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Good Article About Judgement & Snobbishness Among Cyclists

Old 01-05-16, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
I have no problems with e-bikes as long as they respect the other users of MUPs and bike lanes. As long as someone chooses an e-bike, he or she is not in a car. But if the e-bike user must go as fast as it allows, say over 15km/hr, then ride with motorized traffic.

I would also add if a non-power-assisted cyclist is planning to maintain 15km/hr or higher, he or she should get off the MUPs for respect and consideration of pedestrians there.
15 kph is 9.32057 mph. The speed limit on MUPs is generally 15 mph around here, not that anyone actually follows it. In a car, the police generally don't ticket you until you are 10+ mph over the speed limit, so applying the same standard to bikes, you should be able to ride at 24 mph without fear of getting stopped. Of course, that would require someone to enforce it. Also, unless you have a speedometer, how do you know your speed? My rule is ride safely, regardless of the law.
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Old 01-05-16, 02:52 PM
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Here's my take on ebikes: "I would love it if someone that I enjoyed riding with didn't have the physical capability or fitness ..." I'm sure I am not the only one here who started off riding with less than optimal fitness. 10-15 miles was a long ride for me. What happened? I kept pedaling and got more fit. If someone has a legitimate handicap that makes pedaling hard to do, sure - get yourself some assistance. If, however, someone just doesn't want to put in the effort to get fit (which is really part of what cycling is about, right? Exercise?), then why even bother?

I can understand @rideinTheRain or other commuters using an ebike, especially as they might be riding 5 days a week and may not have shower facilities at work and want to limit sweat (and seeing as RITR has an actual bicycle they ride as well), but if someone is riding recreationally, they should be enjoying the gains of increasing fitness. Hills are good for the soul. Especially soul crushing hills.

I used to sail back in the day, even taught it at a summer camp doing Sunfish and Hobie Cats. Then when I was in the USCGA, I spent a glorious week sailing on the Coast Guard's tallship, The Eagle. One of the best weeks of my life. Now that's​ sailing
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Old 01-05-16, 02:53 PM
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Here's my take on ebikes: "I would love it if someone that I enjoyed riding with didn't have the physical capability or fitness ..." I'm sure I am not the only one here who started off riding with less than optimal fitness. 10-15 miles was a long ride for me. What happened? I kept pedaling and got more fit. If someone has a legitimate handicap that makes pedaling hard to do, sure - get yourself some assistance. If, however, someone just doesn't want to put in the effort to get fit (which is really part of what cycling is about, right? Exercise?), then why even bother?

I can understand @InTheRain or other commuters using an ebike, especially as they might be riding 5 days a week and may not have shower facilities at work and want to limit sweat (and seeing as ITR has an actual bicycle they ride as well), but if someone is riding recreationally, they should be enjoying the gains of increasing fitness. Hills are good for the soul. Especially soul crushing hills.

I used to sail back in the day, even taught it at a summer camp doing Sunfish and Hobie Cats. Then when I was in the USCGA, I spent a glorious week sailing on the Coast Guard's tallship, The Eagle. One of the best weeks of my life. Now that's sailing
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Old 01-05-16, 03:52 PM
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Jumping in late and I just skimmed the posts...forgive me if I'm saying too much that's redundant.

1. Internet forums (regardless of topic) skew very heavily toward pissing contests. I wouldn't judge the cycling community (mythical beast that it is) by what takes place online. Internet forums are practically made for bickering. I live in an unfashionable suburb of a city that is renowned for its smugness, and I've never seen the kind of judgmentalism that is claimed to exist among cyclists. In fact, my experience has been quite the opposite. You can show up at a local CX race with an 80's mountain bike you dug out of the dumpster and guys getting ready to ride carbon wonderbikes in their sponsors' skinsuits will offer you a beer. If you show up at a group ride on an old cruiser and wearing sweatpants the regulars might grumble because they expect you to disrupt the group dynamic, but if you're able to keep up I bet you'd win them over.

