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  1. #126
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    What's your longest ride this year? Is it really only about 30 miles? It's going to be hard to finish a 200k with no long rides.


    I also agree with Weatherby that there is something wrong with your max Hr calc. Are you sure that you are pushing hard enough to get to your max? I find it hard to reach my max indoors, but can outdoors on a big hill.

  2. #127
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    Max heart rate varies and I cannot say why yours is low but it is. There are sports docs who can run tests to determine your aerobic threshold and other fitness numbers. One near me does this for $200. He will also calculate training zones for you.

    However, given that your max heartrate seems to be around 150, doing most of your riding in the 125-130 BPM range is not effective. Do some searches on training zones. You need to go slower and longer more often and eventually some quality work (intervals) to go faster. Cycling is not like weight liftng. We are building the capacity to burn fact aerobically. Explosive power is nice to jump away from an angry old dog or jam a hill, but it is not what gives us the ability to ride for hour upon hour for days on end.

    You can do a 200k today. WIll it be enjoyable?

    If you want the 200k to be fun, try slowly and consistently increasing the weekly long ride as I had suggested. Or, just just gut it out on the big day.

  3. #128
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammond9705 View Post
    What's your longest ride this year? Is it really only about 30 miles? It's going to be hard to finish a 200k with no long rides.


    I also agree with Weatherby that there is something wrong with your max Hr calc. Are you sure that you are pushing hard enough to get to your max? I find it hard to reach my max indoors, but can outdoors on a big hill.
    I thought and think there is a problem too.

    So blew out during outdoor ride...
    on stationary bike
    Blew out chopping wood... With hr monitor on.
    all in same region higher 140's to 150.

    Enough of an effort that standing became questionable.
    One of my crazy theories is that I need to get in better shape to actually push heart higher...

    I have been on blood pressure meds. My Doctor is data based and interested in long term health. So her threshold for treatment is the new recommendation. I've tried 4 different ones so far. All had unacceptable side effects considering how low a risk for negative events I am, and how little treating a 130-140s over 80-90's pressure reduces risk.

    Interestingly and potentially helpful in figuring out why max HR is so low, one BP med propranolol helped make a breakthrough in my riding last year. The short time I was on it, my average speed on my commute went up by 2mph. Perceived effort for that was from a hard ride to an hard but enjoyable fast ride. That part was GREAT! However after a bit, it made me profoundly depressed, despondent even.


    Yeah it will be hard, in some ways that's the point. I have done distance 70-80 miles and done time. Just not since winter hit. Bike fit is dialed in rather comfy, though it gets better with minor tweaks.

    Not really doing this 200k for fun. Mostly as a goal to work towards so that preparing for it will get me to a different level for the START of a season.

  4. #129
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Max heart rate varies and I cannot say why yours is low but it is. There are sports docs who can run tests to determine your aerobic threshold and other fitness numbers. One near me does this for $200. He will also calculate training zones for you.

    However, given that your max heartrate seems to be around 150, doing most of your riding in the 125-130 BPM range is not effective. Do some searches on training zones. You need to go slower and longer more often and eventually some quality work (intervals) to go faster. Cycling is not like weight liftng. We are building the capacity to burn fact aerobically. Explosive power is nice to jump away from an angry old dog or jam a hill, but it is not what gives us the ability to ride for hour upon hour for days on end.

    You can do a 200k today. WIll it be enjoyable?

    If you want the 200k to be fun, try slowly and consistently increasing the weekly long ride as I had suggested. Or, just just gut it out on the big day.
    Weatherby: I believe it was you who made this same point earlier. I had been using the outdoor long rides as recovery. Weather what it was they were not frequent enough... Indoors, due to personal character flaws, steady state cardio just ain't gonna happen. So that leaves the 3-4x / week interval patterns.

    As luck would have it, between the earlier comment of riding too often at too high an intensity, the misplacement of the Heart Rate monitor, and a Cadence thread here I decided to play with lower cadence. Yesterday's ride I made it a point of just going with it. Rarely did I breathe hard, though there were only a few hills long enough to get my heart rate up. I also made a point of staying in the 70's for the most part and even down really low in the 50's on slight declines. Well, I had a wonderful time, and I feel refreshed this morning instead of challenged.

