8,533
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
^^^^ awesome job pulling the trigger....picture please
__________________
Rule #10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster.
jsigone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-13, 10:02 AM   #24
mprelaw
Senior Member
 
mprelaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Bikes:
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Congratulations on the new ride.
mprelaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-13, 04:08 PM   #25
expatbrit
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: 'burque, holmes
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire, Trek X-Cal
Posts: 327
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsigone View Post
^^^^ awesome job pulling the trigger....picture please
Everywhere I possibly can post it? Black and yellow is BY FAR my favourite colour combo, I think. Unless I can get screaming AUSTRIAN Orange.



I don't have your style for posing it; it's trying hard to snow again, and did last night so I just spun around the neighbourhood for a little bit of climbing.
expatbrit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:20 AM.