2. My complaint about department store bikes is that they are (I think) the top sellers among bicycles in the U.S. and so they necessarily dominate most non-cyclists and many new cyclists impressions of what a bicycle is. I won't judge anyone for riding a department store bike, but I will discourage anyone who asks from buying one because I think that a better bike (used) can be had for the same or even less money. The existence of these bikes saddens me because I think they are more often a barrier to people enjoying bicycling than they are a stepping stone. And since we're on the commuting forum I'll add that it frustrates me that department store bikes dominate the general impression people have as to how much a new bicycle should cost. People who wouldn't buy a $1000 car because they perceive them to be junk balk at spending $400 on a bike that they intend to use for daily transportation just because they think bikes shouldn't cost that much. I think the same sort of psychology is at work here that makes me hesitate to spend $5 on a loaf of locally made bread that will provide breakfast for two weeks (because I think bread should cost about $1 a loaf).

3. My complaint about e-bikes, and it's only a marginal complaint, is that I'm afraid they might prevent people from discovering what they are actually capable of. When I first decided I wanted to bike to work I was at the end of two decades spent engaging in almost no physical activity more strenuous than walking from the couch to the car. I bought a bike and went out for a trial run, made it less than a mile before I turned around to come home and had to fall off my bike because my legs were so sore. But I stuck with it and within two years I had done my first 100 mile one day ride. So I'm ambivalent about e-bikes. I love the idea that they might give people who would be doing nothing the confidence to get out and start riding. On the other hand, I think the percentage of people who are genuinely not physically capable of riding a bike for 5-10 miles a day is very, very low. That said, the only time I experience negative emotions about people on e-bikes is when somebody riding one drops me as I try to keep up with them going up a hill and I don't realize until later that they were on an e-bike. Even this is a blessing in disguise because it lets me tell myself that people who drop me on hills were riding e-bikes whether they really were or not. But if someone just wants an easy ride to work and doesn't want that to be their exercise for the day, let them buy an e-bike. That's a great usage model, and I think that's the European model referred to in the article.

4. Elitism aside, I think there is some practical benefit in being able to recognize whether or not someone belongs to an abstract social group of which I perceive myself to be a member. I like to ride bikes for fun, exercise and athletic challenge. While I recognize that the sort of person I see riding a craigslist beater to the store wearing blue jeans and a flannel jacket is by any reasonable definition a cyclist, I also recognize that this is probably not a person who is going to share my enthusiasm for the aspects of cycling that I enjoy. If I express the opinion that this person is likely not part of my social group, that is a conclusion based on experience and observation and is not in any way meant as a judgement of that person and his/her use of a bicycle.
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Old 01-05-16, 04:20 PM
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They are called MUPs. MULTI use paths. Not dog walk paths. Not baby stroller paths. Going 10 mph on a bike is just as stupid as 20 or 25 in a car. Conflict is purely imaginary IMO. When you pass, just ring your bell. Peds will NOT complain. We have a multi sidewalk on a steel bridge where commuters regularly go 18 mph. 3 bikes wide is a tight fit.

I actually have an ex-friend who tried to get 30 km for his entire neighborhood. NIMBY loving City hall caved in to set 40 km in several places.

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Old 01-05-16, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
Jumping in late and I just skimmed the posts...forgive me if I'm saying too much that's redundant....

4. Elitism aside, I think there is some practical benefit in being able to recognize whether or not someone belongs to an abstract social group of which I perceive myself to be a member. I like to ride bikes for fun, exercise and athletic challenge. While I recognize that the sort of person I see riding a craigslist beater to the store wearing blue jeans and a flannel jacket is by any reasonable definition a cyclist, I also recognize that this is probably not a person who is going to share my enthusiasm for the aspects of cycling that I enjoy. If I express the opinion that this person is likely not part of my social group, that is a conclusion based on experience and observation and is not in any way meant as a judgement of that person and his/her use of a bicycle.
Nicely written reply @Andy_K, especially part #4 . I have tried to follow this thread throughout, and I replied in a seemingly similar fashion on post #9:

Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
This summer was a thread on the Fifty-Plus Forum, “Bike Riding vs Cycling” with 105 replies, that IMO was a good discussion of the topic as in the article, and subject of this thread:

