Jaywalk3r

I've heard people using the limitations inherent to the bikes widely available on the US market as (often valid) reasons why they don't ride. They can't ride in their work clothes, they can't carry enough, the bikes look uncomfortable, bikes need too much maintenance, etc. They're valid concerns.

Or, looked at from a slightly different perspective: Do you actually believe that the bicycle modal share would be as high in Amsterdam and Copenhagen if they only had access to the recreational bikes that are readily available to the US market? Not a chance.

Andy_K 

...acknowledging that I'm probably going to regret getting involved in this...

I "have access" to a very wide variety of bikes. Living near Portland, my access is probably greater than that of most people in the U.S. I could run out tonight and buy a bakfiets if I wanted to, for instance.

The primary reason I don't do that is that I live 10 miles from work and near the top of a really steep hill. If I bought a bike that's designed to carry a lot of stuff and get me to work without fouling my work clothes, it would take me around two hours to get there, and I find that unacceptable. I could probably get there quicker, but not without breaking a mighty sweat.

The situation is different for a lot of people living in Portland near their place of employment, and a few of them use Dutch style bikes. Even more use old beat up bike boom era bikes. The utility bikes are pretty expensive and most people can't seem to get over the idea that bikes should cost about $100 even if they're willing to pay $3000 for an unreliable car. But what I'm saying is that these bikes are available and people don't buy them, which is why the availability doesn't grow (or at least is growing slowly).

I haven't followed the whole discussion here, and I'm not even sure what type of bike you are advocating for, but I think for most people a 1970's Schwinn with a milk crate strapped on a rear rack provides all the utility and comfort they need. The reason that the American bike market is dominated by other sorts of bikes is that corporations can't make money selling 1970's Schwinns, so they need to differentiate and persuade people that the differentiation has value.

Jaywalk3r

You'll find, if you look upthread, that I said adoption will be slow, not rapid. But they will be adopted. That you're seeing them in noticeable numbers is quite promising, and consistent with what I've been saying.

Consider the first iPod. It took almost two years before Apple sold 1 million units. Within two more years, Apple were selling millions of units per quarter. It took consumers awhile to realize that they wanted one. The first iPhone sold four times as many units in its second quarter than its first. Similarly, Amazon started with the expectation of losing money for several years. They knew that it would take a long time before people widely adopted online shopping. FedEx, ESPN, and Tesla Motors all existed for quite a while before they became profitable. Sometimes a product has to be available for some time before demand even justifies its existence.

Expanding bicycle modal share is the same. We would expect the Dutch bikes to primarily sell to new commuters who are willing to buy a new bike. That's not a very large group, but it is only the proportion of that subset that interests us in terms of the success of the adoption of Dutch style city bikes in Portland. That you're seeing them on the roads is a very positive sign. After those bikes have been easily accessible for ten years, and you're still just seeing a few, then one might argue that the market isn't interested. But as long as Portland continues investing in infrastructure, I doubt that's how it turns out. Adoption will be slow, but I expect you'll see more and more of them on the roads. It'll take time. It involves selling a drastic change in lifestyle.

Andy_K 

I understand what you're saying, and you definitely have a point, but the first bakfiets dealer appeared in Portland nine years ago and these are still looked on as kind of an odd niche bike. In fact, I think it's possible that Portland is a counter-productive location for trying to establish a beachhead because Portlanders are generally known for doing odd things with bikes that are intentionally outside of mainstream culture.

Plus, like I said, I'm not convinced that a $3000 bakfiets offers much to the average city dweller that a $100 Schwinn and a milk crate don't also offer.

Jaywalk3r

Have bakfiets and Dutch style city bikes become more popular in that time? I understand that Portland has also invested substantially in infrastructure in recent years. How many years back did that growth really take off? As I said here, I think it's a positive feedback loop with utility bikes and infrastructure both involved.

I-Like-To-Bike

$3000 bakfiets probably offer less to the average city dweller than any other kind of bike in terms of ease of use such as storing/parking indoors for any place without ground floor entry or a garage. Leaving $3000 bikes outdoors overnight, let alone for any extended period of time, is probably a no-go in almost any U.S.city. Carrying up steps or transport in any car - fuggedaboutit.

