BigRedClydesdal

Recently I started to use TrainerRoad for my indoor workouts. I don't have a power meter, I've been using their virtual power instead (speed sensor + known trainer power curve).

The first FTP suggestion was just too high to believe. I got in touch with them and they gave me some tips on how to make things more accurate. I also found my tube had become leaky. So I put tube and followed their instructions to the letter, even recording video of me I'

The reading came in lower but still high. I did some more back and forth, we went through more troubleshooting steps and I re-did the test several times.

I'm looking into booking a test with a real power meter so I can determine how off the TrainerRoad readings are. But I thought maybe someone else ran into this same problem. I'm wondering if maybe it's because TrainerRoad is designed with a smaller body shape in mind? Are any clydesdales/athenas using TrainerRoad and getting a very high reading?

For reference the current FTP is 547, I'm 118kg which would give me a FTP/kg of 4.64.

salreus

That sounds insanely high to me. Either its way off or you are in crazy good shape.

chaadster

547w FTP?!?! Uh, while I guess it's possible, it's quite unlikely...

What did Trainerroad have to say about that? What was your test protocol?

Oh, but to your questions specifically, no, I do not use TR, have not used their VP, and don't have a particularly high FTP at 300w (just hair over 3w/kg).

dr_lha

Difficult to say how accurate your FTP number is without using a real power meter. For the record my FTP hovers around 300W (currently measured at 325W), that is with a semi accurate power meter attached to my trainer. I would say that I'm above average I think for the people on here (although I only know the FTPs of a small subset), but not I'm not crazy powerful. I know a guy who can push 800 Watts sustained, not sure what his FTP is though, but some guys are really powerful.

Out of interest, what trainer are you using?

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https://www.trainerroad.com/teams/268...ms-clydesdales

TrojanHorse

ok, any FTP over 300 and you should be racing. 547 puts you looking over your shoulder at pro tour riders going up Alpe D'huez. Seriously.

I have no comments on whether those values are skewed for clydes because I don't have a trainer and I cry about my noodle legs every time I go for a ride with a real, calibrated power meter on my bike.

Keep at it though - even if it's wrong, if it's consistently wrong you can still use it to train.

dr_lha

Not quite. Its all about FTP/kg and his value puts him in Cat 1/2 territory, not pro. 4.7 and he'd be pro!

Powerlevels / FTP: Pros vs Humans | #ShutUpLegs

technobuyer

I've been using TR, virtual power(VP), and Sufferfest Vids regularly since November. I'm about 210 down from nearly 250 last March.

My experience with VP is that it runs alot higher than actual. Not to the extent yours is though. I've got an FTP of about 240 on TR using VP. My buddy, who uses a powertap and regularly smokes me on rides, hooked his bike up to TR, and using the powertap, was working really hard to do the workouts I was "doing". Strava estimates my nominal power wattage on regular outside rides at about 177. This is probably more in line with reality.

I have the Kurt Kinetic 2.0 fluid trainer. I'm very detailed about pumping up the tires to same pressure, and in number of turns to engage etc. Even so about a couple of months ago on a single workout I had some "personal bests" on intervals that I've not come close to breaking since, even though I know I'm in better shape.

It's become a sort of joke with my riding buddy. I refer to TR/VP watts as "watt like units"(WLU's). TR was a great gateway drug into power though, and I just got a powertap G3 I'm having laced into my rear wheel. I'm looking forward, kinda, to doing an FTP test when I get the wheel back just to see how bad I really am.

In any event, I really enjoy(?) TR combined with Sufferfest. The VP is useful for training and showing indications of progress. Just don't read too much into the numbers, as in at least my case, a racing career is not so imminent...

Out of curiosity, what test protocol did you use to determine your FTP?

TrojanHorse

Yes, although you could argue that FTP/kg is critical when discussing hills and less so on flats, and you inadvertently proved my point. Jens Voigt's FTP is approximately 420-440 and he trains a little more than all of us put together AND is predispositioned to be an excellent endurance athlete. 547 is not even reasonably close to a valid FTP for a non-racing amateur athlete.

