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Thread: Ketosis

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylecivicsi View Post
    This guy ate only Mcdonalds food for 3 months, and managed to loose weight AND lower his cholesterol. Guess there isn't anything inherently wrong with that either?
    Sounds like the guy was eating fairly healthy for 2 out of the 3 meals and staying under 2000 calories a day. If you can eat 3 meals per day at McDonald's and stay under 2000 calories a day than you're obviously not getting the large value meal with fries and regular soda. At least in Supersize Me the guy actually ate what most of us would consider "typical" fast food meals (even if he was overeating to the point of physical discomfort.) The twinkie diet was similarly misleading because, other than the twinkies, the guy was eating fairly healthy.

    "Mr Cisna embarked on the diet as an experiment to show how we can eat anything as long as we stick to a limit of 2,000 calories per day and stay close to the recommended dietary allowances for nutrients...On a typical day, Mr Cisna ate two egg white delights, a bowl of maple oatmeal and one percent milk for breakfast, and lunch would normally be a salad...But it wasn't just 'healthy' fast food that he ate; for dinner he would indulge in a value meal like a Big Mac or a quarter pounder with cheese, and he'd also sometimes snack on ice cream sundaes...During the three months, Mr Cisna - who admits that he didn't exercise or watch his calorie intake before the diet - also began walking for 45 minutes a day, a factor which no doubt contributed to the results. "
    Last edited by Dunbar; 01-16-14 at 03:12 PM.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Ursa Minor's Avatar
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    Really guys cut LenA a break. The tone in this thread is like a witch hunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa Minor View Post
    Really guys cut LenA a break. The tone in this thread is like a witch hunt.

    Charlie
    But Daaad, he started it.

    He started the thread knowing perfectly well that he was bringing up a hotly debated topic.

    It's not a witch hunt when a majority of individuals are attempting to use sound, scientifically and medically support arguements to point out that there are potentially, serious, long-term consequences to such a diet and that there are far safer and generally accepted as healthy, balanced diets that provide equal results when the same energy, attention to detail and motivation are applied.

    We, as a community, would be remiss if we didn't provide the counter points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    You can get yourself in a lather all you want... why would I waste my time listening to someone who is incapable of understanding the fundamental difference between a high fat, and high protein diet?
    Same reason we would bother to read a post by someone who believes urine volume is an adequate indicator of kidney function. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone, but this You disagree with me therefore you are incapable of understanding and your views are invalid, now go away stuff is a crock, IMHO. The vast majority of members here are intelligent, constructive individuals and you are no more of a nutritional guru than they.

    I appreciate that you took the time to tell us about your experience and express your views and I hope you continue to do so, but please, respect that others may offer contradicting theories and evidence and express different opinions. Even among the top world-renowned experts in the fields of nutrition, sports performance, physiology, nephrology, and a host of other 'ologies there is controversy and debate, so why would you expect any different when a bunch of amateurs (by comparison) exchange information and ideas?
    Last edited by Myosmith; 01-16-14 at 05:48 PM.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    Sure.

    Fatty fresh meat, chicken thighs and legs with skin, some cured meat, fatty fish, dairy, eggs, nuts and non starchy and leafy veggies

    Coconut oil and butter

    No grain of any kind. I Fail cuz I love white rice n breads

    No sugar of any kind, or sugar substitutes. I Fail cuz fluffed up coffee n sodas

    No veggies oils

    No starchy root veggies potatoes goes well w/ my steaks

    No fast food, no junk food, no convenience food Don't have time to cook all meals so I REALLY fail here plus eat Payday bars on my centuries

    No alcohol BEER is Fuel and has some carbs

    I'm retired so it's easy for me to just grab something when I'm hungry and follow my golden rule of eating to live, not living to eat.

    No set meal schedules, no menu planning

    I can go touring with just a bag of nuts, some cheese and sausage and be good for days.

