RR3

OP's last two questions:

1. When to switch from the large to small chainring?

Unless it is a short hill that I want to jam really hard over, I switch to the small chain ring before the combination of the gradient and my momentum begins to slow. You do not want to be fumbling for the small chainring (those are the gears up front) when it gets steep. You want to already be in the small ring. With practice you can shift very quickly.

2. SHould I switch to clipless

YES

stephtu

Yes you should be anticipating the need to shift by looking at the slope of the incline coming. The front gears are called chainrings, rear ones are called cogs. Switch to small front ring earlier, but with the *smaller* cogs in the back, not larger. Smaller in front = lower gear. Smaller in back = higher gear. So small ring in front with a couple rear cogs *smaller* will be slightly lower than your big ring gear on the flats; using a smaller rear cog compensates a bit for the smaller ring. If you just switched rings, the gear jump would be a bit too much on a compact usually, thus you want to make it a smaller jump by also going to smaller cogs. Then as your momentum slows going up the hill, you'll be switching to larger cogs in the back to get to lower gears.

I'm usually switching to a smaller front chainring some yards before the incline (unless I have lots of momentum from an immediately preceding downhill, in which case I'm doing this on the beginning of the upslope as I'm dropping below around 15 mph or so). Then as I ride up I'm shifting into larger and larger rear cogs as my momentum slows, until I feel I am in the right gear for the speed I can handle up the particular grade (try to keep cadence ~70-90 rpm), or I have run out of lower gears.

The idea is to be in the easier gear before you need it, and pedal a little faster, until the incline slows you down into your sustainable comfortable cadence, rather than shifting after it's already too hard, because shifting is smoother with less/no force on the gears. If feeling very little resistance from the pedals, spinning them out too fast, then you can try a harder gear.

I'm not really on board with chasm54's suggestion about going to harder gears if out of breath. Pedal slower, sure. But if the problem is that one is blowing up because trying to go 9 mph when not having the sustainable power to do so, to me what is necessary is to slow down to 7 mph or even slower, not try to go the same 9 mph with lower cadence/higher gear, which I don't think would really help much. Ride your own pace up the hill, ignore any lighter fitter riders blowing by you on the left.

gpo1956

This is one of the best threads I've read yet.

sstorkel

Clipless pedals won't help you climb any better. Being able to pull up on the pedal helps you spin smoothly at a higher cadence, but most people can't generate enough pull to make an appreciable difference in their power output.

Willbird

It has been years since I have ridden true "platforms" without toe straps or anything, but when I DID and I was climbing turnpike overpasses I had a foot slip off a pedal a few times...not good.

I LOVE clipless :-)....would not be without them for long anymore :-)....I first tried them on my second go-round as a cyclist, now is my third...and I got them again pretty quickly :-). I prefer the mountain dual sided pedals and mountain shoes with the cleats recessed.....Shimano stuff so far.

Modern theory says there really is no "pulling up" going on in normal riding, if I understood it correctly the best you can do is lift the weight of your leg and foot, BUT the system keeps your foot planted in the right spot all the time :-)......we may be able to start the pedal stroke on the forward motion clipped in.

Bill

Willbird

Ok this thread inspired me to do some hill repeats myself :-)...the closest "hill" I have is a railroad over pass, 40 feet high and the ascent is around 800 feet on the hypotenuse of the triangle, roughly a 5% slope. Did it ten times, 7 times seated and 3 times standing....went around the block on each side to recover before attacking it again :-).

The tenth time I had to bail to the small chainring. 5 of the seated climbs were 38/26, but two of them I went up one more cog, I did not pay attention to gearing for standing climbs, one of the 3 standing climbs I burned out before the top and had to sit down. Heart rate was elevated :-).

