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  1. #1
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    Wheel-set dilemma, spokes vs rims!!!

    OK, I'm a super-clydesdale at 6'5'' and 300lbs and I'm looking for new wheels for my commuter.

    I have my eyes on 2 sets.

    #1 as Mavic's Open Pros with 36 spokes with Formula's Hubs
    #2 is Velocity A23 with only 32 spokes with White Industry's hubs

    The #2 as some really nice hubs and the price is quite good, but it's still a lot more expensive than #1 .

    But the biggest question is, does the wider rim of the A23 compensate for the less spokes?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Senior Member Black wallnut's Avatar
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    Wheel selection depends on you and your use conditions. High mileage of rough roads might need more spokes. How much do you ride and under what conditions? A commute can be a wide range of distances and surfaces. Quality of build can compensate for less spokes not sure about rim width.


    Mark

  3. #3
    Just Plain Slow PhotoJoe's Avatar
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    If the budget will support it, I'd go with #2 . They're supposed to be really nice wheels. There were "internet stories" about Open Pro's cracking, but I have no personal experience.
    If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving is not the sport for you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luskar View Post
    OK, I'm a super-clydesdale at 6'5'' and 300lbs and I'm looking for new wheels for my commuter.

    I have my eyes on 2 sets.

    #1 as Mavic's Open Pros with 36 spokes with Formula's Hubs
    #2 is Velocity A23 with only 32 spokes with White Industry's hubs
    Neither is appropriate for heavier riders due to the shallow 19mm depth and light weight. With beam stiffness proportional to depth cubed a 19mm rim is less than 1/3 as stiff as a 30mm rim and correspondingly easier to bend. Limited material means limited strength. The slightly lighter Reflex clinchers which preceded the Open Pro weren't suitable for riders much over 160 pounds (I bent my rear under 170 pounds, and the front didn't last a year after I grew to Clydestale size) and a little extra material at the same over all dimensions doesn't nearly double that.

    I'd pick your favorite commodity rim over 25mm deep with 32 or 36 holes and lace it to Shimano (or Campagnolo if you roll that way) cup and cone hubs with double butted spokes. In no particular order the Kinlin XC279 28mm deep x 23mm wide, Velocity Deep V 30mm x 19mm or Chukker 32x24mm, and DT RR585 30x19mm are options. The XC279 and Chukker are wide rims as is the current fashion, Deep V inexpensive with rainbow color options including retro-reflective, and RR585 very well built. Unlike many boutique offerings Shimano (and Campagnolo) hubs have coined spoke holes so the metal grains are oriented for good strength in the area, their cup-and-cone bearings last almost indefinitely given periodic lubrication and adjustment, and no special tools are needed to replace balls and cones when they do get a little crunchy. Butted spokes are stretchier in the middle so the rim can take harder hits before it deflects enough to make the spokes slack at which point the rim can move off-center and collapse as tension returns.

    If you really want a shallower rim for a retro look use something like the Velocity Dyad or Mavic A319 with an extra 100g of metal compared to an A23 or Open Pro. They're made specifically for the touring and tandem markets where the manufacturers expect rider(s) + bike to total more than 180 pounds.

    I'd build it myself (while much more time consuming, wheel building is about as technically challenging as adjusting front derailleurs) or delegate to a reputable one-person shop. You're much more likely to have problems with the wheels going out of true than a lighter rider if the machines (or people) that build them don't make them tight enough and will break spokes if they're not stress relieved.
    Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 05-26-14 at 02:08 PM.

  5. #5
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
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    number 2 and don't look back

  6. #6
    Senior Member CACycling's Avatar
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    I've got the A23s on 32H Ultegra hubs. One issue with the A23s, they are tough to mount tires on. I used the Veloplugs instead of rim tape and that definitely helped.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    I love my PW hubs...

    Pricey, amazing smooth, nearly silent when coasting.

    I'm running 48 spoke disc with chukker rims and 38 marathons. I kept breaking spokes, and hate walking. Our rides are out and back, way out. Tired of being let down by equipment, worrying about if it will get me home.

    With these "wheels for the apocalypse", there is no thought that I'll break them or they'll let me down.

    Heavy, uh, yep...
    Expensive, uh, yep...
    But will always get me home.

  8. #8
    Senior Member jaxgtr's Avatar
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    This was my commuter on and off for some time. I have some Velocity Deep V's 36 spoke that I had built when I weighed in at 340-ish?? and they have held true for 5 years. I really like the Deep V's for their stiffness and bomb-proofness that I have put them through over the years. They are a bit heavy, but, I run them with 25's and on occasions, 28's and would highly recommend them as a rim choice to look into. I had them laced up to some Shimano LX hubs. I also highly recommend the velo plugs if you go with Velocity wheels. I even used them on a Mavic wheel, but ensure you get the correct size plug.