    Pretty much it.......
    thanks!! in red is where I'd fail in the first day

    I fail everything except the veggie oil, that get's violated with fries, fried chicken and lumpia

    Then again I fail most named diets cuz I NEED carbs to ride my bike and proteins for recovery. And I usually am whatevers on the fatty stuff but limit the intake.

  6. #31
    Senior Member snowman40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    Sure.

    Fatty fresh meat, chicken thighs and legs with skin, some cured meat, fatty fish, dairy, eggs, nuts and non starchy and leafy veggies

    Coconut oil and butter

    No grain of any kind. No sugar of any kind, or sugar substitutes.- FAIL

    No veggies oils

    No starchy root veggies- FAIL

    No fast food, no junk food, no convenience food- FAIL

    No alcohol

    I'm retired so it's easy for me to just grab something when I'm hungry and follow my golden rule of eating to live, not living to eat.

    No set meal schedules, no menu planning

    I can go touring with just a bag of nuts, some cheese and sausage and be good for days.

    Pretty much it.......
    I've noted where I'd struggle and fail. Starchy carbs I have to have every so often as something in them helps my joints be smoother feeling, although it goes straight to my stomach... I have to have some sugar in my tea and every once in awhile some Subway.
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  7. #32
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    You're subject to gout, kidney stones, and kidney failure.... but at least you're not hungry!
    High protein diets are not healthy over the long term... but the OP wasn't talking about that.

    Ketogenic / low carb diets limit protein to normal levels while they increase dietary fat and put stricter limits on carbs / sugar.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    High protein diets are not healthy over the long term... but the OP wasn't talking about that.

    Ketogenic / low carb diets limit protein to normal levels while they increase dietary fat and put stricter limits on carbs / sugar.
    Remember: the original post in this thread didn't say anything about ketogenic diets. It just said the OP was in ketosis. Ketosis happens in response to any low-carb diet. Yes: because the OP didn't say which type of low-carb diet he was on, I assumed it was likely the ever-popular Atkins diet. Now that we know the OP is on a high-fat diet we can start worrying about the potential for coronary disease, kidney stones, liver damage and kidney damage.

    So far, I haven't been able to find any long-term studies that show this type of diet is healthy and two years on a diet isn't proof that it will have no long-term side-effects...

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    Give up:

    Quinoa - in exchange for- Fat
    Oatmeal - in exchange for - Fat
    Raisins - in exchange for - Fat
    Fresh Strawberries- in exchange for - Fat
    Fresh Blueberries - in exchange for - Fat
    Bannanas - in exchange for- Fat
    Apples - in exchange for- Fat
    Oranges - in exchange for- Fat
    Plums - in exchange for- Fat
    Breads - in exchange for- Fat
    Potatoes - in exchange for- Fat
    Kumara - in exchange for- Fat
    Squash - in exchange for- Fat
    Pumpkin - in exchange for- Fat
    Rice - in exchange for- Fat
    Dates - in exchange for- Fat
    Chocolate - in exchange for- Fat
    Wine - in exchange for- Fat
    Beer - in exchange for- Fat
    Pasta - in exchange for- Fat
    Pomegranite - in exchange for- Fat


    I could continue, but, I think everyone gets the idea.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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    Please read #17

    I'm not here to debate my choices, or win a popularity contest, or trouble myself over the insipid nature of conformist thinking.

    Just trying to be helpful and offer an option especially to folks like me who are basically carb junkie, binge eaters.

    You know that constant gnawing, and the feeling impotence you get when you can't turn down another bowl of pasta, after you've already had a bowl of ice cream....and the ensuing depression that comes with failure after failure to pull yourself together.

    That's the kind of stuff you might be dealing with, snowman40, I don't know, but I'm sure there clydes that are

    A low carb diet can free you of that if, and it's a big if, you can stick with it long enough to go into ketosis and begin to fuel your body with the fat stored in your adipose tissue. The weight will fly off....so will the temptations.....and it need not be a lifelong way of eating as I have chosen it to be

    of course, YMMV

    My observation is that when folks want to lose weight, all they do it talk about what they are going to eat :-) kinda weird when you think about it.

