Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-15-15, 03:44 PM   #1
ParkingTheBus
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Bikes: Multiple GIANT bicycles
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Do you ever confront bad drivers?

I know it's bad, but there's times where I do. Maybe I'm just a hot tempered 22 year old, but I feel like I need to speak up sometimes. Times where I get passed by mere inches, right hooked to the point where I have to slam on the brakes or cut off or just general stuff that puts my life at risk, I get a rush of blood to the head and become frustrated. I'll try to catch up to them at the red light or a parking lot, sometimes reacting with anger, sometimes politely telling them to be careful.

This doesn't happen often, but it's really infuriating when a bad or ignorant driver almost hits me off my bike to get to their destination 10 seconds faster.

An experiences?
ParkingTheBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 03:53 PM   #2
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I try to educate or "gesticulate at" drivers who threaten others whenever I can. I don't particularly care about drivers who break minor traffic statutes without endangering others.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 04:01 PM   #3
YouthInAsia
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My advice would be this: Don't let your anger control you. I say that as a 42-year-old man with a confrontational personality. If/when you confront someone, do it tactfully or you're not going to get the result you want. And, in general, I don't consider it worth my time to confront drivers anyhow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkingTheBus View Post
I know it's bad, but there's times where I do. Maybe I'm just a hot tempered 22 year old...
YouthInAsia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 04:16 PM   #4
rmfnla
Senior Member
 
rmfnla's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: La La Land (We love it!)
Bikes: Gilmour road, Curtlo road; both steel (of course)
Posts: 5,928
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
I'm often tempted but there are just too many crazy/angry/armed people out there, especially in cars...
__________________
Today, I believe my jurisdiction ends here...
rmfnla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 04:36 PM   #5
myzamboni
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Bikes: 2009 Trek Soho
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I would never make to work if I did that for every bad driver . . .
myzamboni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 04:37 PM   #6
ItsJustMe
Seņior Member
 
ItsJustMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Posts: 13,025
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Nah, I consider motorists being dumb to be in the same category as water being wet. And it's about as much use yelling at the water and expecting it to change. For the same reason I don't get worked up about dumb. I do post videos of the dumb though.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 05:06 PM   #7
caloso
Packfodding 3
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Bikes: Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper
Posts: 33,721
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 96 Post(s)
I admit that I have. And that I have always regretted it. Confronting rarely changes the driver's behavior and only serves to upset my own emotional and psychological peace. I try to remember Marcus Aurelius' take:

Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of the ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together...
caloso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 05:16 PM   #8
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmfnla View Post
I'm often tempted but there are just too many crazy/angry/armed people out there, especially in cars...
If posts on this forum and the censoring of the word *** are any indication, I would be more reluctant to confront an angry cyclist than an angry motorist.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 05:32 PM   #9
ParkingTheBus
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Bikes: Multiple GIANT bicycles
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
Nah, I consider motorists being dumb to be in the same category as water being wet. And it's about as much use yelling at the water and expecting it to change. For the same reason I don't get worked up about dumb. I do post videos of the dumb though.
Cool, where can i watch the videos?
Quote:
Originally Posted by myzamboni View Post
I would never make to work if I did that for every bad driver . . .
LOL
ParkingTheBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 06:42 PM   #10
bubbagrannygear
just ride
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Central Jersey
Bikes: specialized roubaix, dawes sst ( steel single speed)
Posts: 367
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes time and annoys the pig."
bubbagrannygear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 06:43 PM   #11
Flounce
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
I think I have the anecdote you're fishing for.

I often bike at night - commuting - and am used to having young guys who are cruising around on Friday night shout stuff at me for no reason, half the time they are probably drunk.

This happened last month, also a Friday night. I could hear the car roll up behind me and some guys laughing and having a good time, I turn to look at them and they were along side me and the car suddenly swerves TOWARD me on purpose. They stopped before they actually hit me and before I could even react, but they came within two feet of me and gave me a real scare. It was obvious they were screwing around with me, maybe trying to get me to swerve into the curb and fall down.

I was really pissed but usually there's not much to do when there's a car full of guys who would enjoy nothing more than to stomp a cyclist.