Originally Posted by Viking55803
Riding a bike seems to be more about getting from here to there, while cycling seems to be about being on the bike. It doesn't really matter where I go, how far I go, or how long it takes me as it does about the experience itself. Of course, the cliche' comes to mind: it's not about the destination, but he journey, but sometimes cliche's are apt, and I think cycling embodies that in a way few other activities do…

Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
… So in considering your post, my first thought was I think I see the distinction you are drawing, but then thought it seems to hint a bit of elitism…I am a real cyclist; the others are just riding their bikes, though I presume that was not the intent…

…I'll leave the roadie vs Fred distinction for my previous ”Fred Manifesto".
Sometime after that thread ended, I thought about this seemingly trivial distinction that makes me think a rider is a “real" cyclist. I watch the way they pedal. Without being judgemental about it, a cyclist has a fluid rotary pedaling motion, whereas I think “bike rider” when I see someone pedaling in a piston-like fashion. Now since pedaling is the foundation of bike riding, I think that style and form makes the distinction. Of course then, while an E-bike rider is a “bike rider” they are not cyclists. No moral or “snobbish” judgement here, but a more "objective" one, IMO, FWIW.

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Old 01-05-16, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
Jumping in late and I just skimmed the posts......
4. Elitism aside, I think there is some practical benefit in being able to recognize whether or not someone belongs to an abstract social group of which I perceive myself to be a member. I like to ride bikes for fun, exercise and athletic challenge. While I recognize that the sort of person I see riding a craigslist beater to the store wearing blue jeans and a flannel jacket is by any reasonable definition a cyclist, I also recognize that this is probably not a person who is going to share my enthusiasm for the aspects of cycling that I enjoy. If I express the opinion that this person is likely not part of my social group, that is a conclusion based on experience and observation and is not in any way meant as a judgement of that person and his/her use of a bicycle.
It seems like you're judging the guy to not be enthusiastic about riding for fun, exercise and athletic challenge. Maybe peer pressure would prevent a cyclist from riding a beater to the store while wearing blue jeans, but I can't think of any other reason not to do that, even someone who shares your enthusiasms.

I'm just wondering if it came across differently than you meant it, since this part contrasts so much with your first three points, which I felt were very thoughtful.
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Old 01-05-16, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
It seems like you're judging the guy to not be enthusiastic about riding for fun, exercise and athletic challenge. Maybe peer pressure would prevent a cyclist from riding a beater to the store while wearing blue jeans, but I can't think of any other reason not to do that, even someone who shares your enthusiasms.

I'm just wondering if it came across differently than you meant it, since this part contrasts so much with your first three points, which I felt were very thoughtful.
Well, you may be right. I'm obviously generalizing and assigning the hypothetical other person to a category that may be an incomplete description of his/her interests. The thing is, in the real world I would only use this perception of the person to decide that I shouldn't try to strike up a conversation about how sweet the Bianchi Specialissima is or something of the sort. If the other person brings a topic like that up with me, I'd just be pleasantly surprised.

It's a simple fact that most (arguably all) human understanding is based on creating abstract mental models (often involving categories) and tentatively placing things we see into those models. Happily, most of us are able to revise our models based on additional information.

So I don't think your reading of what I wrote was entirely inaccurate. I would in some sense be "judging the guy to not be enthusiastic about riding for fun, exercise and athletic challenge" but I didn't intend it as a value judgment...just a preliminary guess at characteristics that I couldn't directly perceive. I do think you're right to call me on it because the only things keeping me from riding to the store looking like that are the monster hill between me and the nearest store and the fact that I sold my craigslist beater a couple of years ago.

I guess my point was that I don't see making a distinction between someone who uses a bicycle for purely practical reasons and someone who rides a bicycle for sport necessarily involves elitism. These are two objectively different activities. The same person may do both, but seeing a person do one provides no real evidence that the person is likely to also do the other.
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Old 01-05-16, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bmthom.gis

I used to sail back in the day, even taught it at a summer camp doing Sunfish and Hobie Cats. Then when I was in the USCGA, I spent a glorious week sailing on the Coast Guard's tallship, The Eagle. One of the best weeks of my life. Now that's sailing
Jealous.