Bill

notabikerchick

This really made me laugh because I've had the same issue; a few weeks ago while climbing the 2nd biggest hill I've seen so far, a fly landed on my handlebars & sat there soaking up some sun. I burst out laughing when I saw that, but I kept peddling my butt off & was able to make it to the top! Sometimes I giggle to myself at how slow I'm climbing a hill, I call it the "if I was going any slower I wouldn't even be moving" speed, but when I can make it to the top without having to walk my bike there, I call it a win

LGHT

Great advice!!!

mr_pedro

Best hill training depends on where you currently are:

1) If you currently have to stop to rest during the climb, you are going too fast, use lighter gears and go slower. This will give immediate results, almost anybody can climb any hill without stopping as long as they are not going too fast.
2) If you are currently a lot over-weight, forget about anything else and drop some fat to go faster. Again this will give immediate results as soon as you drop the weight.
3) If you still want to climb faster and you are not on a road bike, get a road bike. The stiff frame will make sure that as much of your power as possible is actually being used to get you up the hill.
4) If you currently are not too much over-weight getting up the hill on a road bike without stopping and you want to get up the hill faster: ride more, ride harder, do some interval training. This will slowly increase the power you can output and give you faster times up the hill.
5) If you have done all of the above and want to be faster, start looking into lighter bike, pedaling technique, posture and psychological effects of climbing.

chasm54

You misunderstood my point. People who aren't accustomed to riding up hills, and may be relatively unfamiliar with multiple gears, often try to pedal uphill at too high a cadence in too low a gear. They're going slow enough, but they are exhausting themselves by trying to spin like a hamster when they would be much better served at the same speed by changing up and pedalling at a more sensible rhythm.

If you doubt this, find a moderate hill and try riding up it at 10 mph in your lowest gear. Then do it again, riding at 10mph in a gear that allows you to keep your cadence down to 60 or 70. Tell me which is most tiring.

That's all I was saying. Obviously, if the OP is trying to ride up the hill faster than she can manage, then the answer is, like I said, to avoid being in a hurry. But choosing the right gear to mainatain a given speed ​is an essential skill.

salreus

Clipless pedals do help you not worry about your feet. When I first started riding my feet shifted all over the place and once and again slid off the pedals. Obviously not an issue with clipless.

Willbird

It would be nice to have a nice smooth level road with a consistent head wind and an HRM to play around with this concept :-). I have counted cadence the old fashioned way (my simple electronics do not do cadence) and my natural spin seems to be about 90. I started reading cycling mags way back on my first episode of cycling in 1990, and read some more on my second go round so "spin high cadence as opposed to grinding low cadence" has always been ingrained into my somewhat informal "training".

But consistent conditions, (hill or headwind ) would make for an interesting experiment on this, Does it vary person to person like so many other things about cycling ?? I only notice a heart rate "excursion" if you want to call it that when I decide to stay with a low gear and REALLY spin on a recovery day....but within the more normal range the effect is difficult to pin down, for me anyway :-).

Bill

chasm54

This really isn't a big deal. The general point is that for a given speed pedalling slowly in a big gear will tire your legs, while minimising the stress on your CV system, while pedalling faster in a smaller gear tends to have the reverse effect. That's true whether or not you're going uphill. And if you are aerobically fit, that means that most of the time, spinning at >90 rpm is the sensible strategy, just like you've read. The unfit find it tougher...

So all I was saying to the OP was that if she was struggling because her legs are burning (and she isn't already in her lowest gear) then it might help to change down and grind less, whereas if the limiting factor is that she's out of breath, she may find it helps if she shifts up a gear and grinds for a while. Naturally, if she's already in her lowest gear and can barely turn the pedals anyway, the point is of purely academic interest.

Easily the most important advice is to settle into a rhythm one can sustain, not worry about how fast other people think you should be going, and proceed at your own pace.

adrien

Wow, great thread.

I trained a great deal for hills in the last 3 months. Here's what I did and learned:

- have a few positions to climb in comfortably, and rotate them. I got scientific: sit back and spin with hands on the tops, stand with hands in the drops (yes, it is better than on the brifters if you are flexible enough), sit normally and rotate hips with hands on brifters. I climb about 10% standing, 60% hands on tops and spinning and 30% sitting normally
- work on your breathing. be consistent and steady
- cross-train. Especially core strength, arms / shoulders (real climbs involve these a lot), do jumping exercises and if you can, run
- do sprint training intervals that mimic hills. From a slow roll, put your bike in its highest gear. Push while standing with hands in the drops until you have reached your max exertion, coast down again. Do that three times a ride and you will get a lot stronger
- ride hills. lots of them.

I did all the above in anticipation of a climb I never thought I could handle. Despite a head cold, I did it: 6,300 feet in 35 miles.

