kickstart

May I quote their own definition of what the Ragrai is?

"For those of you who have never ridden, this rolling celebration of Iowa attracts participants from all 50 states and many foreign countries. It has covered thousands of miles through the years, and hundreds of thousands of riders have hopped in the saddle to pedal part of those miles.
RAGBRAI is a bicycle ride, not a race."

tjspiel

Again, a race is not the only kind of challenge there is. Climbing Everest isn't a race. It is a challenge. Ragbrai can be a celebration of Iowa, a party, all while the challenge of completing it still being a central theme.

If you've ever done some sort of very popular endurance event, you will know that they are all parties, they're all celebrations, especially in small towns. Even the marketing for the Twin Cities Marathon describes it as "The Most Beautiful Urban Marathon in America". They aren't just drudgery.

I agree that it's not an exclusive event nor would I want it to be. It is achievable by everyday people, but they do have to train, they do have to push themselves. Running a marathon is also achievable by everyday people. If you don't believe me, watch one. There are people who will just go out and do one with no training at all (not recommended).

Also from the Ragbrai website:

It doesn't say: Pedal assist is a relatively new development. For Ragbrai, people use all sorts of bikes and some don't use bikes at all. They'll rollerblade or even run. But it is all human powered. For now they haven't excluded e-bikes and they may never but that would be a shame. That would change what it means to finish a Ragbrai and dip your front tire in the river.

gregf83 

If that's the most physically difficult thing the riders have ever attempted I'd question whether they're real 'cyclists'. Seems like e-bike riders would fit it in well.

wphamilton

That kind of exploded into an argument. I don't have much to say about endurance events or cycling competitions, but I do enjoy the sporting nature of cycling including commutes. I do a fair bit of riding, 5-6,000 mile years and pretty consistent with the commutes.

Still I'd kind of like an e-bike and I'm tempted from time to time by the wheel hub motors. What stops me isn't that it's cheating, or too easy. It's the limitations of what's reasonably available and legal. I really don't get the identity politics getting bound up with it.

mr geeker

As far as I'm concerned an E-bike is as much a bicycle as a velomobile is a car. There is nothing elitist about that opinion either.

This by no means means that I wouldn't ride one if given the chance, because I would, just that I don't think that they çount as a bicycle.

kickstart

Maybe, maybe not, and certainly very subjective.

tjspiel

I agree and also think it's a little over the top. For somebody who is a competitive distance cyclist it's not likely to be that hard at all, but a marathon alone isn't particularly hard for an ultra marathoner or someone who participates in an ironman competition either. Nevertheless the statement illustrates that Ragbrai is intended to be a challenge for most people. If it weren't, it would be a different type of event.

alan s 

An e-bike is as much a motorcycle as it is a bike. That's where we part ways. Add a motor, and it is no longer a bicycle.

tjspiel

I also have not ruled some sort of an e-bike for winter use at some point down the road, especially if I had to commute much farther than I already do. That in my mind at least, is entirely different than using one to complete a distance event.

canklecat

Since I first met them thirtysomething years ago, roadies have often impressed me as aloof, not snobbish. Not quite the same thing. Long distance bicycling tends to attract introspective, self-sufficient people who may occasionally seem a bit tactless and lacking in social graces - at least when they're in the zone. But that's a characteristic common to many folks who choose pursuits that demand self-sufficiency over a long run. And despite the quirky hybrid teamwork of competitive road racing, it's still largely a one-person sport.

Now, commuters... that's a different story. Years ago when I was commuting it was mostly a utilitarian thing. I can't recall ever hearing a hint of snobbishness until the confluence of the interwebs and manufacturers introducing niche models that appealed to the wannabe's, the riders who weren't competitive in official events but still needed bragging rights and fish stories. Some commuters sound like Kahn Souphanousinphone from King of the Hill, desperate social climbers anxious to outdo their redneck neighbors by driving more expensive cars to work.

No idea about competitive mountain bikers, cyclocrossers or others. Haven't hung around them.

Serious cyclists in general are an odd lot. How often do we encounter amateurs pursuing a hobby in which all participants look like extras from "Robin Hood: Men in Tights" or cosplayers from "Lord of the Rings: Revenge of the Urban Elves"?

mcours2006

I don't care about the distinction between a 'real' bike and one that has a motor assist from a semantic perspective. If an ebike makes it easier for you to ride to work, then great. Where I have issue is an ebike on a MUP meant for non-motorized vehicles. I sometimes run on MUP, and when our children were small we used to take walks along it. I don't like the idea of a motorized vehicle using the same path that I am pushing my stroller on. Would I be pushing my stroller on the bike lane? Same reason that as a pedestrian I don't like cyclist riding on the sidewalk.

noglider 

I used to be a snob. Maybe I still am, but less, I hope. I'm very pleased that people of all types are riding in NYC now. Clearly, many are not bike lovers. They're just people who have places to go and a bike just makes sense for them.

mcours2006

As for snobbery or elitism in cycling, people who are snobs will be snobs in cycling. People who are genuine, unpretentious, and down-to-earth will be that way when it comes to cycling.

I like to count myself in the latter category. I am quite pleased and excited to learn that some of my other friends also ride a bike, and one of them even started commuting to work because of a conversation I had with him a year ago. I was eager to share my experience/expertise with him. Yes, I was interested to know what bike he rode, but also interested to hear about his experience of commuting in a much more urban setting than where I live.