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Old 01-05-16, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
Jealous.

When I completed the prior service orientation (boot camp for those who served in another service) we got to choose our billet, there were several openings available, nobody went for it. The hot ticket was the polar icebreakers.
Having done a season of commercial fishing in Alaska prior to enlisting, I played it safe and opted for a small boat station.


Silly me, I didn't appreciate what it would be like to go out in a 44' motor lifeboat during a hurricane.

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Old 01-06-16, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
When I completed the prior service orientation (boot camp for those who served in another service) we got to choose our billet, there were several openings available, nobody went for it. The hot ticket was the polar icebreakers.
Having done a season of commercial fishing in Alaska prior to enlisting, I played it safe and opted for a small boat station.


Silly me, I didn't appreciate what it would be like to go out in a 44' motor lifeboat during a hurricane.

Icebreakers are always a pretty hot billet. I left the CGA and enlisted in the reserve while in a college and had a good 6 years at a small boat station. The 47 for MLB was a lot of fun...when it was working
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Old 01-06-16, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tjspiel
Jealous.

Nothing like climbing up to the main royal to watch the sunset. Bunk space was super tight, though
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Old 01-06-16, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by alan s
15 kph is 9.32057 mph. The speed limit on MUPs is generally 15 mph around here, not that anyone actually follows it…My rule is ride safely, regardless of the law.
I’m not writing the law here. It was conceptual taking into consideration the consideration of others which is so lacking these days. Lack of consideration is how the bicycle movement got a lot of bicycle infrastructure. Lack of consideration is how a lot of North American cities now have by-laws restricting smoking in the workplace and other public places.

You can nitpick about 15km/hr, 15mph or whatever speed you choose, but let’s have one that keep pedestrians on MUPs feeling ok with cyclists. Just because MUPs are multi-use doesn’t mean motorists can drive on them either. Riding 15km/hr on a MUP is in no-way like driving 20mph in traffic. If you definitely have to ride at 24mph or 40km/hr, then do that in traffic. Just because you can doesn’t necessarily mean you should. How do traffic collisions happen anyways?

So if e-bikes are to use MUPs, I have no problem. But let’s take into consideration the safety and enjoyment of others on those same MUPs who may not have the same level of risk tolerance you have.
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Old 01-06-16, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
I’m not writing the law here. It was conceptual taking into consideration the consideration of others which is so lacking these days. Lack of consideration is how the bicycle movement got a lot of bicycle infrastructure...

You can nitpick about 15km/hr, 15mph or whatever speed you choose, but let’s have one that keep pedestrians on MUPs feeling ok with cyclists....

So if e-bikes are to use MUPs, I have no problem. But let’s take into consideration the safety and enjoyment of others on those same MUPs who may not have the same level of risk tolerance you have.
My Golden Rule of Cycling is ”Do unto the pedestrians, as you would have the motorists do unto you.”

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Old 01-06-16, 09:34 AM
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An event like the STP I really don't care what kind of a bike is ridden or if a cyclist wants to hang on to a car, or draft another cyclist or paceline (which I have done and the STP literature encourages riders to learn how to do it safely.) It's not a race. There are no prizes. Yes, you get a t-shirt/jacket... you pay for it and it shows up in your mailbox a few days before the ride.


