brawlo

That all depends on how you remove your pedals. If they have and you use an allen key for removal, then putting something more permanent on like the silicone could be a PITA. If you use a pedal spanner then go for it.

achoo

Glad they've worked for you so far.

But why? No one says it better than here:

November Bicycles: Race smart. - November Bicycles Blog - Hip To Be*Square

LabRat2k3

My why is simply, I'm a cheapskate. Those low spoke count rims came stock on my bike, and I figured I'd ride them until they failed. If someone my size was asking me about buying rims I would recommend that they get a higher spoke count just to be on the safe side. I don't put the miles in that a lot of you do, it will take me 3-5 years to log 10,000 miles. If my rims last me that long before they fail then I figure I got my money's worth out of them.

chaadster

But of course, the point is not to have as few spokes as possible, but to have a strong wheel, which is a more complex matter than simply spoke count.

Spoke type, size, lacing, tension, balance of tension, hub type, bracing angle, nipple type, rim rigidity, rim strength...all of these need to be considered to build a good wheel, which by the way, is also a more complex matter than simple durability over X number of miles or years.

In my mind, reducing the "wheel issue" to simply "spoke count" really misses the important stuff. I mean, I get that with "typical hubs, spokes, and rims" you can be fairly assured that a 36 spoke wheel will be more durable than a 18 spoke wheel of same, but then your left with nothing of use once we move away from typical stuff.

TrojanHorse

That "no tire lever" rule leads me to think the rim is more frail than I'd like for every day use. is the center portion of the rim deep enough to loosen the tire enough to get off with your hands? I've had a few wheels over the years that I could change no tool, but not many.

chaadster

I just left Tree Fort, my LBS, and talking to the guys there about the tire lever thing, they say it's standard for tubeless, including those from Shimano.

As to whether the tire can be removed by hand, I can only say that I presume so, as I've yet to do it. I'm on the way home now to install the Ones, so I'll know soon!

Silvercivic27

Sweet wheels, chaad!

chaadster

Thanks Silvercivic!

Okay, so dismounting the Atom Comps was a cinch! Like one of the easiest of all time. I dunno what the fuss could have been about.

The Ones went on fairly easily, too, but I had to use generous amounts of soapy water and both my compressor and floor pump to do it. My compressor was getting up to around 90psi quickly, but that was all it could deliver. I then quickly connected the floor pump and pushed it up to 120psi, which worked.

i rode them for a mile or so to make sure they were seated properly, added sealant, and reininflated to the max 120psi again to make sure they set.

I probably won't get a proper ride until Saturday, but they felt different-- sure footed and direct-- on those shakedown spins, and smooth, so I'm eager to air down a touch and see what they can do.

Big Pete 1982

More power to you if you can get away with it. Personally, I was riding some low spoke wheels and they were fine for about 2000 miles. Then I started breaking spokes left and right.

chaadster

achoo

The logical contortions people go through to justify low-spoke-count wheels are amusing. I'm sure somewhere on this planet is a sumo wrestler riding around on 2-spoke wheels. And there are probably a few people who have survived playing with a plugged-in toaster as a tub toy.

Ahhh, fashion is a cruel mistress.

Weatherby

I used to ride three spoke wheels made by Specialized in around 1990. But I only wieghed 165 lb back then and they never broke although I am note convinced if they were all that fast.

jc650

My new Synapse came with Shimano RS11's 16f 20r and so far so good, I go between 220-225. I have another set of wheels for when these explode but I really like em so far.

Wilfred Laurier

at least get a black zip tie

brawlo

Also consider the whole weight equation for wheelsets. Lots of newer wheelsets reduce their weight by reducing the weight (and durability) of their hubs. The strength to support lower spoke counts means the rims are beefed up significantly, thus adding more weight to the outside of the wheel which is where you don't want it. When I purchased my Felt, it came with RS10 wheels. I got a credit on those and changed over to my Ultegra hub 32 spoke Velocity A23 wheelset. My wheelset was 80g lighter than the RS10s and the balance of the weight was closer to the hub, rather than out at the rim.

chaadster

I love that you can wrap your mind around not only the idea of playing with a plugged in toaster as a tub toy, but the survivability of such a scenario, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised the elements of wheel building go right over your head! Hahaha!

chaadster

How did you determine the rim weight of the RS10s in order to compare to A23s? Usually the RS10s would be lighter than Ultegra/A23, but both are heavy.

chaadster

Word. That'd look better.

brawlo

It was the weight of the whole wheelset, not just the rims. My view of the whole low spoke count mantra is for looks and to save weight. When it doesn't save you weight, it is purely about looks. Let it however be said that I don't have anything against the low spoke count Shimano wheelsets especially. I've seen more than enough heavy riders admit to using them to know that they'd be a trustworthy choice.

