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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Null66 View Post
    Nope and nope...


    Gluteus Maximus largest muscle.

    It takes a lot to gain enough muscle to seen on a scale. A very pleasant thought, but certainly not true.


    Riding a little ain't it...
    Gotcha. Learn something new everyday.

    Always wondered why my butt was so big.

  2. #27
    Senior Member ill.clyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RISKDR1 View Post
    1400 to 1800 caleries a day seems a bit light for someone riding a lot. Chances are you are losing muscle mass and lowering your metabolism. Also, the composition of your diet is important. If your diet is high in sugar or carbs you may be triggering a fat storage response.
    I had this thought too ... that seems like a very low caloric total for the day. Your body may be feeling like it's in starvation mode.

    There's a balance you have to find ... You can eat few calories and still gain weight (and no, it's not likely muscle mass -- it's a nice thought as someone pointed out -- but true weight gain by muscle mass involves resistance training, not just riding a bike).

  3. #28
    The Fat Guy In The Back Tundra_Man's Avatar
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    I calculate my cycling calories per mile to equal my body weight * .15. So in my case at 255 pounds I burn roughly 38 calories for every mile ridden. This would put a 20 mile ride for me at 765 calories.

    Can't remember where I originally came across this number, but I've used it for years. Obviously this formula doesn't take into account hills, wind, speed, etc, but I've found this to be a good average number. Over time I've concluded that for me it's pretty close to accurate. For a person of my size, I'd rather error on the low side than the high side. I've never been in danger of running too much of a calorie deficit.

    I know the "calories burned" readouts on the machines at the gym aren't anywhere close to reality. Of course these are on the same machines that tell me I've just biked 5 miles in 10 minutes.
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  4. #29
    Senior Member Null66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ill.clyde View Post
    I had this thought too ... that seems like a very low caloric total for the day. Your body may be feeling like it's in starvation mode.

    There's a balance you have to find ... You can eat few calories and still gain weight (and no, it's not likely muscle mass -- it's a nice thought as someone pointed out -- but true weight gain by muscle mass involves resistance training, not just riding a bike).
    The holy grail of weight lifting is gaining while cutting.
    Even augmented people don't add muscle with a calorie deficit. During a profoundly disciplined cut, body builders seek to minimize muscle loss.

    Riding a lot, you can gain muscle mass in your quads, but you're likely to loose more mass in your upper body unless you specifically strive not to.

    SO yes you can gain muscle, but you pretty much have to be in calorie surplus...

  5. #30
    Senior Member spdracr39's Avatar
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    re-arrange your eating to help your riding instead of adding calories. Drink lots of water even if your not riding this will probably solve your issue by itself. Ride more hills for muscle workout not just the flats.

  6. #31
    Senior Member ill.clyde's Avatar
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    Gearing and riding a SS won't really amount to any noteable difference in caloric burn.

    As for refueling on a bike ride, for me personally I eat a little something during a ride when I'm riding 50+ miles. Otherwise, my current strategy is to ride my bike, and when I get home I either have an 8 ounce glass of chocolate, 2% milk, or if I have it in the house (I'm currently out -- so I'm doing a bit of an experiment) I'll make a "shake" with 10 ounces of unsweetened almond milk + one scoop of whey powder.

    The "shake" was something I started over the winter, when I would lift at the gym and then follow that with time on the stationary bike. I found that doing so would reduce fatigue in my legs and muscle soreness from lifting.

    I was still doing that until last week, when I ran out of whey powder and I just haven't been to the store to buy more. So instead I started with the chocolate milk. Both are a nice dose of protein after a ride, which seems to help me greatly. The whey powder/almond milk is around 145 calories per serving. The chocolate milk is about double that.

    FWIW, I've lost 20 pounds since I started this back in late January.

  7. #32
    Senior Member ISPringle's Avatar
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    Would a solid food refuel be okay instead? My post gym work outs were always 1 1/2 cups of string beans and 1 can of low sodium tuna. I just don't like drinking calories, I know it doesn't really matter how calories are taken in, but I started dieting 5 years ago and this was the first thing that went, it's kind of never been able to go away.

  8. #33
    Senior Member ill.clyde's Avatar
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    of course ... I think any form of protein after an effort is a good thing. For me personally I know it helps with fatigue and soreness. YMMV of course.