An e-bike rider is going to have to have his own support and extra batteries to complete a ride like the STP. For an e-bike like mine, to ride on full assist (no throttle... don't have one) for 200 miles, I would need 7-8 batteries. On level one assist (which is actually more difficult than riding my carbon fiber bike) I would need about 4 batteries. The batteries are $1200 each. It's not an option that I would even consider in a distance event like the STP. However, if someone chooses to do something like that, I still think they have accomplished an amazing thing. Even if they full-throttle an e-bike (20 mph is the limit) that means they are going to be sitting on a bicycle saddle for a minimum of 10 hours. If it is legally classified as a bicycle, and those types of bicycles are not excluded from an event... nobody should judge or care. If you complete a distance event on your carbon fiber sub 15 lbs bike and you draft in a paceline, should the guy that rode solo on his Walmart bike with nobby tires disapprove of your "accomplishment?"
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Old 01-06-16, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
So if e-bikes are to use MUPs, I have no problem. But let’s take into consideration the safety and enjoyment of others on those same MUPs who may not have the same level of risk tolerance you have.
I'm not sure why you would single out e-bikes. There are way more people riding non e-bikes, walking, jogging/running, dog-walking, riding skateboards, and rollerskating on MUP's that are doing so unsafely than those on e-bikes. Based on percentages that I have seen on the MUP that I use... e-bikes would be the last users you would worry about. In fact, In 8 years of commuting on the MUP I have only seen an e-bike other than mine, one time - and it was being operated safely.

I think there is a huge misconception out there about e-bike riders. Most people seem to believe that the e-bike is the first bicycle ever ridden by an e-biker. I'm pretty sure that nearly every e-bike rider has ridden a regular bicycle before he/she ever climbed on an e-bike. Not only that, most e-bike riders have probably been riding regular bikes for a long, long time. Before I ever climbed on an e-bike I had already been riding a touring bike and road bike 5000+ miles every year for the prior seven years. I continue to ride my road bike for several thousand miles every year even though I commute on my e-bike. So, I'm well aware of bicycle etiquette and safety on an MUP. I'd dare say that I use my commuting MUP more than 95 percent of the people that use it during the year. So really, when I'm on the MUP... believe me - it's me tolerating the risky and unsafe behavior displayed by the other types of users... not those on an e-bike.
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Old 01-06-16, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by InTheRain
I'm not sure why you would single out e-bikes.....

There were earlier posting in this thread about e-bikes. So I just put in my opinion about those. That's all.
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Old 01-06-16, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by InTheRain
An event like the STP I really don't care what kind of a bike is ridden or if a cyclist wants to hang on to a car, or draft another cyclist or paceline (which I have done and the STP literature encourages riders to learn how to do it safely.) It's not a race. There are no prizes. Yes, you get a t-shirt/jacket... you pay for it and it shows up in your mailbox a few days before the ride.
Don't you also get a patch if you complete it in a single day? Agree that it's not a race but there is a recognition that is an accomplishment, - even more so if you complete it in a day. It's not just a "ride".


Originally Posted by InTheRain
An e-bike rider is going to have to have his own support and extra batteries to complete a ride like the STP. For an e-bike like mine, to ride on full assist (no throttle... don't have one) for 200 miles, I would need 7-8 batteries. On level one assist (which is actually more difficult than riding my carbon fiber bike) I would need about 4 batteries. The batteries are $1200 each. It's not an option that I would even consider in a distance event like the STP. However, if someone chooses to do something like that, I still think they have accomplished an amazing thing. Even if they full-throttle an e-bike (20 mph is the limit) that means they are going to be sitting on a bicycle saddle for a minimum of 10 hours. If it is legally classified as a bicycle, and those types of bicycles are not excluded from an event... nobody should judge or care. If you complete a distance event on your carbon fiber sub 15 lbs bike and you draft in a paceline, should the guy that rode solo on his Walmart bike with nobby tires disapprove of your "accomplishment?"
I am glad to hear that battery technology has not yet made it practical to complete STP on an e-bike. As far as how a guy on a Walmart MTB should feel towards guys with $10,000 bikes riding in a pace line, well, that's up to him (or her). I think they can feel very good about their own accomplishment. The guys in the paceline may do it in a single day which is also an accomplishment. They make take longer than the MTB dude, which is not as impressive, all else being equal.

Nobody should be rude or condescending to anyone, but to pretend there isn't any judgement going on (good or bad) is just naive. It doesn't matter whether it's e-bikes or CF wonders. Personally, there are certain things I find impressive and other things less so.

What the MTB dude and the CF dudes have in common is that they complete the distance under their own power. At some point the application of technology or technique crosses a line and turns the event into something else. For me it's when you put a motor on a bike. I understand that it some cases they are still legally classified as bikes but that doesn't mean they are appropriate for use in any cycling event.