  5. #130
    Senior Member Ursa Minor's Avatar
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    The blood pressure meds can lower your max heartrate especially beta blockers.
    Alos I have a friend I ride with who doesn't even take bp meds and his heartrate is always
    low. After a hard hill I was 150 but he was barely 130.

    Anyway I rooting for you - good luck on your adventure.

    Charlie
    Grimly determined to have fun.

  6. #131
    2 Fat 2 Furious contango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Null66 View Post
    Gorgeous vacation ride with Mary!


    Summary
    Distance: 31.43 mi
    Time: 3:09:08
    Avg Speed: 10.0 mph
    Elevation Gain: 531 ft
    Calories: 2,228 C
    I wouldn't trust that figure for calories - it works out somewhere north of 70 calories per mile.

    I weigh about 250 and when I'm going 15-20mph I reckon on 30-40 calories per mile. Some say even that figure is too high.
    "For a list of ways technology has failed to improve quality of life, press three"

  7. #132
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by contango View Post
    I wouldn't trust that figure for calories - it works out somewhere north of 70 calories per mile.

    I weigh about 250 and when I'm going 15-20mph I reckon on 30-40 calories per mile. Some say even that figure is too high.
    Interestingly last ride was about the same distance, but 3x the climb and about the same speed.

    Garmin reported 1/2 the calories for 3x the climb...

  8. #133
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    First lift in too long:
    hspl rows
    3x10x360


    hspl decline
    5x5x450


    hspl shrug
    5x5x450


    hspl incline bench
    5x5x270


    hspl pullovers
    5x5x360


    Cable curls
    5x65
    5x5x95
    3@87.5,80,72.5,65,57.5,50,45,40,35,30,25,20,15,10,5

    It felt like it'd been too long...

  9. #134
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Nice ride!
    Summary
    Distance: 37.40 mi
    Time: 3:07:58
    Avg Speed: 11.9 mph
    Elevation Gain: 1,526 ft
    Calories: 1,559 C
    Avg Temperature: 79.6 F
    Details
    Timing
    Time: 3:07:58
    Moving Time: 3:07:38
    Elapsed Time: 4:19:00
    Avg Speed: 11.9 mph
    Avg Moving Speed: 12.0 mph
    Max Speed: 33.4 mph
    SpeedPace
    Elevation
    Elevation Gain: 1,526 ft
    Elevation Loss: 1,555 ft
    Min Elevation: 102 ft
    Max Elevation: 337 ft
    Heart Rate
    Avg HR: 124 bpm
    Max HR: 142 bpm
    Zones% of Maxbpm
    Cadence
    Avg Bike Cadence: 70 rpm
    Max Bike Cadence: 105 rpm

    Marvelous day!

  10. #135
    Senior Member Ursa Minor's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great ride Null66. I'm impressed with your speed - I usually poke along
    at 8 to 10 mph.

    Charlie
    Grimly determined to have fun.

  11. #136
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    Null66.......if you can get one long ride in about 2 weeks before the 200K and then dial it back on intensity and distance for the week of the event, you should be ok.

    The reason I was asking about BP meds is I was shocked how much lower my max heart rates were after starting cycling again after a 15 or so year hiatis. At 40 years old, I would max out at almost 200 BPM and my threshold was 168-170. On recent rides I could barely hit 154 BPM on hills. I started reading and trying to figure out what was wrong and even contemplated seeing a Cardioilogist. I am not on any meds but I read how many meds will impact heart rate. I joined a cycling club and went on a brisk club ride yesterday and hit 177 hanging on for dear life on a 2 mile long climb into a 25 mph wind. So, the bottomline is your post gave me some food for thought trying to figure out a training regimen. My old numbers just don't work and I have to find a new set.

