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-   -   Out riding a bad diet? (http://www.bikeforums.net/clydesdales-athenas-200-lb-91-kg/953544-out-riding-bad-diet.html)

bbeasley 06-13-14 06:47 AM

Out riding a bad diet?
 
I often post "you can't out ride a bad diet" but there's a bit more to the story. Maybe I should change it to "Most of us can't out ride a bad diet".

Quoted from April 2014 Road magazine, a cycling mag. Author is Scott Saifer M.S.

"Researchers found that people who consistently and appropriately exercise a half hour per day can generally avoid diabetes, heart disease and other illnesses that come with being sedentary. These people also maintain strength, balance and bone mass. Though they remain reasonably healthy, subjects who exercised around one half hour per day continued to gain weight.

The research further indicated that on average, with or without dieting, people who exercised an hour per day got the health benefits of exercise and maintained weight rather than gaining or losing over the long term.

With or without dieting, only people who consistently exercise 90 minutes or more per day-- or the weekly equivalent with longer and shorter days actually lose weight and become lean in the long term. "

Bold font added by me.

90 min/day = 10.5 hours/week. I ride ~8 hours/week, the only way I can do this is I use my bike for transportation. I haven't driven my car in over a month. So for me I can't out ride a bad diet but I'm trusting the right mix of riding and diet will get me where I want to be

I'm 5'8" and 196. I happen to fit the BMI mold. I'm currently Obese by 6 lbs and 28 lbs from Normal.

Where do you fit in? Does the above ring true for you?

WrightVanCleve 06-13-14 07:59 AM

Try a diet that includes a Wendy's Double Baconator with extra cheese, large fry, large coke, every day. You'll also need to include in the weekly diet fired chicken, plenty of Little Debbie snack cakes, more sugary stuff, more fired foods, other fast foods, a stop at Golden Corral or your local buffet equivalent at least once a week with several full plates every visit, and very little fruit or vegetables with mostly soda pop to drink with little water.

While this may seem extreme when you read it, it isn't uncommon for some of us to have such a diet. This is over a weekly period. I would not be surprised if quite a few of us had a similar diet if you write what you eat for a week, and normally, not what you are eating because you are paying attention.

I had a diet similar to above, minus the soda. I don't like soda that much and my back hurts from all the acid if I didn't drink water and I just prefer water anyway. The rest is pretty accurate to what I would eat, some variation in stuff but it is a pretty good representation of what I would consume over a week.

You're not going to out ride this diet. I can guarantee it.

BIGDCYCLES 06-13-14 08:03 AM

Hmmm, I usually average an hour a day. I am losing fat but gaining lots of muscle. Getting more serious and slowly regulating the diet back to 1200 calories per day so we shall see. Would love to hit 90 plus minutes a day and if I can get a bicycle stroller it would be entirely possible since I am a stay at home dad.

spdracr39 06-13-14 08:07 AM

The diets may change but the rules do not. More calories burned than calories eaten will equal weight loss over long term. A bad diet in the proper calorie range may make short term weight loss stagnate due to water retention but eventually the weight will go down. Exercise only increases the lean mass percentage which in turn accelerates the weight loss because lean muscle burns more calories (even in a rest state) than fatty muscle. Even if you have the worst eating habits in the world if you can burn more calories than you eat you will lose weight over the long term. Just remember you can consume calories a lot faster than you can burn them so the real enemy here is time.

Tundra_Man 06-13-14 08:10 AM

Can it be done? Probably.

Would most of us have the ability to ride as much as necessary to do it? Probably not.

indyfabz 06-13-14 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrightVanCleve (Post 16847629)
Try a diet that includes a Wendy's Double Baconator with extra cheese, large fry, large coke, every day. You'll also need to include in the weekly diet fired chicken, plenty of Little Debbie snack cakes, more sugary stuff, more fired foods, other fast foods, a stop at Golden Corral or your local buffet equivalent at least once a week with several full plates every visit, and very little fruit or vegetables with mostly soda pop to drink with little water.

While this may seem extreme when you read it, it isn't uncommon for some of us to have such a diet. This is over a weekly period. I would not be surprised if quite a few of us had a similar diet if you write what you eat for a week, and normally, not what you are eating because you are paying attention.