You may not care if someone completes STP by spending the middle 100 miles riding in a car. After all riding 100 miles isn't easy either and they still get their shirt. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it or call them out, but I think that's cheating. Other people can have different opinions. That's fine. I'm not likely to change mine.

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Old 01-06-16, 11:35 AM
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It seems that some of us believe that adding external, non-human power to the system by means of an electric motor is functionally equivalent to increased efficiency through lighter or more aerodynamic but fully human-powered bikes. Is that a fair statement?
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Old 01-06-16, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by caloso
It seems that some of us believe that adding external, non-human power to the system by means of an electric motor is functionally equivalent to increased efficiency through lighter or more aerodynamic but fully human-powered bikes. Is that a fair statement?
concise and logical questions are not welcome here.
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Old 01-06-16, 12:11 PM
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I don't really think anybody is for allowing E-Bikes into official competitive/endurance rides, at least I'm not. There IS a difference riding assisted or riding without assistance... Where will it stop? As actually there are E-Bikes out there that can do 150Miles on 1 charge without pedaling so with a little pedaling I'm sure it can do 200Miles no problem, and you can charge it up with a solar panel that folds up into a back pack.. All you need it the $$$.
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Old 01-06-16, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso
It seems that some of us believe that adding external, non-human power to the system by means of an electric motor is functionally equivalent to increased efficiency through lighter or more aerodynamic but fully human-powered bikes. Is that a fair statement?
There's no beliefs involved, its a simple truth. It's relevance is determined by ones perspective.
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Old 01-06-16, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by InTheRain
I'm not sure why you would single out e-bikes. There are way more people riding non e-bikes, walking, jogging/running, dog-walking, riding skateboards, and rollerskating on MUP's that are doing so unsafely than those on e-bikes. Based on percentages that I have seen on the MUP that I use... e-bikes would be the last users you would worry about. In fact, In 8 years of commuting on the MUP I have only seen an e-bike other than mine, one time - and it was being operated safely.

I think there is a huge misconception out there about e-bike riders. Most people seem to believe that the e-bike is the first bicycle ever ridden by an e-biker. I'm pretty sure that nearly every e-bike rider has ridden a regular bicycle before he/she ever climbed on an e-bike. Not only that, most e-bike riders have probably been riding regular bikes for a long, long time. Before I ever climbed on an e-bike I had already been riding a touring bike and road bike 5000+ miles every year for the prior seven years. I continue to ride my road bike for several thousand miles every year even though I commute on my e-bike. So, I'm well aware of bicycle etiquette and safety on an MUP. I'd dare say that I use my commuting MUP more than 95 percent of the people that use it during the year. So really, when I'm on the MUP... believe me - it's me tolerating the risky and unsafe behavior displayed by the other types of users... not those on an e-bike.
exactly.
ebikes are great for cycling. They bring in new riders and advocates for cycling transportation and infrastructure. Ebikes are an important development for commuting and daily workhorse transportation, as well as for recreation.
Many people don't want to see bikes for recreation, just as many don't see cars for sport. They are a vehicular tool for transportation.
ebikes open up the cycling world for many who would otherwise not ride bikes.

And I totally agree, the MUP drama is completely fabricated. Never have I seen a problem with ebikes on the mups. never.
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Old 01-06-16, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso
It seems that some of us believe that adding external, non-human power to the system by means of an electric motor is functionally equivalent to increased efficiency through lighter or more aerodynamic but fully human-powered bikes. Is that a fair statement?
Your bike is going to have to be unimaginably aerodynamic to be functionally equivalent to the 150-500 watts you can get from an electric assist, but why should anyone care? I blame Strava for the whole question.
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Old 01-06-16, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
Your bike is going to have to be unimaginably aerodynamic to be functionally equivalent to the 150-500 watts you can get from an electric assist, but why should anyone care? I blame Strava for the whole question.
Exactly. And as you say, ride what you like, it's no skin off my nose unless you've pinned on a number.
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