    THe old Long Steady Distance (no more than 60% of VO2 Max or about 75% OF HEART RATE RESERVER) regimen burns fat, increases mitocondria density, and spares catabolic tissue destruction. For these of us losing weight and who do not want to lose muscle, most of the riding should be in Zone 1 and Zone 2. Of course, I know many will challenge this. I have lost 34 pounds......this year.

  12. #137
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa Minor View Post
    Sounds like a great ride Null66. I'm impressed with your speed - I usually poke along
    at 8 to 10 mph.

    Charlie
    Thanks!
    I'm about where I was at the end of last season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Null66.......if you can get one long ride in about 2 weeks before the 200K and then dial it back on intensity and distance for the week of the event, you should be ok.

    The reason I was asking about BP meds is I was shocked how much lower my max heart rates were after starting cycling again after a 15 or so year hiatis. At 40 years old, I would max out at almost 200 BPM and my threshold was 168-170. On recent rides I could barely hit 154 BPM on hills. I started reading and trying to figure out what was wrong and even contemplated seeing a Cardioilogist. I am not on any meds but I read how many meds will impact heart rate. I joined a cycling club and went on a brisk club ride yesterday and hit 177 hanging on for dear life on a 2 mile long climb into a 25 mph wind. So, the bottomline is your post gave me some food for thought trying to figure out a training regimen. My old numbers just don't work and I have to find a new set.

    THe old Long Steady Distance (no more than 60% of VO2 Max or about 75% OF HEART RATE RESERVER) regimen burns fat, increases mitocondria density, and spares catabolic tissue destruction. For these of us losing weight and who do not want to lose muscle, most of the riding should be in Zone 1 and Zone 2. Of course, I know many will challenge this. I have lost 34 pounds......this year.

    Would love to go on a long ride!
    I like long rides... It's what I like most actually.
    Friday is looking a likely day for a ride! If work schedule stays clear, then I'll take the day!

    Weather has been perverse. Crappy during the week, but at least 1 good day during the weekend. My SO and I took a week off to decompress and complete a home improvement task and the weather allowed us 3 rides!!! All were the kind of days that just make your month!


    Did you do anything that allowed you to push your heart harder?
    Was it the weight loss? Congrats by the way.
    I have been on BP meds, but am not now. Do you know if there's a long term effect on mhr?


    So far caffeine reduction and better sleep have lowered my resting and improved the response to workload, but max is holding on the the high 140's-150...

    LSD is supported by studies, as second best way to reduce visceral fat. Visceral is the fat that is toxic to well being. Visceral fat also releases hormones that impairs fat loss... Rides were >4 hours....
    Intervals were the first best...


    Commuting is less "fun" but seems to improve my life enjoyment far more then I can really explain.

  13. #138
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    Null66> I wish I had an answer why my max was not much over 150 beats per minute. I guess I forgot what it was like to suffer on the bike. There was no way I was going to get dropped on my first ride with the club I joined, so, I would have to say it was foolish pride. I did make an appointment with my Doc. I don't understand why it is taking so long to recover after rides. I don't know what is worse, being fat or old. I know old, fa, and slow ain't workin for me.

    The heart rate break thru is not weight loss since I have been dieting since the first of the year but only riding for maybe 3 weeks. I did up my COQ10 and Ubiquinol supplements.

  14. #139
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Not feeling it tonight.
    Tried anyway....

    Summary
    Distance: 13.44 mi
    Time: 1:00:04
    Avg Speed: 13.4 mph
    Elevation Gain: 13 ft
    Calories: 511 C
    Avg Temperature: 69.8 F
    Details
    Timing
    Time: 1:00:04
    Moving Time: 59:54
    Elapsed Time: 1:00:05
    Avg Speed: 13.4 mph
    Avg Moving Speed: 13.5 mph
    Max Speed: 17.1 mph
    SpeedPace
    Elevation
    Elevation Gain: 13 ft
    Elevation Loss: 20 ft
    Min Elevation: 294 ft
    Max Elevation: 308 ft
    Heart Rate
    Avg HR: 125 bpm
    Max HR: 137 bpm
    Zones% of Maxbpm
    Cadence
    Avg Bike Cadence: 78 rpm
    Max Bike Cadence: 99 rpm

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Null66 View Post
    Not feeling it tonight.
    Tried anyway....