    The most difficult, yet probably the most satisfying part of this adventure was when I trained myself to pretty much ignore and deny myself the pleasure of well prepared really tasty food. There are other things in life that can offer as much

    I understand my approach is radical, but based on my clean bill of health from the most recent battery of tests, not detrimental to my health. My M.D. of over 20 years is darn near astonished in the improvement of my physical condition over the last 2 years.

    But I really should get a second opinion.

    Hello? yes I'd like to make an appointment what's the problem?

    Well, I've lost 85 pounds, I can ride a bicycle all day, my psoriasis and arthritis are in remission, I'm 67 but I can fly out of bed in the morning with hardly an ach or a pain. I have the "prostate of a 20 year old" and generally feel great... Oh! Oh! my goodness you better get over here ASAP, we got the tests that will find something wrong with you, guaranteed....we got the latest hot meds and just built a new wing of suites that you'll just love

    Sheesh! :-)

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    At least in Supersize Me the guy actually ate what most of us would consider "typical" fast food meals (even if he was overeating to the point of physical discomfort.)
    Also, remember that, under the rules he set, the Supersize Me guy: 1. Had to eat every item on the menu at least once, and 2. had to get the supersize version of the meal if the cashier taking his order asked if he would like to "supersize it" and 3. did not change his exercise habits. Notably, McDonald's stopped the "supersize it" campaign after the film, was released.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    You know that constant gnawing, and the feeling impotence you get when you can't turn down another bowl of pasta, after you've already had a bowl of ice cream....and the ensuing depression that comes with failure after failure to pull yourself together.
    Making sensible eating choices can provide the same benefits! I don't have scientific proof, but my guess is that any diet which cuts out fast food, restaurant meals, candy, soft drinks, and other pre-packaged crap will reduce cravings in a similar fashion. That's certainly what I found after a couple of weeks of eating a (more) balanced diet...

    The most difficult, yet probably the most satisfying part of this adventure was when I trained myself to pretty much ignore and deny myself the pleasure of well prepared really tasty food. There are other things in life that can offer as much
    Yikes! That sounds like my idea of Hell! I'm pretty satisfied that while eating a balanced diet I've lost 50lbs, kept it off for over four years and don't have to worry about what foods I can or can't eat.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    Yikes! That sounds like my idea of Hell! I'm pretty satisfied that while eating a balanced diet I've lost 50lbs, kept it off for over four years and don't have to worry about what foods I can or can't eat.
    +1.

    And with no offense to you intended, I am going to evoke the comparison between arguing with someome on the Internet and competing in the Special Olympics.
    "I've wanted you to succeed, but watching you find excuse after excuse after excuse and then laugh it off as the loveable, quirky, chubby guy is getting old."--Ill.Clyde

  14. #39
    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    I'm not as focussed as lenA as I eat more veggies but I do feel better when I drop the grains/sugar and pretty much stick with low glycemic index foods. I don't really see an advantage to a high carb diet unless you're doing sprints- a lot of sprints. The advantage for longer rides is that I don't bonk and I don't have to swill those nasty gels; which is nice but again they're at moderate intensity but long duration.

    Nuts, avocados, cheese etc.- that's pretty much what I fuel on for longer (100 mi) rides. I'm not convinced that ketogenic diets necessarily cause acidosis.
    Lightning P-38 / M5 M-Racer/Ryan Vanguard

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    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstorkel View Post
    Remember: the original post in this thread didn't say anything about ketogenic diets. It just said the OP was in ketosis. Ketosis happens in response to any low-carb diet. Yes: because the OP didn't say which type of low-carb diet he was on, I assumed it was likely the ever-popular Atkins diet. Now that we know the OP is on a high-fat diet we can start worrying about the potential for coronary disease, kidney stones, liver damage and kidney damage.