Years ago I read "Fat Land: How Americans Became the Fattest People in the World." At one point the book provides statistics on how often people eat fast food like pizza and burgers. I cannot remember the exact numbers, but I remember being shocked at the number of people who eat such stuff at least once per/day. And there was a good number of people who did with greater frequency.

Jarrett2 06-13-14 08:15 AM

That is NOT true for me. I used to work out like a mad man and eat what I thought was semi healthy and saw no sustainable weight loss. I would eventually have some type of sports injury from over exercising.

This time around, I focused primarily on calories in versus exercise and I am have WAY more success than ever before.

WrightVanCleve 06-13-14 08:30 AM

Thought about this a bit, I need to ask how we are defining a bad diet?

Is it too many calories or just a really bad selection of foods that are high in bad types of fats? Avocado fat is good for you as it helps to lower your LDL cholesterol and raises your HDL cholesterol. Bacon fat is just bad for you.

In some ways, you can out ride a bad diet in the sense of just unhealthy choices, but still limiting the calories you eat, but if you are going to hog down every meal then you are not going to out ride that unless you are going to ride most of the day every day.

My first post in this thread, my diet was high in fat, all types, and high in calories and you are not going to out ride that diet and the fat is just bad for you over all.

It is easy to eat too many calories in a high fat diet since you have a lot of calories in a fairly small amount of food, but you can eat a portion of vegetables that is the same size as that burger yet eat less calories since there isn't any fat in there where that burger has many more calories from the fat.

So, how are we going to define bad diet for this discussion? I did not see it in the OP.

pdlamb 06-13-14 08:40 AM

I've seen a few references in the last year that basically say, "No, you can't." Supposedly the bad diet (lots of fried foods, sugar, yum!) shows up in the blood -- high LDL, triglycerides -- and insulin resistance, even though you might be able to keep the weight off. I have to admit, I can't get the weight off eating like that.

It would be nice if we could get some good solid research done, instead of doctors with an axe to grind and little training in the scientific method, statistics, and the like, finding like-minded corporate donors to fund "studies" that prove their own predispositions.

spdracr39 06-13-14 08:49 AM

That's why time is the real limiting factor. You can eat enough calories in five minutes that it would take you 10 hours to burn them off exercising. So in that you are limited in the amount of time you have in a day if you exceed the number of calories you can burn in the time frame you have available to exercise you will not be able to "out ride your diet". I think the real issue with people is that the exercise apps way overstate the amount of calories we are burning and people have a tendency to try to "use up" the calories they are allotted in a day so they are actually not burning as many as they think they are. Also, calories listed on products especially when eating out are understated because of the lack of consistency in serving sizes. In restaurants it is rare that the dish is made exactly like it was made for the nutrition guide and many times that is just an estimate anyway.

The best program is an individual one that requires long term commitment. Eat on a schedule with controlled measured portions and keep a log of your food and exercise. monitor your weight on the scale and compare it to your log each week not every day. If your weight goes down all is well if it doesn't then add exercise or cut calories by changing to a different food item or lowering portion size.

Oh and I define a bad diet as one that doesn't provide the nutrition required to enable you to exercise enough to burn calories effectively. The avoidance of high fats and sugars are not nearly as important in my eyes as they make them out to be except that they are higher in calories. Even salty food isn't a big deal as long as you drink enough fluids to keep it flushed out of your system. There are other health related issues that come into play when saying that so I am referring to an otherwise healthy person. I do have controlled diabetes but have no issues with blood pressure or cholestrol.

Null66 06-13-14 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdracr39 (Post 16847803)
That's why time is the real limiting factor. You can eat enough calories in five minutes that it would take you 10 hours to burn them off exercising. So in that you are limited in the amount of time you have in a day if you exceed the number of calories you can burn in the time frame you have available to exercise you will not be able to "out ride your diet". I think the real issue with people is that the exercise apps way overstate the amount of calories we are burning and people have a tendency to try to "use up" the calories they are allotted in a day so they are actually not burning as many as they think they are. Also, calories listed on products especially when eating out are understated because of the lack of consistency in serving sizes. In restaurants it is rare that the dish is made exactly like it was made for the nutrition guide and many times that is just an estimate anyway.

The best program is an individual one that requires long term commitment. Eat on a schedule with controlled measured portions and keep a log of your food and exercise. monitor your weight on the scale and compare it to your log each week not every day. If your weight goes down all is well if it doesn't then add exercise or cut calories by changing to a different food item or lowering portion size.