    Summary
    Distance: 13.44 mi
    Time: 1:00:04
    Avg Speed: 13.4 mph
    Elevation Gain: 13 ft
    Calories: 511 C
    Avg Temperature: 69.8 F
    Details
    Timing
    Time: 1:00:04
    Moving Time: 59:54
    Elapsed Time: 1:00:05
    Avg Speed: 13.4 mph
    Avg Moving Speed: 13.5 mph
    Max Speed: 17.1 mph
    SpeedPace
    Elevation
    Elevation Gain: 13 ft
    Elevation Loss: 20 ft
    Min Elevation: 294 ft
    Max Elevation: 308 ft
    Heart Rate
    Avg HR: 125 bpm
    Max HR: 137 bpm
    Zones% of Maxbpm
    Cadence
    Avg Bike Cadence: 78 rpm
    Max Bike Cadence: 99 rpm
    If the legs don't loosen up after the warm up, just do an easy, easy ride or go home. Never force it. Good work!

  16. #141
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    If the legs don't loosen up after the warm up, just do an easy, easy ride or go home. Never force it. Good work!
    Sorry,
    I was too brief.
    Wasn't tightness. When tight, I warm up and stretch on the bike. If still tight a foam roller is marvelous on the posterior chain!

    I've been having troubles eating. I'm not trying to loose weight at this time, for bunch of reasons. But appetite is absent... I think it is an effect of intervals. When lifting it is a sign of exceeding recovery... So doubling down on recovery factors... One can always improve recovery factors. But I'm thinking it is a side effect of doing intervals 4x week. Other then a bit of sensation in legs (doesn't rise to discomfort, let alone pain) not seeing other signs of recovery issues.

    I don't think I had enough carbs during the day. 2 Bananas and an apple for all day prior to the ride. I had enough total food... Just not enough to make up for a cold day. I was depleted going in. Usually I can summon enough will to go anyway and make a decent time of it... It does seem that relative to lifting more carbs are required even at low carb lifestyle to avoid the negatives of really low carb.

    ps. I count fruit/veg as carbs though most exclude them from daily totals...

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Null66 View Post
    I've been having troubles eating. I'm not trying to loose weight at this time, for bunch of reasons. But appetite is absent... I think it is an effect of intervals. When lifting it is a sign of exceeding recovery... So doubling down on recovery factors... One can always improve recovery factors. But I'm thinking it is a side effect of doing intervals 4x week. Other then a bit of sensation in legs (doesn't rise to discomfort, let alone pain) not seeing other signs of recovery issues.
    Most people I know limit intervals to twice/week...

  18. #143
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    Most people I know limit intervals to twice/week...
    Time Crunched pattern for New Century... was 3x week and 2x long rides. Been lucky to get 1 weekly real ride...

    As predicted with higher frequency, recovery has been an issue.

  19. #144
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    I think I got it figured out.

    I think I just haven't developed the blood supplies in my legs enough to drive my heart, or perhaps even enough to develop my heart enough...

    Summary
    Distance: 15.15 mi
    Time: 1:08:06
    Avg Speed: 13.3 mph
    Elevation Gain: 5 ft
    Calories: 520 C
    Avg Temperature: 71.4 F
    Details
    Timing
    Time: 1:08:06
    Moving Time: 1:08:00
    Elapsed Time: 1:08:18
    Avg Speed: 13.3 mph
    Avg Moving Speed: 13.4 mph
    Max Speed: 20.1 mph
    SpeedPace
    Elevation
    Elevation Gain: 5 ft
    Min Elevation: 290 ft
    Max Elevation: 297 ft
    Heart Rate
    Avg HR: 119 bpm
    Max HR: 143 bpm
    Zones% of Maxbpm
    Cadence
    Avg Bike Cadence: 78 rpm
    Max Bike Cadence: 107 rpm

  20. #145
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    You are over-trained.