For the areas I ride, where within 10min you're on the edge of town and headed into areas with no mobile reception, I favour robustness over looks. If perhaps a spoke breaks on me (and so far, touch wood it hasn't), then my 32 spoke wheelset should get me home, while a 16/20 wheelset will definitely have problems.

It must be acknowledged that for a rim to be able to take our kind of loads with low spoke counts, the rim must be strong. That equates to rim weight increase, that is focussed more towards the outer edge of the wheel. If you ride flats, then there won't be much of an issue, but if you climb, and I don't do a whole lot of that either, then it is noticeable. My A23 wheelset was noticeable different(easier if you wish) to my older Ultegra CXP30 combo with 28/28 spokes.

Weatherby

No being able to fix a spoke disqualifies someone from being a real cyclist, black ziptie or not.

Low spoke count is purely about aerodynamics, the weight of a dozen extra spokes has no measurable impact on time irrespective of how hilly the route.

I favor robustness because I am lazy. I want my stuff to work and work for a long time.

chaadster

Thanks for the reply. I asked about rim weight because you said the A23s were lighter at the rim, and I was wondering how you figured that out, especially given that Ultegra/A23 builds usually weigh in heftier than RS10s (Shimano list RS10s at 1892gm and most places list Ultegra/A23 builds in the 1950gm range with 32x14g spokes), but I understand now that this is a theory of your own.

I guess the problem with that theory is that, in addition to the slightly lower weight RS10s, there are plenty low spoke count wheels (LSC) that are significantly lighter than the Ultegra/A23 build, including the ones in this thread, which are a mere 1372gm, so apparently, rim weight increases are not necessary for LSC builds.

I'm not an engineer, so I'm not sure of the design factors particularly, but I imagine that, at some number of hole drillings, the spoke bed falls apart, right? There is only so much space. Perhaps a factor in the rim weight issue is that fewer drillings compromise the spoke bed less, and a lighter spoke bed can be designed for LSC, not heavier to support extra drillings which are also certainly stress risers as the spokes go through their load cycle.

Speaking of nipples, the AC nipples on the Argent are a patented design with an extended threaded section for use with a longer spoke and which extends beyond the flange which allows the spoke to be loaded in compression rather than tension.

Combined with the three spoke grouping, wide spokes, and hub design which allows perfectly balanced spoke tension on the rear (i.e. DS and NDS), you've got a system that delivers what AC says is the "strongest, stiffest, lightest rear wheel" in their line, which includes their 28h 3-cross Victory road, and perhaps their 32h 3-cross Terrain MTB, although it's not clear from the statement if they're distinguishing between their road and MTB lines.

It's probably true that a broken spoke would throw the whole system out of whack and render the [rear] wheel unrideable, but spoke breakage in high quality, modern wheels would seem to be a pretty rare occurrence. Forged, aero profile spokes are stronger than straight gauge, and J bend spokes tend to suffer more breakage due to generally lower tensions than what folks like to call "proprietary straight pull" setups.

So I guess my point is that there's a lot of old-timer, non-scientific, unsubstantiated beliefs around wheel construction, and very few people outside of the industry are prepared to get a grip on the design and engineering aspects of wheel construction, even though some of the principles, such as the importance of spoke tension balance, were being applied in automotive wheels back in the early 20th century, such as with the General Rim Company's wire wheel introduced in 1915.

Black wallnut 

Chaad, to me balanced tension sounds like marketing hype. If they work for you and others great. Where I am coming from is I have like many others, had problems with wheels short of what I now use. OEM wheels by several manufactures have proven to not be durable for me. What I insist on now are wheels that when properly built stay tensioned over their life which is measure by when the brake track wears out. For most clydes miles and time trumps all other considerations especially when a 32h or 36h wheelset can be had for I'm thinking less money than you spent on your wheels. We get that you like nice things. Your wheelset looks good. If it makes you happy great. To most of us that advocate high spoke count wheels miles and time is the best measurement of wheel strength.

chaadster

Yes, thanks BlackWallnut, I get that, and have no problem with that viewpoint. I don't know what the lifespan in terms of braketrack wear will be, and it varies by rider and conditions, so if that's the measure, that's the measure, and short of getting there, it's impossible to calculate.

My problem is with those that think they know all they need to know by spoke count, which, as I've said before, tells them nothing, really, yet they think it's everything.

As for whether spoke tension is market hype, I'd encourage you to check out the reference to GRC wheels. They understood the principle, and in 1915 brought it to market. I'm not sure you could have hype for 100 years, but if that's what you believe, that's what you believe.

EDIT: Here's a pic of a 1927 Ford Model A wheel. Notice the lacing pattern and asymmetrical hub design...look familiar? It should, because it's the same lacing and design on the Argent rear hub.

longbeachgary

Dude, clean that bike.

CommuteCommando

My latest bike came with RS-10's. I've been right at 210 since I got it in Sept. Last month it popped a spoke on the rear at about 2500 mi. Thinking of an upgrade, but they're ok. If it happens again I will.