Oh and I define a bad diet as one that doesn't provide the nutrition required to enable you to exercise enough to burn calories effectively. The avoidance of high fats and sugars are not nearly as important in my eyes as they make them out to be except that they are higher in calories. Even salty food isn't a big deal as long as you drink enough fluids to keep it flushed out of your system. There are other health related issues that come into play when saying that so I am referring to an otherwise healthy person. I do have controlled diabetes but have no issues with blood pressure or cholestrol.

Simple carbs trigger insulin response. Signals tissue to take up blood sugar. With simple carbs, the activity of the insulin is longer then the sugar pulse, driving blood sugar down, causing hunger...

If you want to lose fat high insulin response foods are to be avoided. No way around that.


But I wonder WHY someone would want to eat the above diet...

Also study above cites a relationship or correlation. Those that exercise daily are not likely to eat crap.

Black wallnut 06-13-14 09:57 AM

Bacon fat is good for you! Fat is good for you. Fat does not trigger an insulin response.

I just crunched the numbers and I'm averaging 9.5 hours a week since 1-1. I am losing weight but I am also using MFP to track what I eat. Some old school diet czars would not approve of my diet choices. Eggs every day. No avoidance of fat. Meat, lean or otherwise fried or sauteed in olive oil. Olive oil on my salad. Ice cream on occasion. Pizza more often than ice cream and >3 beers a week. When I don't have my home grown chicken and have to (shudder) buy chicken I buy thighs, which are much higher in fat than breasts, they also have much more flavor IMHO. Granted when I buy burger I choose the leanest available. My home raised pork has a good(taste) fat profile meaning it is not exactly lean. When I run out of bacon and have to (shudder) buy it I buy it 3 pounds at a time and eat it before it spoils with only a little help from my kids.

All the above said I do somewhat agree that it is possible to over eat your exercise program and I have done it in the past, but never when I was exercising every day. My results have been when exercising every day even if just commuting 3.25 miles in the morning and 4.5+ miles in the pm with longer weekend rides that I have lost weight. In spite of extra snacking. At worst my weight loss was less than a pound a week. For me riding my bike motivated me to consider how what I was eating would influence my performance on the bike. How many miles I would need to ride to mitigate what I was eating. It was only when activity slowed late in the year that the weight started going back up.

My thinking on the dynamics of exercise vs weight loss is that if a sedentary person starts to exercise without, might need to repeat this qualifier as it is important, without eating more than if they were slowly gaining weight <1 lb. /week they would start to lose just by adding exercise. If they then exercised more also without eating more they will lose more weight. Sedentary people that start exercising should do so every day. Starting slow and building up to an hour a day. I'm not advocating HIIT 7 days a week rather exercise equal to walking an hour, not really ever getting out of breath or getting the heart rate above 75% of max. Once basic fitness is achieved then add HIIT a day or two a week or other hard efforts plus one or more longer strength building sessions such as a 3 hour ride. It is my thought that if a person is concentrating on exercising they soon bring their diet in line with their exercise goals. If they do this they no longer have a "bad" diet and lose or maintain weight.

Bad diet = one leading to fat storage, be it too many calories or wrong foods for the individual and/or one where necessary nutrients for good health are missing. This is different for everyone.

stephtu 06-13-14 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrightVanCleve (Post 16847729)
My first post in this thread, my diet was high in fat, all types, and high in calories and you are not going to out ride that diet and the fat is just bad for you over all.

I don't know that it's right to demonize fat that much. There are lots of articles about recent studies coming out that suggest that the link between fat consumption & heart disease as publicized in the past may not actually really be there. BBC News - Saturated fat heart disease 'myth'
Are Saturated Fats as Bad as We Have Been Led to Believe?
Saturated fats and heart disease link 'unproven' - National Library of Medicine - PubMed Health

Of course so much fat that the calorie level is way too high, & perhaps displacing what should be vegetable/fruit consumption & their nutrients/fiber, isn't a good idea either.

As of now I'm kind of swayed to the notion that the excess sugar consumption is a bigger problem than excess fat, and that fat in reasonable quantities shouldn't be feared.