But as they pulled ahead, everyone in the car laughing at what they just did, I could see that they were a bunch of teenagers, high school guys and girls in an SUV. The arrogance pissed me off. My anger got the best of me and I raced behind them and caught up to them at the next stop sign.

I pulled right up to the passenger window and got in one guy's face and said, "you guys are real tough, how about you to step out of the fuc**** car? " There was no way I could actually take them, but I was so pissed, I didn't care.

There was a moment of silence as they looked at each other before the driver cussed at me and sped off, as I shouted, "Yep, that's what I thought."

I'm a 38 year old physician with four kids, and I haven't done something that stupid or felt that level of aggression since high school.

It was a dumb thing to do, as things could have ended very differently that night if they had actually decided to step out of the car. I used to train in BJJ and have learned that there are a lot of guys out there who train and know how to fight.


P.S. Orange County, California, grants concealed carry permits (CCW) to most anyone who applies, and I've started the process to get one. I don't know if I'd actually carry my 9 while biking at night, as it'd lower my threshold for seeking confrontations with stupid people, but it's fun to think about.

Last edited by Flounce; 05-15-15 at 06:52 PM.
Flounce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 06:56 PM   #12
ItsJustMe
Seņior Member
 
ItsJustMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Posts: 13,025
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkingTheBus View Post
Cool, where can i watch the videos?
Here's my channel, but it's got a lot of electronics videos and band concerts and such

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHp...gjn28GnGulXaUQ

Here are the dumb driver selections. There are 2 or 3 of these that I consider to be at least partially my own fault. I think it's useful to keep them and post them publicly so I can remember to not do that again, and to show others a dumb thing to not do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCGBR0zYLHk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvfjNZsx148
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiXSEme1_0o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcdCdN-dZIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShqVJbC2VHc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzhdOW4PPn4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hiZgxpWNlQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVKDTMh4ZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOwv_IXZdIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8scqW5cGNuE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwEb-HXOPLk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w2rxrkzTE
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 07:00 PM   #13
baron von trail 
Senior Member
 
baron von trail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SW Ohio
Bikes: 3 good used ones
Posts: 3,272
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkingTheBus View Post
I know it's bad, but there's times where I do. Maybe I'm just a hot tempered 22 year old, but I feel like I need to speak up sometimes. Times where I get passed by mere inches, right hooked to the point where I have to slam on the brakes or cut off or just general stuff that puts my life at risk, I get a rush of blood to the head and become frustrated. I'll try to catch up to them at the red light or a parking lot, sometimes reacting with anger, sometimes politely telling them to be careful.

This doesn't happen often, but it's really infuriating when a bad or ignorant driver almost hits me off my bike to get to their destination 10 seconds faster.

An experiences?
I try not to, but sometimes I just have to say something.
baron von trail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 07:06 PM   #14
B. Carfree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Bikes:
Posts: 6,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
I don't do it very often, but when I do it is generally not done in anger. Most motorists are simply ignorant. They think of themselves as law-abiding good citizens, so I play to their personal story and give them the wording and statute number for the laws they unwittingly violated. I try to stress the reason for the law and do a lot of smiling. Most times they respond positively and appreciate the information. Either that, or they realize I'll leave sooner if they say thank you.

I live in far too small a city to expect anonymity. I expect that most of the people I encounter on any given day will be people that I have encountered before and will encounter again. It's not going to do me much good to scream at them.
B. Carfree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 08:13 PM   #15
bmthom.gis 
Senior Member
 
bmthom.gis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Columbia, SC
Bikes: 2014 Cannondale Synapse Carbon 4 Rival; 2014 Cannondale Trail 7 29; 1972 Schwinn Suburban, 1996 Proflex 756, 1987(?) Peugeot, Trek Soho S; 1979 Raleigh Competition GS; 1992 Miyata Seven21, 1978 Raleigh Sports
Posts: 2,524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Nope. Cagers r gonna be cagers. Ill wave or blow a kiss, bc that probably freaks them out more than confrontation ever will.
__________________
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies."
bmthom.gis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 08:44 PM   #16
hueyhoolihan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Above ground, Walnut Creek, Ca
Bikes: 7⃥ 9 road bikes
Posts: 6,401
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
because i rely entirely on my own wherewithal WRT safety, if i encounter a dangerous situation caused by a driver, i note it, think about how i can possibly avoid it or anticipate it in the future, then and carry on.
hueyhoolihan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 08:46 PM   #17
Daniel4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto
Bikes:
Posts: 747
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
There are many threads regarding confronting bad cyclists (red light runners, stop sign runners, riding on the sidewalk). Most suggestions are not to make the confrontation but if the offense is really bad and repetitive report it to the police. Offending motorists will be worse. It's not worth your aggravation and time.