    1. Eating problems
    2. Difficulty raising HR
    3. Intervals 4x per week
    4. Motiviation and mood to enjoy the rides seems to be vaning
    5. If you are waking up in the middle of the night, I rest my case
    6. If you track your resting HR when you wake up an it is elevated, no question. Back off.

    Time off and then LSD and then no more than 2 hard, quality workouts per week. Professionals don't do intervals 4x/wk especially in Feb/March.

    I would recommend John Hughes book on Distance Cycling. He puts rest into the program, which is what I think you need.

  21. #146
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    Null66......most relatively new cyclists lack the muscles, joint, tendon strength to actually overtrain because they blow these out before overtraining. With your prior intensive weight training, it is more likely for someone like you to over do it.

    Anyway, just trying to give you some food fr thought. To some extent, I think you are over-doing it.

    A more accurate indication of over-reaching is an inability to elevate your pulse rate and sustain it at a sub-threshold level.
    How to Tell When You're Over-Reaching or Over-Training | ACTIVE

    Intensity | Road Bike Rider

  22. #147
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Marvelous ride.
    A day w/o compare.
    Tried to practice climbing. Tried to practice energy conservation and minimizing metabolic waste.
    Had a great time. Only a few hills were not fun...

    Summary
    Distance: 50.22 mi
    Time: 4:35:13
    Avg Speed: 10.9 mph
    Elevation Gain: 1,972 ft
    Calories: 1,931 C
    Avg Temperature: 77.1 F
    Details
    Timing
    Time: 4:35:13
    Moving Time: 4:34:03
    Elapsed Time: 6:45:10
    Avg Speed: 10.9 mph
    Avg Moving Speed: 11.0 mph
    Max Speed: 40.3 mph
    SpeedPace
    Elevation
    Elevation Gain: 1,972 ft
    Elevation Loss: 1,920 ft
    Min Elevation: 349 ft
    Max Elevation: 724 ft
    Heart Rate
    Avg HR: 119 bpm
    Max HR: 140 bpm
    Zones% of Maxbpm
    Cadence
    Avg Bike Cadence: 71 rpm
    Max Bike Cadence: 127 rpm

    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Null66......most relatively new cyclists lack the muscles, joint, tendon strength to actually overtrain because they blow these out before overtraining. With your prior intensive weight training, it is more likely for someone like you to over do it.


    Anyway, just trying to give you some food fr thought. To some extent, I think you are over-doing it.






    How to Tell When You're Over-Reaching or Over-Training | ACTIVE


    Intensity | Road Bike Rider

    Weatherby:
    Visited Doctor on checkup. BP was way high for me, 150's over high 90's low hundreds. PULSE WAS WAY LOW... 54!!! Not seen resting pulse this low, like in a million years. Doc said it was "defensive" to keep BP lower as activity increased. Doc strongly recommended blood test for near term heart issues, and an echo cardiogram. And insisted on a BP med, so choose one I have tolerated for short term. I took her up on all.

    Interestingly, BP/Pulse had normalized the next morning and were marvelous AFTER a ride... Very supportive of your observation.

    She was very adamant that this was an abundance of caution, but did mention that even if long shot of blockage played out, it would be stent and I'd be back on bike in no time... Didn't have the heart to tell her, HELL NO! I would go the Ornish / Hadler route instead. As I AM capable and HAVE pulled off extreme lifestyle changes before...

    I'll get the results prior to the big

    All those points you listed are same signals for over training in the lifting activity. One difference is abnormally low resting heart rate. This actually agrees with your point of daily higher pulse as with activities the pulse goes up more then usual with activity...

    SO yeah, I'm willing to accept I have over reached.

    And yes, waking at night and again all too early in am, but don't feel like going to bed.
    I've recently increased protein intake about 1/2 way to heavy lifting levels, and have been trying to sleep more...

    Thanks for the links on over training. It is different then lifting in the particulars... Like if I pushed too far with lifting (usually legs) stairs would HURT like a MF! and I would miss lifts or reps... With endurance it seems that those HOLY F! painful signals are far more subtle...

    Interestingly, lifting it is much easier for a newbie to overreach...