WrightVanCleve 06-13-14 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephtu (Post 16848075)
I don't know that it's right to demonize fat that much. There are lots of articles about recent studies coming out that suggest that the link between fat consumption & heart disease as publicized in the past may not actually really be there. BBC News - Saturated fat heart disease 'myth'
Are Saturated Fats as Bad as We Have Been Led to Believe?
Saturated fats and heart disease link 'unproven' - National Library of Medicine - PubMed Health

Of course so much fat that the calorie level is way too high, & perhaps displacing what should be vegetable/fruit consumption & their nutrients/fiber, isn't a good idea either.

As of now I'm kind of swayed to the notion that the excess sugar consumption is a bigger problem than excess fat, and that fat in reasonable quantities shouldn't be feared.

My diet I listed wasn't reasonable in any way. It was high in fat, high in sugar, high in bad stuff all around. Fats contain more calories in a small package so it can be bad if you are trying to watch your calorie intake.

I would have to review those studies. As it is, I'm going to keep my animal fats to a min and include better vegetable fats like avocado. The target I have is cholesterol, I'm not too worried about heart disease specifically which can be caused by several factors besides a bad diet.

InOmaha 06-13-14 10:42 AM

I did 90 minutes 7 days a week for 20 weeks to loose 40 lbs. It's easy for most people to out eat exercise as I was only burning around 1,100 calories a day through exercise. But when you get up everyday of the week at 4:30 in the morning to exercise for 90 minutes, that bacon double cheeseburger doesn't look or taste as good. If you're dedicated enough to be up busting your butt every day of the week, you're less likely to be tempted by crap calories.

On top of it, heavy, greasy calorie rich foods made me feel like sick through my workout the next day.

You can out exercise a horrible diet but you need to be a full time at it like Olympic swimmers and pro cyclists. If you are one, you probably won't be eating horrible foods, but lots of calories.

Black wallnut 06-13-14 10:58 AM

#WrightVanCleve dietary cholesterol has little effect on serum cholesterol. Link to one of many articles worth a peek.

WrightVanCleve 06-13-14 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black wallnut (Post 16848223)
#WrightVanCleve dietary cholesterol has little effect on serum cholesterol. Link to one of many articles worth a peek.

Like all studies, I would have to see more and repeatable before I would be swayed. At this time, I'm going with what I've learned and had to study for nutrition and will keep with that. Articles could be reviews of studies, or not really a study at all but what someone thinks and finds a little bit of evidence to back up what they are saying and ignoring other evidence that is contrary. Results can also be adjusted to fit with an outcome that is desired so studies need to be reviewed before taking them to heart.

I would also need to see the complete study that doctor did, not just the excerpt from his book, and it is sunny out now, finally the rain is gone, and I need to get a ride in.

bbeasley 06-13-14 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tundra_Man (Post 16847669)
Can it be done? Probably.

Would most of us have the ability to ride as much as necessary to do it? Probably not.

I agree, so we're left with the calorie and exercise balancing act. I was hoping to see more on how much we exercise and not have this turn into yet another diet football. I know of a couple of forum members that I believe fit into the numbers in the article

lsberrios1 was riding over 90 min a day and is now a lean, mean, athletic riding machine.

TractorLegs is in the 60 min/day zone and is maintaining his lean weight.

Both the above guys also happen to fall into the BMI of "normal". I sure hope to add myself to that list one day. I expect Black wallnut to join this group with the miles/time he's putting in.

lsberrios1 06-13-14 12:35 PM

I have balanced out at 7-8 hours of cycling a week and my weight stays fairly healthy (165-168 @ 8% BF). My diet is nowhere near as strict as it was when I was losing weight but still have 2 "healthy" meals out of 3 in a day and very healthy snacks when I exercise. I cheat once a day if I exercised that day and I don't cheat if I didn't exercise. If I exercise 1.5 hours every day that means I get to eat a hearty meal e.g. pasta, hamburger etc. every day. However only once a day. The other two meals are usually a shake and a salad, bananas and yogurt for snacks. As soon as I see my weight go above 170# I tighten up and drop the weight within the week.