    Like I said ... it's about finding a balance that works for you. What works for you may be different from what works for me.

  9. #34
    Senior Member ISPringle's Avatar
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    What would you recommend on rides in excess of 50, like 100 mile rides? My goal is to be century ready for July 12th, as there is one then I'd like to do. Another one two weeks later, and between those two dates I'd like to be riding at least one 100 mile ride a week purely for my own enjoyment. And the long term goal is to be doing two to four of these per week, as I have an entire semester to do nothing basically since all my classes are on Tuesdays and Thursdays this fall.

  10. #35
    Senior Member ill.clyde's Avatar
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    That's another case of YMMV, because there may be foods that don't agree with you while you're on the bike. You can always experiment on shorter rides, just decrease the portion. You're not trying to fuel yourself in this instance, you're just seeing what your body tolerates while riding.

    I've had success with Clif bars (either the small sized ones or half of a regular sized one) and with Clif's Shot Blox. The Blox are gummies though, and not everyone likes those. Bananas are great if you fear cramping (but staying properly hydrated will help that more). When I've done organized centuries I'll grab half a PB&J at a rest stop if I feel like I need it (usually in the last two thirds of the century). There are gels if you're so inclined, though I never really like those. I've heard good things about Honey Stinger's waffles but I've never tried them.

  11. #36
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    I quit eating my ride's back, and dropped 30 more pounds.

    Eat 500 calories less than your need. And ride!

    MFP is a great tool

  12. #37
    Senior Member Mithrandir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephtu View Post
    Those articles and calculators are simply wrong. There are people on this forum who have power meters which directly measure the amount of energy being put into the hub or crank, and most seem to say 30 to 40 calories per mile is a better estimate depending on how hard you are working.

    I think the most interesting thing my power meter tells me is that I "burn" more calories than those articles and calculators tell me I do. I can't explain it. Here's some examples from last week (PM calibrated before every ride!):

    Bike Ride Profile | NFBC - Saturday Morning Breakfast Cycle near Buffalo | Times and Records | Strava - 25.1 miles, 1,286 calories, 51 calories per mile.
    Bike Ride Profile | NFBC - Eastwood & CC near Erie County, NY, USA | Times and Records | Strava - 21.6 miles, 1,223 calories, 56 calories per mile.
    http://www.strava.com/activities/149970723 - 22.6 miles, 1,220 calories, 54 calories per mile.


    Strava's calorie numbers are based off of the power meter when it's there, because each calorie number is directly proportional to the kilojules expended, in a 1.115x ratio.


    Maybe I'm just extraordinarily powerful? I don't know.
    Last edited by Mithrandir; 06-12-14 at 09:33 AM.

  13. #38
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    If your body isn't getting enough calories it will store fat for later. If your getting too much same thing. Dropping significantly lower than your BMR plus activity by more than a couple hundred isn't good. I have to eat more and more often to lose weight because I have got so used to eating too little and only 3 times a day. Readjust what your eating as well. Don't over load on simple carbs moderate complex carbs they are still sugar. Increase your raw colorful fresh veggies avoid bleached flour, high fructose corn syrup, and regular sugar, eat smaller portions of lean meat. Using sugar substitutes isn't great either. I am telling you what I also have to do. I was trying to cut some fat for measurements and dropped calories and increased riding and I dropped 2.5 inches off the waist but only lost 4 lbs over 3 months. When I made my measurements I begin to eat normal again and took a week off of riding to do my physical fitness test. In ust 4 days of not riding and eating normal I dropped 3 lbs. I know my legs and arms took a little muscle which accounted for loss of inches with little weight loss. Tweaking your diet is more important than your riding. Keep riding by all means but watch and log everything you eat for a few days and check your calorie intake and amount burned.

    I am 5'4" and weigh 192 lbs currently. I have tried many diets and workout plans to get leaner. I can get to 175 before I bottom out. I have a large bone frame and very stocky I carry a lot more muscle than most people my height. I used to lift for years. I am carrying around some fat too. Once I get to 175 lbs my ab muscles start to to show slightly. I wish I could drop to 160 lbs but once I got to 168 lbs with no love handles and ab muscles showing well, but I could only stay there a few weeks before those ab muscles went back in hiding. If I could stay around 170 to 175 I would be happy. That puts me in 32" waist pants. Currently in 36" waist pants.
    Last edited by Shadow722; 06-12-14 at 09:39 AM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    I think the most interesting thing my power meter tells me is that I "burn" more calories than those articles and calculators tell me I do. I can't explain it. Here's some examples from last week (PM calibrated before every ride!):

    Strava's calorie numbers are based off of the power meter when it's there, because each calorie number is directly proportional to the kilojules expended, in a 1.115x ratio.