    So far, I haven't been able to find any long-term studies that show this type of diet is healthy and two years on a diet isn't proof that it will have no long-term side-effects...
    My wife and I both eat a higher fat / low carb (<100 grams / day) and do not eat wheat, processed foods, processed oils, and limit fruits and non glutenous grains. Our protein intake matches our physical requirements and the fat intake is considerably higher.

    Your claim that this would cause coronary, kidney, and liver issues just isn't backed up by any research and folks talking about acidosis are confusing this with keto-acidosis which is a condition that primarily afflicts those with type 1 diabetes and not ketosis. Ketosis is when your body switches to running on ketones instead of glucose, which it is very capable of doing and something it is designed to do.

    My blood panels look stellar in every respect as do my wife's... she has lost 50 pounds of post surgical weight that would not go anywhere despite her eating what would be considered a stellar diet but as soon as her carb intake dropped below 30 grams a day her weight loss was effortless.

    Our diet is varied and tasteful and includes lots of delicious vegetables as this is our primary source of carbs while we enjoy full fat foods like bacon, meats, cream, and butter. We use a lot of coconut oil and olive oil and enjoy a little dark chocolate from time to time and even have room for a little whiskey.

  16. #41
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
    Give up:

    Quinoa - in exchange for- Fat
    Oatmeal - in exchange for - Fat
    Raisins - in exchange for - Fat
    Fresh Strawberries- in exchange for - Fat
    Fresh Blueberries - in exchange for - Fat
    Bannanas - in exchange for- Fat
    Apples - in exchange for- Fat
    Oranges - in exchange for- Fat
    Plums - in exchange for- Fat
    Breads - in exchange for- Fat
    Potatoes - in exchange for- Fat
    Kumara - in exchange for- Fat
    Squash - in exchange for- Fat
    Pumpkin - in exchange for- Fat
    Rice - in exchange for- Fat
    Dates - in exchange for- Fat
    Chocolate - in exchange for- Fat
    Wine - in exchange for- Fat
    Beer - in exchange for- Fat
    Pasta - in exchange for- Fat
    Pomegranite - in exchange for- Fat


    I could continue, but, I think everyone gets the idea.
    I eat all these things except those that contain wheat / grains and don't really like quinoa... limiting fruit does not mean you don't eat it and I just adjust my other carbs to compensate.

    We also eat good quantities of liver and heart as they are higher in many vitamins and minerals than fruit and s great for endurance.

    This kind of diet has worked for the Inuit for millenia... other benefits might include a lack of dental issues, no incidence of diabetes, and less autoimmune disorders. People who have gone and worked with the Inuit and adopted their low carb diet have been amazed at how it increases endurance.

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    There's actually a lot of research because the diet has therapeutic uses. Especially for the renal problems it can cause.

    And there is quite a large diabetes problem among Inuit.

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    Senior Member delcrossv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kc0bbq View Post
    ...And there is quite a large diabetes problem among Inuit.
    Is that with the traditional diet or when they start on the "modern" diet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by delcrossv View Post
    Is that with the traditional diet or when they start on the "modern" diet?
    Modern. A lot of Native Americans have the same trouble with European-style and/or processed-food diets.
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    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kc0bbq View Post
    There's actually a lot of research because the diet has therapeutic uses. Especially for the renal problems it can cause.

    And there is quite a large diabetes problem among Inuit.
    There is a diabetes problem with Inuit and Aboriginals that is disproportionate compared to the general population but this only manifested when their diet became westernized.

    Our western diet has also degraded over the past 40-50 years as more and more of what people eat is processed, it contains a lot more sugar, and fat has become a bad word when fat is really just one of the best energy sources we can use.

    Sweden has moved to a new national health model that includes more fats and less carbs... they have probably researched this more than anyone and were early adopters of the low fat model that has been in place for 40 years and realized that was a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    This kind of diet has worked for the Inuit for millenia...
    But: are the Inuit healthy? It doesn't seem like there's any compelling evidence to suggest that they are...

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    LenA,

    I had a really cute and witty response to the nonsense in this thread, however I would rather spend that energy doing something vastly more pleasurable. So.....