Maybe it's because I myself am relatively new at this commuting thing. Maybe some of the excitement will wear off over time, but some of you here on the commuting forum have been doing it for many more years than I, and it does not appear that you have lost your enthusiasm for it. This is hopeful.

mr geeker

So you both agree and disagree with what I said? That's... hmmm...

no motor?

I guess I'm lucky as most of my interaction with other bicyclists is online here in virtual reality instead of reality and whatever the snobs think is primarily academic.

GovernorSilver

I've done group rides and happy hours with local cyclists and have been fortunate to get along with just about all of them. There are a few local cyclists who hang out online that don't show up in person at in-person hangs - those seem to feel freer to be less positive in their online interactions, funny how keyboard courage works.

alan s 

Looking back, not really sure what you were saying, but in my view, adding a motor to a bicycle means it's no longer a bicycle. So we agree? I'm not going to start equating bicycles (solely powered by a person and gravity and the wind) and non-bicycles (partially or completely powered by a motor of any sort).

Miele Man

I worked at a large bicycle store where most of the mechanics referred to department store bicycles as "BSO" or "Bicycle shaped Objects". That wasn't due to elitism but was due to their experience trying to get those bicycles that usually had inferior almost junk components on then to work properly. So many junky "BSO"s are bought by people planning to bicycle but due to the inferior components/setup/adjustments seldom get ridden.

A friend of mine went to Vancouver Island in iirc 1974, bought a very cheap bicycle and rode it to Newfoundland (took a ferry over the open waters) and wrote a book about his journey.

People can buy an inexpensive department store bicycle and if properly adjusted they can ride it for years with great enjoyment.

Something I do see a lot of on some forums and in some bicycle stores is replies to someone wanting to fix something on a mid-1980s bicycle. Often they get told to trash the bike and buy a new one. Meantime that bike has served the person very well, fits perfectly, has a number of memories held dear by the owner and brings the owner great pleasure. Why should they have to get rid of it because some item like an indexed downtube shifter has finally worn out?

I rode my single speed to a bicycle shop here in town because I needed something for my geared bicycle. The guy at the shop flat out and very seriously told me they don't like single speeds or fixed gear bicycles there. I told them that was fine as i was quite willing to take my busines to the shop another 8 kilometers up the road which I did.

Cheers

Papa Tom

See, but that's generalizing, as many of us - including me sometimes - are guilty of. I am a commuter, but I also ride for leisure. And in the summertime, I become a tourist, which some might call a "roadie." Yes, I agree that many of the people I meet out on the road, particularly the guys we tend to stereotype as "roadies," tend to be more self-absorbed than I am when I am on the bike. But I am also a lot of things that those same roadies might find unworthy of calling a "roadie." I tour on a beat-up mid-90's steel mountain bike covered in decals, I wear shorts, a t-shirt, and cheap sneakers, and I wave and smile at anybody who passes. I don't feel like a roadie when I'm out there, but I surely feel like a bicyclist.

I forgot the point I was trying to make.

bmthom.gis

I'm a smug snob at times. It's okay though. I like what I like and have my opinions on things such as whether or not an ebike is a bike or an electric moped. I disagree with a lot of things I have heard in order to market them, such as to older people because surely they can't keep up with the young whippersnappers (which, duh is completely false). Anyway, I'll be a bit pretentious but I'll try my best to keep it to myself. All I really wanna know is, what pressure you runnin?

DrIsotope

I don't judge cyclists on what the ride or what they wear. It makes no difference to me. My sole point of judgement is how they ride. Like the group of 6 gents yesterday, in such a hurry to cross a crowded thoroughfare, that they participated in some of the most awful, juvenile techniques to make it across-- half the group crossed the T-intersection on the wrong side of the road, to the left of oncoming traffic, a line of ~10 cars waiting to turn right Cars coming from both directions had to brake, and a postal vehicle had to pull to the shoulder. As I stood and watched, shoving my 25-mile snack into my face, I said out loud to no one in particular, "Look at these f---ing idiots."

Yes, they were all kitted out, and yes, they were all on carbon this or that. But none of that matters to me. Only their stupid behavior does. I waited about 30 seconds and crossed the road without issue. So without regard to what your pedals are moving, if you behave like a semi-responsible human, it's all good.

Papa Tom

Excellent point, doc. That's a whole other discussion, though. I am 100% guilty of absolutely turning my nose up at cyclists who blow red lights and ride like fools. In my book, those riders deserve the attitude they get from the rest of us. But people who are just trying to enjoy themselves on any set of wheels in any situation? C'mon!!!

noglider 

@Papa Tom, I've stolen that line from you.

no motor?

The skill of the rider was something valued when I was a biker, and an accomplished rider on a not so nice bike was appreciated more than the poser on some bike he couldn't ride or the overpriced cruisers made of bar hopping.

Kedosto

I'm torn.

While I'm happy to embrace any new technology that would increase the acceptance and participation of an activity I already enjoy, I'm worried by what I'm seeing so early in its adoption.

I see people riding e-bikes in the most rude, aggressive, and overall unsafe manner on both city streets and shared pathways. There are two particular riders I cross paths with during my home bound commute that routinely ride much too fast for conditions. I've witnessed startled pedestrians having to jump out of the way and had more than a few close calls myself. In fact, the last time I crossed paths with an e-bike rider I shouted for him to slow down because I recognized him from a previous encounter. He went by so fast I doubt he even heard me.

I'd like to think that any regulations regarding the use of e-bikes will recognize the difference between e-bikes and regular human powered bicycles, but who knows?


-Kedosto