    Maybe I'm just extraordinarily powerful? I don't know.
    Don't know either. Do the Strava numbers match up with the total reported on the Garmin itself, on the device & Garmin's site? I noticed on most of your Strava segments it doesn't have the lightning bolt next to the power number, which I thought is supposed to be there if reading from power meter. Maybe some sort of weird importing error and then it's falling back on Strava's rather inaccurate power guesses?

    I also noticed average heart rate 45 bpm for one of the rides, is that really accurate?? That's kind of extraordinary, practically unbelievable for me, when not a resting heart rate. The other ride looked more normal, maybe your strap was acting up.
    Last edited by stephtu; 06-12-14 at 10:15 AM.

  15. #40
    Senior Member Mithrandir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephtu View Post
    Don't know either. Do the Strava numbers match up with the total reported on the Garmin itself, on the device & Garmin's site? I noticed on some of your Strava segments it doesn't have the lightning bolt next to the power number, which I thought is supposed to be there if reading from power meter. Maybe some sort of weird importing error and then it's falling back on Strava's rather inaccurate power guesses?

    It seems to be within 50-100 calories of the Garmin output each time. I only started using the PM back in November of last year, and only one of my bikes has it. Many of my segments best speeds were set before I got the PM so that would be why there's no icon. Also, my last 2 rides I didn't have the PM because I broke 2 spokes and the wheel was in the shop.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISPringle View Post
    That's the thing, I can't think of anything. I've been eating quinoa this week instead of bread, but I have balanced out the calories and there is less salt in that. Every other aspect of my diet has stayed the same, and this is not the first time I've eaten the quinoa instead of bread, so I can't think of any sodium increase. Which is why I was wondering/hoping that maybe an increase in exercise has somehow made my body hold onto the water, after all I sweat a lot! I don't know how the pros calculate sweat loss in an hour, but in an hour on a stationary bike my clothing plus the towel under the bike gained just under 2 pounds in weight, meaning I sweat nearly 2L/hour.

    My other thought was maybe my body is holding onto more carbs than it normally does, which would be stored in the muscles, and result in more water being held onto. I hope that's what it is.

    Don't know about the calories from cycling. I only know that my two bike apps (Strava and MapMyRide) both say I am expending 1100 calories per ride, which is 20.4 miles, at a 14 mph pace with 4000 feet of gain. My calorie tracking app says that it's 1000 calories, and it tells me I can eat up to 400 calories a day more because of this (it's programmed not to let me eat less than the needed for 2 pounds a week). The few online calculators I consulted all also suggested the same rough calorie thing, but like you said it doesn't matter because either way the addition of 400 calories is negated by the riding regardless.

    My days have not changed beside the cycling, and the sleeping much earlier. I have a fairly active job which involves lots of walking and pulling 200 to 1200 pounds.

    I have noticed that I am absolutely starving now that I am riding, but it hasn't made me eat more, except that I have upped my serving size by roughly 400 calories over the course of lunch and dinner. Is it odd that my appetite has gone from not really existent (I often forget to eat meals, and am only reminded because my phone tells me) to ravenous?
    You erred in your calculated quantity of sweat per hour.

    1 liter of water is equivalent to 1 kg of mass hence, 2.204622622 pounds. This is why it requires precisely 3.785228328 liters of water to yield 1 gallon of water (8.345 pounds at sea level):

    3.785228328 liters * 2.204622622 pounds per liter = 8.345 pounds (the weight of a gallon of water at sea level)

    Since you sweated out slightly less than 2 pounds of water, you actually sweated less than 1 liter per hour (2 pounds of water is only 0.90718474 liters), so you’re not sweating nearly as profusely as you had calculated though you’d be plenty sweaty even at this far lesser quantity of sweat.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    It seems to be within 50-100 calories of the Garmin output each time. I only started using the PM back in November of last year, and only one of my bikes has it. Many of my segments best speeds were set before I got the PM so that would be why there's no icon. Also, my last 2 rides I didn't have the PM because I broke 2 spokes and the wheel was in the shop.
    I see. From doing a bit of internet searching I see that people are doing things like testing their power meter readings by hanging known weights off of a pedal and seeing if the displayed torque values match up with expected. (although you may zero the PM before every ride, the response to torque might be off).
    Powertap Garmin calibration check
    I suppose you could look into that, if everything matches up then I guess you are just expending more than other people typically reporting?