    I will repeat the famous adage of C&A. FACTS HAVE NO PLACE HERE. Especially, MODERN facts. Realize this is really the blind leading the blind as the some of the most recognized names have been here for god knows how many yrs and yet.....are still obese? And then giving out "factual' info? You're beating a dead horse and better suited to another forum and relegating C/A for the lulz.

    I agree that keto is fab however, 2yrs almost and going strong at a size 3 from 14, perfect skin/hair, and added muscle mass. I guess those lifelong epileptic kids that manage themselves and live full healthy lives for the past what? 60yrs are all placebo somehow as well.

    keto on, keto strong!
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    Thanks, catlikeone. This thread was a real eye opener for me.

    Thanks, Sixty Fiver, for carrying the message.

    I guess we'll just have to wait patiently for the paradigm shift...then we can revel in the streets with our I told you so banners :-)

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    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    Thanks, catlikeone. This thread was a real eye opener for me.

    Thanks, Sixty Fiver, for carrying the message.

    I guess we'll just have to wait patiently for the paradigm shift...then we can revel in the streets with our I told you so banners :-)
    There are many roads to take when it comes to getting healthier, the LCHF model appears to be one of the most successful and practical as it eliminates a bunch of poor quality food and replaces it with healthier options although it does go against the low fat trend that has gone on over the past 40 years.

    My wife has lost 50 pounds since she adopted a very low carb diet... this started this past August and although her weight loss has slowed she continues to get curvier and curvier as her muscle mass has increased and as she has picked up her pace at a new job.

    This weight gain stemmed from post surgical medications / steroids she had to take... she also has no thyroid so has to take synthetic replacements and the way she described this was like running on a 4 cylinder instead of a V8.

    She already had a very good diet with no excess, was not eating any processed food, junk food, or wheat / gluten as she has celiac disease... she started eating this way while she recovered from from whooping cough / pertussis which cut back the amount of physical activity she could do. It kept her off her bike for months and even now she can't go as far and as fast as she had been.

    So by cutting back on activity and changing a few things in her diet she has managed to lose weight easily and I can barely keep up with her now... this way of eating also appears to work extremely well for those with thyroid issues as it affects your endocrine system and metabolism.

    It is a very natural way to eat and suits the way we have evolved; a nutrient dense diet that is lower in carbs will either keep you in ketosis or allow you cycle naturally between a
    glycogen (glucose) fuelled state and a ketone (fat) powered state where your body taps into those fat reserves as it should.

    The problem with most is the constant input of carbs prevents them from tapping into those natural reserves and that too many carbs add to those reserves. People who engage in regular exercise should experience frequent ketosis if they are active enough to exhaust their glycogen stores (this is the bonk) but a lot of people are not active enough and consume too many carbs, and in particular, the wrong kinds of carbs.

    My wife eats more now than she did before and does not count calories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catlikeone View Post

    ...I will repeat the famous adage of C&A. FACTS HAVE NO PLACE HERE. Especially, MODERN facts. Realize this is really the blind leading the blind as the some of the most recognized names have been here for god knows how many yrs and yet.....are still obese? And then giving out "factual' info? You're beating a dead horse and better suited to another forum and relegating C/A for the lulz. ....
    It a shame that you resort to unsubstantiated insults. The C&A forum is one of the more reasonable sub-forums within BF and we would like to keep as such. No one has questioned that individuals get results with Keto diets. And, unlike you, for the most part the detracoers or opponents aren't attacking the individuals who have experienced those results. What is being questioned is the long term consequences of engaging in such a diet. Recognize that we simply continue to subscribe to well conducted, peer reviewed, accepted and published studies with regard to what constitutes a healthy and sustainable diet. When Keto diets have the same, you will see more wide spread support for them. But, in the meantime, please allow us and the forum to engage in healthy discussion and even debate without resorting to personal attacks and attempts to discredit authors who may hold an opposing view.
    Birth Certificate, Passport, Marriage License Driver's License and Residency Permit all say I'm a Fred. I guess there's no denying it.

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