    A nap is a definite today!
    Last edited by Null66; 03-23-14 at 11:15 AM.

  23. #148
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    So decided that I better rest. Well that's opver and it's last week to work towards the ride.
    Weather was not great, but the wind was 15-25 with gusts. So went to gym for a lift.

    Dead lifts:
    3x3@225,315
    3,2,1@405
    2x500


    HSPL squat machine
    3x3@370,460,550
    2x1@640
    1 really, really, sloppy 730


    Lost a LOT of strength in deads while I've been concentrating on riding. From 225-315 didn't think I would try 500... hit 405 and figured I could do a single...
    Lost less on squat, riding has built better quads since I have been sumo and wide stance long head has always sucked. Riding has been really good at balancing it out. That's why not as much fall off on squat....


    Thanks guys for pointing to my folly.
    I think I caught it in time and rested long enough as HR is back to normal in am and through out the day.

  24. #149
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Kidnapped Daughter and brought her to the local green way for first post knee surgery ride outside...

    She had a blast!

    But, my damned new stem broke... 2 of 4 bolts clamping handlebars stripped. Bolts are not long enough to get a decent amount of threading, and worse the alloy is SOFT!

    So Left Dear Daughter on MUP to go back home get old stem and back to mup, install stem and quick ride.

    She got like 12 miles...

    I got:
    2.8 miles +

    Summary
    Distance: 5.05 mi
    Time: 25:51
    Avg Speed: 11.7 mph
    Elevation Gain: 30 ft
    Calories: 124 C
    Avg Temperature: 66.7 F
    Details
    Timing
    Time: 25:51
    Moving Time: 25:40
    Elapsed Time: 28:18
    Avg Speed: 11.7 mph
    Avg Moving Speed: 11.8 mph
    Max Speed: 18.4 mph
    SpeedPace
    Elevation
    Elevation Gain: 30 ft
    Elevation Loss: 47 ft
    Min Elevation: 60 ft
    Max Elevation: 102 ft
    Heart Rate
    Avg HR: 97 bpm
    Max HR: 109 bpm
    Zones% of Maxbpm
    Cadence
    Avg Bike Cadence: 72 rpm
    Max Bike Cadence: 99 rpm



    Interestingly, I'm now on Propranolol for BP (working quite well) but heart rate barely moved under load. No wonder last year my riding had a break through when on propranolol... Too bad that after a while it makes me profoundly morose... Will see if it does it again this time...

  25. #150
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Well, was debating what to do for last week that I can push hard.
    Was going to commute back to back days... That would be ~50 miles and 2000ft. of climb... But work had other ideas. Last night had to work and there was no way I could not sleep in... SO put in a few hours after I woke up and then went for ride.

    Summary
    Distance: 50.06 mi
    Time: 4:29:07
    Avg Speed: 11.2 mph
    Elevation Gain: 1,808 ft
    Calories: 1,559 C
    Avg Temperature: 84.8 F
    Details
    Timing
    Time: 4:29:07
    Moving Time: 4:27:23
    Elapsed Time: 5:46:48
    Avg Speed: 11.2 mph
    Avg Moving Speed: 11.2 mph
    Max Speed: 34.8 mph
    SpeedPace
    Elevation
    Elevation Gain: 1,808 ft
    Elevation Loss: 1,841 ft
    Min Elevation: 181 ft
    Max Elevation: 469 ft
    Heart Rate
    Avg HR: 108 bpm
    Max HR: 128 bpm
    Zones% of Maxbpm
    Cadence
    Avg Bike Cadence: 72 rpm
    Max Bike Cadence: 126 rpm

    One of those amazing days...

    I switched up BP meds. Going back on Propranolol. This drove down way too high BP but cut heart rate by about 20 resting and 10-15 when riding... I was able to go as fast as usual, but with lower heart rate and perceived effort. I backed off when ever heart rate exceeded 120... Was pretty successful. Now that BP is lower I will back down the dose...

    Not all that confident about the 200k, it's 2.5 times the distance of today and a bit over 4x the climb... Oh well, it will take as long as it takes, even if that is a DNF...

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