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISPringle View Post
    And yes, every article and calculator I have found says that 20 miles at a 14mph pace burns roughly 1000 to 1200 calories.
    Last Saturday I did a 72 mile ride with 4,500' of climbing. Average was just shy of 14 mph. Seriously doubt I burned 4,300 calories.
    "I've wanted you to succeed, but watching you find excuse after excuse after excuse and then laugh it off as the loveable, quirky, chubby guy is getting old."--Ill.Clyde

  19. #44
    Senior Member Black wallnut's Avatar
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    OP, what are you using to track calories? What oatmeal are you eating and how are you preparing it? Buy a scale and weigh your food, really they can be had for less than $10 at a discount merchant or dept store.linky. Why are you using egg beaters? Where is your fat? Your diet seems to be first if you are eating the calories you say not enough considering your age and activity and too carb dependent. How much water are you drinking?

    I think you cycling goals are aggressive too much too soon. The jumps are too big. If you want to do as much, basically double what you are doing now and stay injury free you will need to eat more. To lose weight you need a calorie deficit daily. Eating a balanced diet with plenty of water will help. Exercise will help, all of the above is very individual dependent. Not all diets work for everyone. You are 22 and you say you have been on a diet for 5 years does this mean you have not grown any since you were 17? Not trying to offend here but I find that very doubtful. Are you talking to a MD, or equivalent? Do you have some underlying medical problems you're not sharing with us? It is possible to be both over weight and healthy. Studies have shown a little extra weight increases lifespan. Cycling increases health whether it helps with weight loss or not. Do it because it is fun, enjoy the health benefits.

    Your calorie burn estimate as others have said is highly inflated. 20 miles at 14 mph is not much, considering your age and weight. Add a single speed and 4000' elevation gain things may change a bit. 200' per mile average is pretty hilly. Are you doing this on a ss? How are your knees?


    Mark

  20. #45
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    All I know is what worked for me. I cut back on what I ate every day for weeks until I started loosing weight consistently. Then I added food back until I stopped loosing weight. The result is a normal calorie intake for my lifestyle and metabolism is 1800 calories per day. I'm 6'3 and 225 lbs now and that number is well below anything you'll find online for the recommended/approximate calorie intake for a person my size.

    I cut my calorie intake to around 1600 calories per day and starting running. I got up to 6-7 miles per day on a treadmill, averaging around 6.8 mph. I took a multi-vitamin and ate the same meals everyday for months to insure I wasn't cheating. At first it was suck, piled on suck. Your body will think it's starving, but after about 3 days it will start releasing food stored as fat. That is fat's job. Food substitute while intake is limited. Your skin will feel greasy and you'll probably smell funny. After a week I didn't feel hungry at all because my body was using fat to make up the calorie difference.

    I lost 2-3 lbs per week dropping from 265/270 down to 225 in roughly 16 weeks. Then I started adding food back in until I stopped loosing and balancing food/exercise to cut down on 1-1/2 hours of exercise per day 7 days/week. The whole ordeal start to finish was around 20 weeks. Now I exercise for health and fitness and realize I can't eat as much as other people even though I'm bigger. If I can't exercise, I can't eat as much.

    You don't need on-line calculators. 1 lb of fat is approximately 3,600 calories. If your 7 day running average weight goes down 1 lb, you've either eaten 3,600 calories less than your metabolism burns, exercised 3,600 calories off, or a combination of the two. The key is to find your personal metabolic rate, carefully measure caloric intake, and increase exercise/decrease calories to hit your goals without being unhealthy about it.

    2-3 lbs/week isn't a stretch, but isn't fun either.