I've once had an impatient driver pass me only to lose control and almost get into a collision with another motorist heading in the opposite direction.
Daniel4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 08:47 PM   #18
moobot22
Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
In the instances where bad drivers have put me in real danger I've been too shocked and adrenaline flooded to be angry.

Once I was ridding hard in the city on a one way street with a nice big bike lane. A woman in an SUV pulled out and turned the wrong way on to the one way street. As soon as she saw me and the other cars coming towards her she slammed on the brakes and yanked the wheel so that the car went into a sideways slide. At the same time I was sliding for what felt like forever before I kind of gently bumped her rear fender. She was so embarrassed she was crying and apologizing and trying to get the car turned around it was almost funny by the time she got going the right way again.

What does get on my nerves more than anything is the Mexican standoff of ignorant politeness. Where I stop at a stop sign that another car clearly arrived at first but they just sit there smiling, waiting for me to go rather than just following the damn rules. Like look, I'm not going because I'm cautious of idiots. If you're not going to take your turn and just do what the rules say and what I'm expecting you to do we can all go home. I
moobot22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 09:11 PM   #19
Cosmic Hawk
Senior Member
 
Cosmic Hawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: O'ahu, Hawai'i
Bikes: BMC Time Machine TMR01
Posts: 135
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
A guy ran a light in front of me as I was coming to the intersection years ago only to get stuck in traffic on the other side of the intersection. It was a close call and I can bet he didn't see me at all. I rolled over to his passenger side and said ,"hey man, you just almost ran me over right there!!!" He just looked over at me and said ,fucc you!!" And flipped me the bird.

I completely lost it. I punched the side of his car a few times and kicked it a couple more before riding off. He looked scared ****less, so I guess I made my point. I literally saw nothing but red. I could t believe he had the nerve to say that to me. I would do the same thing all over again too. Perhaps I should be ashamed, but it was the best release of negative energy I have ever had.
Cosmic Hawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 10:27 PM   #20
ParkingTheBus
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Bikes: Multiple GIANT bicycles
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounce View Post
I think I have the anecdote you're fishing for.

I often bike at night - commuting - and am used to having young guys who are cruising around on Friday night shout stuff at me for no reason, half the time they are probably drunk.

This happened last month, also a Friday night. I could hear the car roll up behind me and some guys laughing and having a good time, I turn to look at them and they were along side me and the car suddenly swerves TOWARD me on purpose. They stopped before they actually hit me and before I could even react, but they came within two feet of me and gave me a real scare. It was obvious they were screwing around with me, maybe trying to get me to swerve into the curb and fall down.

I was really pissed but usually there's not much to do when there's a car full of guys who would enjoy nothing more than to stomp a cyclist.

But as they pulled ahead, everyone in the car laughing at what they just did, I could see that they were a bunch of teenagers, high school guys and girls in an SUV. The arrogance pissed me off. My anger got the best of me and I raced behind them and caught up to them at the next stop sign.

I pulled right up to the passenger window and got in one guy's face and said, "you guys are real tough, how about you to step out of the fuc**** car? " There was no way I could actually take them, but I was so pissed, I didn't care.

There was a moment of silence as they looked at each other before the driver cussed at me and sped off, as I shouted, "Yep, that's what I thought."

I'm a 38 year old physician with four kids, and I haven't done something that stupid or felt that level of aggression since high school.

It was a dumb thing to do, as things could have ended very differently that night if they had actually decided to step out of the car. I used to train in BJJ and have learned that there are a lot of guys out there who train and know how to fight.