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    you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bikemig's Avatar
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    Drew Eckhardt pretty much nailed it as to why neither of the OP's wheel choices were good ones. New wheels for a commuter? There are lots of choices out there but for handbuilt wheels I've been pretty happy with handbuilt Quality wheels which any bike shop can get for you or you can buy online. The mavic a319 or a719 or both good choices for commuting for the OP. This, for example, is a sturdy wheel at a reasonable price: Quality Wheels Pavement Series 5 Rear Wheel 700c 36h Shimano LX / Mavic A319 / DT Champion All Silver in Tree Fort Bikes Wheels (cat113)

    There are plenty of other good rims and hub combos out there but get something designed for the job.

  10. #10
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    I reckon I'm fairly qualified to offer an opinion here after just recently retiring a set of 32/32 A23 rims in favour of Open Pros and also am your height and was your weight when I got the A23s. Disclaimer: The only reason that I went for the OPs was that they could replace the A23s without needing new spokes. My rear A23 cracked in 5 separate locations around the rim. Some pics can be found here New rims DT 440s/Mavic Open Pros/Velocity A23s. The jury is still out on the OPs as I've only just started running them, but I am aware of the cracking internet stories referred to above also.

    First thing is as pointed out, you won't get any increased strength from the A23's wider profile. I had my A23s for approx 3 1/2 years and they were my daily and race wheelset. The only real benefit to the wider rim that I could FEEL was in hard cornering while racing on our club crit circuit where the wider profile made the handling better. Other than that, I don't believe that there will be a big benefit to the wider rims at your weight. At your weight, you will be pretty much maxing out the pressure which reduces the "run lower pressure" benefit that some people gain from the wider rims.

    I believe the A23 rim is not a good choice for a heavy rider as an everyday wheelset that will cop a lot of abuse. I think I was pushing the limits of my wheels, and I have had a few big hits from pot holes with them. While they stayed true, this may have lead to the early demise of the wheels. They are a light rim and would build into a good climbing wheelset. I know they span up faster than my previous Mavic CXP30 wheelset and were better for climbing.

    For a commuter wheelset I would really consider going for a cheaper but still well built hub. Something like the Shimano 105 hubs would be great for this application. Still good enough to be nice and smooth, but cheap enough to be replaceable and are easily services with a set of cone spanners that you can find in most sub $50 bike tool kits.

    For the rim, I would consider going for higher profile aluminium and be looking at either the Kinlin XC279 for the wider profile, or the Velocity Deep V. One of those should last you a long time. The Deep Vs have a well known reputation although the Kinlins are a newer kid on the block. I have actually used the Kinlin rim in my own nicer road/race wheelset that has Dura Ace hubs and CXRay spokes in 28/32.

    Velomine is one example that has Deep V/105 wheelsets for pretty cheap. Going for 36 spokes over 32 spokes may increase the service life of the wheelset if you're going to be doing a lot of miles on the wheels.

  11. #11
    The Rabbi seely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
    Drew Eckhardt pretty much nailed it as to why neither of the OP's wheel choices were good ones. New wheels for a commuter? There are lots of choices out there but for handbuilt wheels I've been pretty happy with handbuilt Quality wheels which any bike shop can get for you or you can buy online. The mavic a319 or a719 or both good choices for commuting for the OP. This, for example, is a sturdy wheel at a reasonable price: Quality Wheels Pavement Series 5 Rear Wheel 700c 36h Shimano LX / Mavic A319 / DT Champion All Silver in Tree Fort Bikes Wheels (cat113)

    There are plenty of other good rims and hub combos out there but get something designed for the job.
    Not dissing Q at all, but their lower end wheels (like the Pavement Series, if I understand their hierarchy correctly) are machine built, and then checked over and tweaked by a technician. Good wheels, but not truly hand built (hence the previous label of 'Handspun') and likely not quite to the tolerances I adhere myself to as a wheel builder. I do believe their custom and high end wheelsets are built by a master wheel builder.
    commuter turned bike mechanic turned commuter (also a Velocity USA employee, but this is my personal account)

  12. #12
    Senior Member bikemig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seely View Post
    Not dissing Q at all, but their lower end wheels (like the Pavement Series, if I understand their hierarchy correctly) are machine built, and then checked over and tweaked by a technician. Good wheels, but not truly hand built (hence the previous label of 'Handspun') and likely not quite to the tolerances I adhere myself to as a wheel builder. I do believe their custom and high end wheelsets are built by a master wheel builder.
    My understanding is that the better Quality wheels are handbuilt; when you look at their line up, it's pretty clear which of their wheels are (entirely) machine built and which are not.