That chart shows 20 min. power numbers anyway, not FTPs. FTP should be 95% of your 20 min. number, so you figure it that way and 4.67 puts him right back in the pro ranks.

trevorderuise

Hmmm what kind of trainer are you using? Many times trainers will have different resistance settings and if you don't have the correct one selected within the app, you can get some pretty varied VP readings. Still, the most important thing when it comes to Virtual Power is consistency. I use a power meter for most of my workouts, but when I train/warm up while I'm traveling using virtual power (no power meter on my mountain bike) I use a separate FTP that I tested for on that specific trainer using Virtual Power just so I know it's accurate and consistent. It's not a number I can really compare with friends because it may not be as accurate as a PM, but I know it's accurate for my setup and keeps me honest and working just as hard as I am with my PM.

-Trevor from TrainerRoad

IBOHUNT

I'd go with the above until TR or someone figures out how it's off by whatever amount it is. When you said you've done the test several times which test are you doing?
If you are pedaling at a semi consistent cadence does the power number reported fluctuate all over the place?

I use TR but I have a Stages crank based power meter. I've never looked at the Virtual Power. I know my Stages doesn't read the same as what a Compu-Trainer reads which is based off of rear wheel power however consistent week to week. For me, I don't care much about the number as long as it's consistent. It's my number to train with.

An FTP with that number and I'd be slapping a number on my jersey every week. Heck, give me that number for a 8 min peak and I'd be happier than a dog with a new bone. My paltry FTP number isn't even in the same city much less ballpark.

dr_lha

Well, less critical sure, but extra weight means it takes more power to accelerate as quickly on flats, and certainly your rolling resistance will be higher, meaning more drag, let alone the extra drag caused by the lack of "aero" profile of a Clyde vs a 168lb rider!

Yeah, OK. I was hoping that you wouldn't bring that up.

Anyway, back to more serious matters, I see that the OP has a magnetic trainer: How does TR account for the variable resistance settings on such a trainer? Do they just tell you to set it on the lowest/highest setting or something?

I think that Virtual Power is a great idea, but at the end of the day the best they can guarantee it's accuracy is +/- 30-40 Watts systematic error, and +/- 2 Watts error (once the systematic is removed) on high end Fluid Trainers made by Kurt Kinetic, which are knowm for their very stable power curve. I would say that with other trainers, all bets are off honestly.

vesteroid

Oh my goodness. As I have said before, post strava links to these rides showing real power numbers on real rides, then lets discuss FTP.

I dont have any sort of even close to good FTP. I just hit 230 last week. I have only ever been as high as 250. I have ridden with a few guys on this forum and I watch their power numbers when they ride and post on strava. I see them putting out averages well into the 230-250 range, where I see my averages more in the 170-190 range. I know Their FTP is way higher than mine, and both of them are lighter than I am.

I have a buddy in FL thats 50 and has completed many iron mans and even Kona. He has insane power numbers, holding 423 for over 20 minutes just last week. His almost one hour average (was something like 54 minutes) was in the 320s Even with those awesome numbers he is low a very high b in his florida groups.

He will be the first to admit out of his group, he is always last up a climb, and he is barely a clyde.

I would guess Ibo is the fittest, highest trained guy we have in this forum and I doubt his FTP is 300. TH has some awesome averages if you watch his rides, and he averages in the 220-230 range every ride, and I doubt he is falling off the bike tired when he gets back.

I can tell you getting all wrapped up in elevation, or corrected elevation, or estimated power is all to make yourself feel better. The real test is go ride with a good b group and see if you can hang. Even when I did have a ftp of 250 and weighed 215, the really good b guys dropped me like a rock. We climbed one little hill of less than 300 feet and by the time I hit the top, they were at the bottom on the flat in a double pace line and I never saw them again.

I dont want to sound negative, but these numbers are just training tools, not measuring sticks, and the proof is on the road, not on the trainer.

dr_lha

Likewise talking about someone being a "b rider" is equally meaningless, because those categories have no official definition, and typically are just set by the local clubs.

vesteroid

well then, post up real power files and we can all have quantitative data to compare.

dr_lha

My trainer has a power meter attached. When it was correctly calibrated, I was getting an measured FTP via the 8 and 20 minute test of around 300 Watts.