Appropriate thread to post this pic I found yesterday!
Before Year 2012: 216lbs
After Year 2014: 167lbs

https://scontent-a-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/...64435565_n.jpg

Black wallnut 06-13-14 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbeasley (Post 16848496)
I agree, so we're left with the calorie and exercise balancing act. I was hoping to see more on how much we exercise and not have this turn into yet another diet football. I know of a couple of forum members that I believe fit into the numbers in the article

lsberrios1 was riding over 90 min a day and is now a lean, mean, athletic riding machine.

TractorLegs is in the 60 min/day zone and is maintaining his lean weight.

Both the above guys also happen to fall into the BMI of "normal". I sure hope to add myself to that list one day. I expect Black wallnut to join this group with the miles/time he's putting in.

I'm getting there. This morning I was at 216. My short term goal is to get under 200 but that would still be obese. Long term goal is to get to a normal weight. Think of our societies activity profile before we had this obesity epidemic. People walked places. There were industrial jobs where folks were on their feet. Carpenters used hammers and hand saws. 1.5 hours of exercise if focused seems like a reasonable amount considering folks drive everywhere or take mass transit. FWIW in the grocery industry most dry freight is unloaded by lumpers which then have to restack on pallets that fit the warehouse rack storage system. Wellsir I've seen almost no fat lumpers in my years delivering to those warehouses. Furthermore the drivers who worked for companies that did not hire lumpers were generally more fit as well. Most people would think that driving is about as sedentary as it gets but I actually gained lots more weight when I quit driving and moved into dispatch. As a driver I asked for the loads that required me to lump or pallet jack loads on or off. I also liked loading and unloading multiple trailers in each day so I was getting in and out of the cab all day long. long winded I know but I really agree that the key is exercise in large quantities keeps weight in check as the article you cite suggests.

Mark Stone 06-13-14 03:13 PM

My body likes 215 and zeroes in on that figure no matter what I'm eating whenever my rides average 2 hours in length and I'm riding at least 4 times a week. If I weigh 190, and I start riding 2 hours/4 days, I go up to 215. If I weigh 300 (I hit 308 in August 2011) and I ride 4 times by 2 hours, my body goes to 215. It just loves 215. The only problem is at 215 I look anorexic and my wife complains (I'm 6'5"). Right now I'm at 230 to 235, but I'm not riding the 2 hours by 4 days and so I have to watch what I eat.

My body has zeroed in on 215 since 1971 when I started riding.

IBOHUNT 06-13-14 08:10 PM

@bbeasley - not sure if this helps

Last 30 days

All activities:

Count: 29 Activities
Distance: 820.48 mi
Time: 54:01:52 h:m:s

bbeasley 06-13-14 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBOHUNT (Post 16849568)
@bbeasley - not sure if this helps

Last 30 days

All activities:

Count: 29 Activities
Distance: 820.48 mi
Time: 54:01:52 h:m:s

Rik,
You're in the 90 + min/day range. I know you've dropped serious weight in the last year, does that article ring true for you?

gear64 06-13-14 09:13 PM

I eat anything and everything in moderation. Veggies to mile high pies. I generally only eat until full, not until everything that tastes good is gone. I've never been on a "diet". For the last several years I go up a few pounds in winter, then down a few pounds in summer with net losses year to year. I lost my pre 2010 data, but 2010 to 2011 officially dropped out of clyde status with 5lb loss, then 3, .5, .5. I'm closing in on the weight I was at playing competitive sports now. I only need about 3.5 hours of breaking sweat a week to hold steady. Breaking sweat can be yoga, mowing, biking, hiking, kayaking. In the summer I'm usually closer to double that number, once in a while hit teens for a week. I'm slightly north of normal weight wise, good cholesteral, fair blood sugar, excellent blood pressure, no meds. I gained most of my weight during period of high travel job. Had difficulty staying disciplined about being active on the road. Others changes included giving up soda, never enjoyed it that much anyway, not sure how I got around to drinking it everyday, guess it was just the convenience of vending machines. Drastically reducing beer intake.

JakiChan 06-13-14 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsberrios1 (Post 16848555)
I have balanced out at 7-8 hours of cycling a week and my weight stays fairly healthy (165-168 @ 8% BF).

Congrats. However, that's beyond "healthy". 8% is pretty crazy low BF.

I hope to get up to that level of riding soon with riding to work. I just have to figure out how to carry my crap. Sadly that will mean riding the hybrid and not the road bike. (Which will also mean not getting good power data since I'm not gonna put a power meter on the hybrid.)


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