  21. #46
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    My rule of thumb - 1 hour of hard riding (heartrate high, sweating hard, legs screaming) is about 600 cal.
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  22. #47
    Senior Member IBOHUNT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISPringle View Post
    That's the thing, I can't think of anything. I've been eating quinoa this week instead of bread, but I have balanced out the calories and there is less salt in that. Every other aspect of my diet has stayed the same, and this is not the first time I've eaten the quinoa instead of bread, so I can't think of any sodium increase. Which is why I was wondering/hoping that maybe an increase in exercise has somehow made my body hold onto the water, after all I sweat a lot! I don't know how the pros calculate sweat loss in an hour, but in an hour on a stationary bike my clothing plus the towel under the bike gained just under 2 pounds in weight, meaning I sweat nearly 2L/hour.

    My other thought was maybe my body is holding onto more carbs than it normally does, which would be stored in the muscles, and result in more water being held onto. I hope that's what it is.

    Don't know about the calories from cycling. I only know that my two bike apps (Strava and MapMyRide) both say I am expending 1100 calories per ride, which is 20.4 miles, at a 14 mph pace with 4000 feet of gain. My calorie tracking app says that it's 1000 calories, and it tells me I can eat up to 400 calories a day more because of this (it's programmed not to let me eat less than the needed for 2 pounds a week). The few online calculators I consulted all also suggested the same rough calorie thing, but like you said it doesn't matter because either way the addition of 400 calories is negated by the riding regardless.

    My days have not changed beside the cycling, and the sleeping much earlier. I have a fairly active job which involves lots of walking and pulling 200 to 1200 pounds.

    I have noticed that I am absolutely starving now that I am riding, but it hasn't made me eat more, except that I have upped my serving size by roughly 400 calories over the course of lunch and dinner. Is it odd that my appetite has gone from not really existent (I often forget to eat meals, and am only reminded because my phone tells me) to ravenous?
    200'/mi is a heap of climbing and takes a heap of power

    I've done centuries at 100'/mi and only burnt ~4700 kJ at an avg power of 201W

    Sorry, but the math just isn't adding up for me.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithrandir View Post
    Strava's calorie numbers are based off of the power meter when it's there, because each calorie number is directly proportional to the kilojules expended, in a 1.115x ratio.
    Do they let you adjust that? I'd rather just do a 1:1 ratio. If I'm trying to deficit I would rather assume I'm more efficient than I am rather than less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow722 View Post
    If your body isn't getting enough calories it will store fat for later. If your getting too much same thing. Dropping significantly lower than your BMR plus activity by more than a couple hundred isn't good.
    I don't know if I truly believe the "starvation mode" idea. Because if it was true then people would never starve to death.

  24. #49
    got the climbing bug jsigone's Avatar
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    IMO....20 miles = 1100 cals at race pace....say 24-26mph average for them 40mins or so...meaning mostly cruising at 28-32mph and braking bit for the corners and Oh crap moments ....(drafting allowed LOL)

    Hills/mts are not in my equation cuz they often take more mental power then physical power to hold speed with them speeds with stick figure roadies.

  25. #50
    johnliu@earthlink.net jyl's Avatar
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    Here is an explanation of calorie burn (kilocalorie or "Calorie"), energy expended (kiloJoule or "kJ"), and how these are estimated for cycling.

    How Accurate is that Calorie Reading? | TrainingPeaks

    Read down to the end for an example. The author did a ride, and
    - from his power meter his estimated calorie burn was 2678 Calories (using approximation that applying 1 kJ to the pedals burns 1 Calorie of stored body energy)
    - from his heart rate his estimated burn was 1938 Calories
    - from time and distance his estimated burn was 3648 Calories

    The power meter-derived estimate is most accurate, the heart rate-derived estimate is less so, and the time and distance-derived estimate is not accurate at all.

    I consulted a standard bike power calculator. To ride 20 mph in the drops (road bike, flat ground, no wind, no drafting, my size and weight) requires about 175 watts. Riding 20 mph like that for a solid hour is, for me, very hard work. Doing the math, 175 watts for 1 hour is 630 kJ generated or 630 Calories burned. That is consistent with my rule of thumb stated above, which is

    "My rule of thumb - 1 hour of hard riding (heartrate high, sweating hard, legs screaming) is about 600 cal."

    (By the way, this is one reason I don't have a power meter - I don't want to be depressed at how little power output I can actually sustain.)

    So, for the OP, I think you should be skeptical about if you are actually burning 1100 Calories on the ride you described. It might be right, but it might also be way overstated.
    Last edited by jyl; 06-12-14 at 03:06 PM.
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