8 Minute Test by jak574 on Monday, December 15, 2014 - TrainerRoad

Or do you want something else?

TrojanHorse

Just out of curiosity, do you have to calibrate your power meter before you ride? Or your wahoo, or how ever it is you're getting data.

dr_lha

Right now, I don't. So my calibration is off, by about +30W I'd estimate. This is an issue with the TR iOS app that I'm using, the TR guys need to implement calibration.

Before (the ride I posted above), I used my Mac, the TR Mac app has spin down calibration built in. Here's how the calibration works: You ride for 10 minutes to warm up the trainer, and then perform the calibration which involves spinning up to 21 mph, and then stopping pedaling and allowing the system to spin down freely. The time taken to spin down calibrates the power meter, as it basically measures all the friction in the system, which tends to change with every ride (how tight are your rollers, how inflated are your tires etc).

DC Rainmaker's review of the inRide has examples where he compares the calibrated inRide with a couple of regular power meters, and they're good within a few watts on average, so I don't have any reason to believe that my FTP values measured back in December were hugely off.

I can't afford a power meter right now that goes on the bike, I'd certainly like one, but right now I'm spending on buying a new bike instead. Still I have my eye on the upcoming 4iiii power meter that goes for $350 for a left-side only (i.e. like the Stages, but half the price).

BigRedClydesdal

I'll try to answer everyone and give as much background as I can.

salreus: Yes, it sounds crazy high to me too. To be honest I had no idea at first. But I use TrainerRoad with others, we get together and ride together. When I started doing the FTP tests, that's when people started telling me my numbers were crazy high. It's why I contacted TrainerRoad about it.

chaadster: TrainerRoad was pretty great with going through all kinds of steps to make sure everything was fine:
-They had me check to make sure my speed/cadence sensor was aligned right, that the sensor wasn't hitting the magnet on the spokes, that I only had the one magnet (that one made me laugh) and that I had no magnetized spokes).
- They had me confirm my wheel circumference & that my wheel circumference was set accurately in the application.
- They had me confirm my tire pressure was consistently set, that the resistance on the trainer was set correctly, and the trainer/resistance combo was set correctly in the application.
- They asked me to make sure that my tire was not slipping on the trainer at all.
- They asked me why I had my resistance on the trainer set so high (well, so I can get enough resistance! ).

dr_lha: I joined the team! Right now I'm using a JetBlack M1 Pro trainer.
TR takes into account variable trainers by inputting what you have it set to. So in my config I have it set to JetBlack M1/M1 Pro Level 5 resistance.

TrojanHorse: Well, I promise if the numbers are even remotely close, I'll take up racing this coming season . Right or wrong, I'll use it to monitor my training level and will keep it up.

technobuyer: I've tried TR with Sufferfest videos only once, but it was a blast. Normally I'm using the TrainerRoad app on my wife's ipad mini. I've been the same about things like tire pressure (I have my procedure below) to make sure things stay consistent. I think you're absolutely right that TR is a "gateway drug" to real power meters. I don't have the cash to throw at a power meter yet, but I am trying to find a place where I can at least have it tested.

trevorderuise: I'm using a JetBlack M1 Pro trainer, with resistance set to Level 5. I have it set in the app at level 5 as well. I will keep training even if the numbers are astronomically wrong for reasons I have listed below. If you are curious the ticket I have going is for the same username (BigRedClydesdale). People at support have treated me great & have been very patient with me. I've tried to take pictures and/or video of everything in my setup to ensure that they are getting accurate info.

IBOHUNT: I've been using the 8 minute test in Trainer Road (I have a link to it below). Everything stays pretty consistent, the only fluctuation I've noticed is an occasional drop which I'm told is just the nature of Bluetooth 4.n Yes, even with it being wrong I will keep training, I guess the key is it being consistently wrong .