P.S. Orange County, California, grants concealed carry permits (CCW) to most anyone who applies, and I've started the process to get one. I don't know if I'd actually carry my 9 while biking at night, as it'd lower my threshold for seeking confrontations with stupid people, but it's fun to think about.
Yep, you never know what could happen and it's always best to avoid confrontations. You're right but as we all know, sometimes we can't help it. It would be especially dangerous if it was on a secluded country road for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
Here's my channel, but it's got a lot of electronics videos and band concerts and such

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHp...gjn28GnGulXaUQ

Here are the dumb driver selections. There are 2 or 3 of these that I consider to be at least partially my own fault. I think it's useful to keep them and post them publicly so I can remember to not do that again, and to show others a dumb thing to not do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCGBR0zYLHk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvfjNZsx148
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiXSEme1_0o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcdCdN-dZIY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShqVJbC2VHc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzhdOW4PPn4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hiZgxpWNlQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuVKDTMh4ZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOwv_IXZdIk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8scqW5cGNuE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwEb-HXOPLk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41w2rxrkzTE
Thanks, going to subscribe and watch

Quote:
Originally Posted by moobot22 View Post

What does get on my nerves more than anything is the Mexican standoff of ignorant politeness. Where I stop at a stop sign that another car clearly arrived at first but they just sit there smiling, waiting for me to go rather than just following the damn rules. Like look, I'm not going because I'm cautious of idiots. If you're not going to take your turn and just do what the rules say and what I'm expecting you to do we can all go home. I
LOL yep, I hate when cars don't proceed through the stop sign when it's their turn... Ruins my damn momentum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Hawk View Post
A guy ran a light in front of me as I was coming to the intersection years ago only to get stuck in traffic on the other side of the intersection. It was a close call and I can bet he didn't see me at all. I rolled over to his passenger side and said ,"hey man, you just almost ran me over right there!!!" He just looked over at me and said ,fucc you!!" And flipped me the bird.

I completely lost it. I punched the side of his car a few times and kicked it a couple more before riding off. He looked scared ****less, so I guess I made my point. I literally saw nothing but red. I could t believe he had the nerve to say that to me. I would do the same thing all over again too. Perhaps I should be ashamed, but it was the best release of negative energy I have ever had.
This is something I always feel like doing. Even fi they did chase me, I could easily out maneuver a car with my bike.
ParkingTheBus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 10:49 PM   #21
Reynolds 
Passista
 
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaņa pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
Posts: 5,448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
I did a couple of times, but no longer. It's not worth it.
Reynolds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-15, 11:01 PM   #22
Reynolds 
Passista
 
Reynolds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaņa pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
Posts: 5,448
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post

Here are the dumb driver selections.
Thanks! A good reminder to be careful. I've been in those situations many times, the last one I was hit head-on by a car coming from the right at a T junction, luckily we both were going slowly and braked at the last moment, so only minor injuries.
Reynolds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-15, 01:00 AM   #23
CliffordK 
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 9,939
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 361 Post(s)
Review this thread about a biker that gave a person passing him the finger for passing too close... Then the driver tried to run the biker off the road, and eventually hopped out of the vehicle and knocked the bicyclist off of the bike.

THIS is what we as cyclists do not do, for the reason shown...

I just ignore the bad drivers as much as possible.

I have thought it would be good to photograph the ones that pass cars coming towards me... that is hair raising.
CliffordK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-15, 01:37 AM   #24
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
As a cyclist, and professional driver it would simply take up too much of my time.

When working I have outside influences and considerations that preclude me doing it. On my own time I tend to be thick skinned and easy going, but also have a temper when pushed, and I have found trouble because of it. Fortunately up to this point it has worked out in my favor, but I know I need to be more restrained as ones luck is bound to run out in time.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-15, 01:47 AM   #25
kickstart 
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 4,712
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
If posts on this forum and the censoring of the word *** are any indication, I would be more reluctant to confront an angry cyclist than an angry motorist.
There's probably some truth in that.
Here in the US cycling tends to attract active, type A, confrontational personalities who are keyed up by physical exertion. There are countless of posts here on BF demonstrate that.
On the other hand, cyclists are probably less likely to be miscreants with a long record and nothing to loose, therefore less likely to go all the way.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:00 PM.