Bike Ride Profile | 57 kilometers near Bédoin | Times and Records | Strava

sstorkel

If your feet are slipping around on the pedals than either: 1) you're using the wrong shoes and pedals, or 2) you're not climbing a hill which is the whole point of this thread.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of clipless pedals. I just don't think they're going to magically help the OP (or anyone else) get to the top of any hills. The OP specifically asked about the ability to pull up on the pedal when using a clipless system and scientific studies have proven that the vast majority of athletes generate very little power during the pedal upstroke.

Leebo

Try mountain biking, very intense workouts. Much more than spinning on a road. Pedal more. Do you bike commute to work?

Willbird

Don't a lot of serious Mountian bikers train by spinning on roads ?? :-).

Spinning on a road one can set the exertion level wherever one wants it ?? :-)

Bill

adrien

…or train on a fixed gear. Your pedaling, leg speed, strength and bike handling all will go up.

Leebo

Lots of mt bikers do train on road. Back to the OP's question about hill training. The nature of the hill climbing in mt biking forces the rider to do max effort in order to clean the climb, that is not stop or dab. The terrain forces the exertion level, not the rider. On my commute with my cross check, I pedal however I see fit, spin , mash, hammer etc. Somewhat different.

FrenchFit 

What worked for me was: a) training with standing "hill climbs" of 5-10m on a spin bike; I've learned to really enjoy getting out of the saddle as an alternative to spinning, and b) running dramatically increased my cardio and endurance.

I think what people say "..running doesn't help biking.." is fairly true once you have developed a very strong cardio/stress capability, but running is excellent to quickly build that capability in the first place.

Panza

I couldn't manage to get up hills without stopping to let my legs stop from screaming. I trained on a .5mi 12%-22% incline hill starting once, then working up to getting up it twice. then thrice. Then I said F this crap and I changed my rear cassette from 12-(23)25 to 11-(26)28. The two larger gears REALLY helped out. I then proceeded to RPM my way to my personal best KOM after training by going up four times, and have never been dropped in a group ride on a hill since. (Though I may be near the back of the pack still).

Current gearing is 50/34 x 11-28

Lets granny gear this and get it over with boys. We're not winning the hills we're just surviving to continue the ride.

stephtu

This happens often, really? I don't ever see this. Maybe the groups I'm in or the area I'm in generally have people who already know how to use gears, or learn very quickly. I can't ever really remember passing or being passed by anyone who was clearly using too low a gear, spinning 100+ rpm. I think most people kind of figure out that encountering almost no resistance from the pedals doesn't feel right and manage to try shifting up. I think using too high a gear for newbies happens way more than using too low.

Sure 10 mph is going to be too fast for most people's lowest gear. But when I started riding again, 50 pounds overweight and out of shape, on any real hill (say at least 4+%), I could not maintain 10 mph for any significant period of time regardless of the gear (had plenty of experience so knew how to use gears). I was struggling to maintain even 7 mph. So being in too low a gear was basically not possible when climbing. It seems to me being in too low a gear is an unlikely problem to have for a newbie Clyde/Athena posting about struggling up hills. More likely is they could well use a lower gear than their bike shipped with!

Perhaps this happens more on MTB/hybrid that have lower bottom gears than a typical road bike. My lowest gear is 29.3 gear-inches, and original poster's gearing is slightly higher. But still I think most people can figure out when they are spun out, and shift up, they'd have experience of the feeling of being in too low a gear on flat ground, and would be able to figure out to shift up a cog or two on a shallower 1-2% incline that they can handle at 9-10 mph.

spdracr39

I must completely disagree with this. For me being able to pedal smoothly around helps me lower my heartrate and spin faster going up hills. I could not do this by just stomping on the downstroke.

Edited to add :
I agree that just going clipless will not instantly transform your hill climbing but I am a better climber because I have learned to use the clipless than I would be without them.

chasm54

Well, OK. But studies done with pro cyclists seem to show that they are no more likely to pedal in circles than the rest of us - which is to say, not likely at all. Mostly, they - and everyone else - stomp on the pedals.

Having said that, I don't doubt for a minute that you're a better climber with clipless than without. Being securely attached to the pedals, and having your foot permanently in the perfect position, is a big advantage. Most of all, when getting out of the saddle one can be uninhibited about getting into a proper rhythm. It isn't that one pulls up on the pedal, it is that one aggressively unweights them without the fear of coming unstuck.

So my view is that sstorkel is both right and wrong. Right, in that going clipless won't help you generate more power. Wrong, in saying that going clipless won't help your climbing. Power is most if the story, but not all.

spdracr39

Agree