    Still you could be right and these wheels could be simply tensioned by a human being after being machine built. That's not a bad way to build wheels and the prices are reasonable.

    I own two pairs of quality handspun wheels. They were properly tensioned and have maintained their true through a lot of hard riding. Plus the prices are pretty reasonable for what you are getting. There is a also a large selection of wheels to pick from which the OP can pick up from a wide variety of sources.

  13. #13
    Senior Member robert schlatte's Avatar
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    I bought a Quality Dyad 36 hole wheel for my loaded tourer and am very happy with it. My understanding as well is that it was machine built but tensioned by a human. When I received it, it was perfectly true and I went around it with a tensionmeter and the spokes were acceptably even tensioned. As such I didn't touch it and it has given me many trouble free miles and is as true as the day I received it.

  14. #14
    Senior Member chriskmurray's Avatar
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    It is a commuter bike so why try to go for race oriented rims? I would suggest 36 hole Velocity Dyads, it is still reasonably light and much stronger than both of the rims you listed. The A23 is a great and strong rim but a little on the racier side. I personally have owned two sets and have even done a fair bit of mountain biking on them without issue at 210 lbs before gear.

    White Industries hubs are beautiful and they are a great company worth supporting, I have a set of T11's on my road bike and love them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
    Neither is appropriate for heavier riders due to the shallow 19mm depth and light weight...
    Quote Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
    I reckon I'm fairly qualified to offer an opinion here after just recently retiring a set of 32/32 A23 rims...
    Thanks guys! Exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

    The Dyad was already on my list, for their retro look and tandem strength. I'll check out the others.

    Somebody around here have a used pair of H plus Son Archetype for sell. 25x23mm seem not to bad, but they only weight 470g.

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    Another option - a Vuelta Corsa HD wheelset. I've put them on two bikes and haven't had a problem with them in over three years of riding with 700 x 32 tires. They're inexpensive (compared to other wheelsets), and have worked great when I've loaded them with my 200lbs carcass + cargo. On sale now at Nashbar, but still a great deal:

    Vuelta Corsa HD Road Wheelset - Wheels & Wheelsets
    Are we having fun yet?

  17. #17
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriskmurray View Post
    It is a commuter bike so why try to go for race oriented rims? I would suggest 36 hole Velocity Dyads, it is still reasonably light and much stronger than both of the rims you listed. The A23 is a great and strong rim but a little on the racier side. I personally have owned two sets and have even done a fair bit of mountain biking on them without issue at 210 lbs before gear.

    White Industries hubs are beautiful and they are a great company worth supporting, I have a set of T11's on my road bike and love them.
    Open Pro BOX rims are very very very far from race wheels. A23s aren't either, they were designed with more comfort in mind. Not aero or light weight.

  18. #18
    Senior Member chriskmurray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsigone View Post
    Open Pro BOX rims are very very very far from race wheels. A23s aren't either, they were designed with more comfort in mind. Not aero or light weight.
    Not really sure where you are getting your info. I am pretty sure the Open Pro is the lightest rim Mavic offers and this is copy and pasted from the Velocity website on the A23

    "With a wider footprint, the A23 allows for a more aerodynamic rim/tire combination when paired with a 23c tire. The tire profile mimics the characteristics of a tubular, gaining increased control and lower rolling resistance without the inconvenience of tubular glue or the dangers of irreparable roadside mechanicals. A tubeless ready design makes this rim ideal for road and cyclocross applications."

  19. #19
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chriskmurray View Post
    Not really sure where you are getting your info.
    Info comes from me being a wheelset wh0r and have a friend who is more of a wheel addict than I am. His current rotation is A23s on Ck hubs, A23s on 11spd DT Swiss hubs, 14' Zipp 303 clichers (wider rims), zipp 303 tubulars for crit racing and Spinergy Carbon Xaero PBO

    Box profile = strong as F = extra aero drag at speed or winds....you won't see this on racey bike, maybe a heavy training wheel in off season but won't see it on any bike in a crit race. Plus them nipple eyelets are an eye sore to a thin designed alum extrusion. Without the eyelet. mavic rims would crack.
    Open Pro | Mavic - United States

    small aero profile = very from racey...more are leaning to Pacenti Sl23 rims for deeper aero profile 19mm vs 26mm. This also adds extra stiffness in the rim design. The stiffness can take away from the wider rim tire "ride". Where as the A23 smaller aero profile flexes a bit and adds to the comfort of the ride. Sl23's are the best of both worlds IMO

    Velocity Wheels

    Pacenti SL23 Rim : Fairwheel Bikes, Cycling Boutique

    Both versions are tubeless which ARE freaking awesome if you got that route. But tires are limited and expensive $75+ each. BUT you won't be spending money in tubes or patches. I rode Stan Alpha 400s in tubeless w/ 25c tires from last July to January with ZERO flat, including the 30mile mt dirt section of the Rapha Gents race I did in Nov & Roughly 3000miles and 2 sets of tires.