General:
This is the last test I performed, the 8 minute test. The FTP was set to 500 and after the test TR recommended I use 547:
8 Minute Test by BigRedClydesdale on Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - TrainerRoad

I don't consider myself a pro. In fact, I've never raced and never rode in a group setting. I started cycling due to several health problems (cardiovasular, diabetes, weight). I have been riding 4-6 times per week in order to stay healthy. I've managed to reverse my type 2 diabetes from the cycling; its great encouragement to keep going. Especially since it lets me consume my 2 favourite things, beer and ice cream

I would not describe myself in crazy shape; I might describe my shape as crazy. My legs are now very athletic and muscle toned. From the waist up I'm still in Pillsbury-Doughboy land. I have lost a fair amount of weight since March (140kg to 118kg). Though since I've been indoor cycling my weight loss has plateau'd. My waist went down to the point where I could wear my "skinny jeans" but now my upper legs have gotten big and they don't fit again.

Currently I cycle 4-6 times per week. I usually do 3-4 times per week indoor on the trainer with a group. The bike I use is a 2014 Norco Valence A1. I try to outdoor cycle 1-2 times per week as well, on a 2010 Norco Scrambler with Ice Spiker Pro tires; it's not a fast ride but it's very fun to ride it on frozen lakes. This will change once its warm enough (and the road salt is gone) to ride my Valence outdoors again.

The procedure I use every trainer session:
- Loosen the trainer from the wheel.
- Pump the tire to 100PSI
- Spin the rear tire; tighten the trainer until I see the flywheel moving solidly.
- Tighten the trainer using 1.5 revolutions (as described in the instruction manual).
- Grab the flywheel with my left and and make sure I can't move the tire with my right hand.

Misc:
Trainer: JetBlack M1 Pro set to level 5.
HRM: Polar H7
Speed/Cadence: Wahoo Blue SC

BigRedClydesdal

Would love to but can't afford a real power meter. Do you know of a power meter that is easy to swap between bikes? Perhaps I could ask someone local to borrow theirs? Or would this be a faux pas akin to borrowing a pair of cycling shorts?

Well I'll definitely try to go riding with a "b group" on the road in late spring/early summer. Currently there is no a, b, c or z group out there, I've been the only person I've seen when I cycle outside in the winter in rural Ontario. I see lots of snowmobiles; they drop me all the time.

dr_lha

Most obvious answer to this question would be a PowerTap, where the power meter is the hub of the rear wheel. I don't know anyone who uses one so am not aware of the etiquette regarding borrowing one!

Another way to get an independent measure of your FTP would be to go to a spinning class, and doing their test.

Honestly though, if your FTP setting means that when you do your TrainerRoad rides, it's pushing you, then the absolute value doesn't really matter. Thats the beauty of scaled Power-based training. What your FTP actually is doesn't matter unless you start believing the Calorie burn numbers that you're getting out of these rides.

vesteroid

I ride powertap and if you plan to use one with trainer road, you will need an ant+ dongle to pick up the powertap

You would also have to disassociate any trainer you may have and make sure TR is using the powertap to calc its power, and not from the trainer.

Nothing sacred about powertap except that you would be asking someone to loan you a wheel costing north of 1K more than likely

dr_lha

FYI TrainerRoad automatically disables virtual power if it detects a power meter.

chaadster

Hmm, well, first of all...HOLY SH*T!

I've never seen anyone post numbers like that before, so I'm suitably, well, scared of BigRed!

Seriously, that's pretty amazing. I'm mean, you're a legit big guy and takes some force to motivate that mass, but still, that's a lot of juice.

I'd imagine you'll find, once you start riding with others, that you're quite capable of hanging with most anyone, though climbs will still present a challenge.

If you can drop the weight and get down to 100kg or even a bit under, you'll really be crushin' it.

Well sh*t...you made my day. I gotta go find another 200w somewhere...

TrojanHorse

The powertap training wheels (as in, the aluminum ones, not the enve ones) are pretty cheap these days. Maybe 6-700 bucks? I have a set I'd be willing to let go for less than that now that I have a quarq.

chaadster

So how far off could VP be from a real power meter? 50w? 100? More? Less?

Looking at BigRed's ride, he nailed those 8min intervals really steadily, so it's not like the numbers were jumping all over the place, leading me to think that once the error is corrected, he'll still have a pretty good FTP number.