    Yes the rims are narrower then A23s. Before I got my Stans, I've also test rode my buddies A23s (tubed) on CK hubs and they road like my tubular 50mm carbons. VERY plush ride, Still fairly stiff not as noodles as my Spinergy Xaero PBO under club sprint points. But very smooth ride without the aero drag of them PBO spoke diameters at speed (27-35mph)

  20. #20
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    I've got Deep Vs with Chris King R45 hubs. I've been happy.

  21. #21
    Senior Member chriskmurray's Avatar
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    I am head wheel builder for a bicycle manufacturer and also build custom wheels on the side so I think I can qualify as a wheel addict as well. I just have a much different approach to building a set of commuter wheels than you it seems.

    Maybe I should have said "It is a commuter, why go for a set of very light rims" rather than race oriented. The Open Pro is still a sub 400 gram rim, not what I would consider the ideal rim for a set of commuter wheels for a 300lb rider.

    I personally own a couple sets of A23's and LOVE them but the OP mentioned he is specifically looking for commuter wheels, not light weight fast group ride/race/commuter wheels. He said he wants wheels for commuting and when getting from point A to point B is the main goal, you should make your equipment as reliable as possible and in the thousands of wheels I have built I have never had someone complain about an extra hundred or so grams in rim weight for their commuter but what I do get is lots of people that are beyond excited that their wheels have seen well over 10k miles and not needed any attention at all.

    Commuter wheels to me are wheels that should be good for 20,000 miles or more with nothing more than servicing the hubs and I see no reason to stay just on the edge of what will hold up for a commuter wheel.

  22. #22
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    Totally with Chris here. I don't mind a couple extra grams, but I want peace of mind!

    i want wheels that I can go to work, go for a ride after and be back home for diner. Don't be afraid of potholes and keep the whole thing as long as possible with only the regular bearing maintenance.

    Does 36h instead of 32h really make a big difference? 'Cause a lot of good deal around here come in 32h, but if I'm to invest in a good wheelset, I want to keep them a while.

  23. #23
    Senior Member chriskmurray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luskar View Post
    Totally with Chris here. I don't mind a couple extra grams, but I want peace of mind!

    i want wheels that I can go to work, go for a ride after and be back home for diner. Don't be afraid of potholes and keep the whole thing as long as possible with only the regular bearing maintenance.

    Does 36h instead of 32h really make a big difference? 'Cause a lot of good deal around here come in 32h, but if I'm to invest in a good wheelset, I want to keep them a while.
    Part of why you see a lot of good deals on 32 hole wheels is because 32 hole hubs are significantly more common than 36 hole. In my opinion, a 32 hole wheel that is built well and tied to a strong rim should be sufficient but the extra peace of mind that comes with 36 spokes over 32 is more than worth it for a commuter, especially as a heavier rider dealing with bad roads.

  24. #24
    Mad bike riding scientist cyccommute's Avatar
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    I continue to find the "have to have" criteria that people come up with for wheels for heavy duty use. Stating that the depth of rim has to be over 25mm is one of the sillier ones I've seen however. It ranks right up there with the declaration that a clyde rim has to be over 500g. The Velocity Synergy and the Mavic A719 are rims that are made for use on heavily loaded touring bicycles. I've used both and neither has a 25mm depth. They are both shallower than the A23, which I have also used. The Salsa Delgado is also a heavy duty rim that is shallower than 25mm. The Velocity Aerohead and Aeroheat are also shallower than 25mm. I have used or am currently using each of these rims. I've also built and used dozens of other wheels that were all shallower than 25mm without problems.

    The depth of the rim has little to do with the strength of the wheel other than making the spokes a bit shorter. The weight of the rim has little to do with the strength of the wheel as well. The number of spokes has some influence but the difference between a 32 and a 36 isn't great enough to be concerned about for your application, Luskar. If you were looking at a 28 or 20 spoke wheel vs a 32 or 36, I'd go with the higher spoke count but in this case, it really doesn't matter.

    I'd suggest going with the Whites over the Formulas. White Industry hubs are of far greater quality than the Formulas.
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  25. #25
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
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    tubeless on a commuter would be ideal. zero to less flats to deal with.

    A23 still get my vote.... or SL23s for extra wheel stiffness @ 32holes

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