Gresp15C

I appreciate your perspective, even if it differs from mine. I tend to think of classifications like "city" or "utility" on a sliding scale, not as some sort of absolute. I also don't care what anything was designed for. Just as you talk about using a utility vehicle for recreational purposes (the AM General HMMWV or the Hagglunds BV206 for instance), folks use recreational bikes for utility purposes, both within reason.

It's all good.

wphamilton

The question I get frequently, and the most frequent concern I hear, is about riding with traffic and that relates in part to infrastructure. Even when I've been interviewed for local bike-to-work pieces that question always comes up prominently. So regardless of how we, as experienced bike commuters, may feel about cycling infrastructure it's on peoples' minds when they imagine trying it.

The evidence from cities that have improved infrastructure shows that it does increase biking modal share. Granted that a large increase of a very small share is still small, but it does start that positive feedback loop.

The other big question is "how far". I don't see it as the biggest concern since people tend to use it as a opening question to start up a conversation. When asking how far, more often than not they really want to know how long does it take.

The only time people ask me about bikes is when they're seriously considering attempting it. Usually, after getting some specifics, the answer is they don't really need anything special.

Gresp15C

Same here. Because bike commuting is still relatively uncommon, it's a conversation topic. Folks see my bike, or my helmet, and like to chat about it. The questions that people ask reveal their concerns:

1. How far do you ride?

2. How do you avoid traffic and intersections?

Oddly enough, weather doesn't come up. I think folks simply assume that they will drive to if it's too hot, cold, or wet. The Midwest has much more extreme weather than the major cities of northern Europe. My locale gets about 30 °F colder, and 10 °F hotter, than Amsterdam. I'm not making excuses for people, but just documenting what reality looks like. Even as a fairly dedicated cyclist, it took me a few years before I was comfortable riding to work at -15 °F.

I live in a town that has seen a steady increase in bike commuting, and we have been developing our bike infrastructure. But I think in addition to cyclists and infrastructure, a third thing has happened, which you could call Gentrification: People are developing housing, and moving into neighborhoods that are regarded as bike- and pedestrian-friendly, and that happen to be closer to the major hubs of employment such as the state government, university, and hospitals. Distance remains a factor, but people are shortening their distance.

In this climate, I think it has to be assumed that people will seek an alternative when the weather is unsuitable (real or perceived) for riding. So we should encourage compromises where the alternative is something other than driving a car, such as walking and/or using transit. My spouse hangs up her bike when it gets icy, and hops on the bus. The bus ride takes longer, and costs money, but she avoids having to pay for parking at her workplace.

A separate topic: Weight. Folks seem to assume that concerns about weight, efficiency, and comfort, are either 1) admissions of weakness, to be attacked; or, 2) misappropriations of racing technology. But people have tried to make things lighter and more efficient, without sacrificing durability, since the dawn of civilization. We borrow from advances in racing and military technology, because those are areas where there is more money to spend on cutting edge R&D. And when a new technology becomes widespread, folks look on the old technology as gratuitous or nostalgic. And the older technologies always have their adherents, who have reasons why the new gear is unacceptable. These things aren't unique to cycling.

I know that I would object to the weight, riding posture, or styling, of the "Dutch" bike -- at least as it's promoted in the US -- but I realize that those things are all non-essential features that could be engineered away without sacrificing utility for my purposes. So I don't worry about it.

ThermionicScott 

Lots of good points. And when it comes to bad weather, I don't know if that's a problem that really needs to be solved completely up-front. If people just want to bike on the nice days, and leave driving as an option on rainy or cold days, why not? My bike-commuting can remain a fun option that I choose more often than not, and not a chore, because that's how I've framed it for myself.

When people really get the bug to ride instead of driving to work or the grocery store, they'll start stretching their comfort zone gradually. In the larger picture, these things are always a journey.

Gresp15C

Absolutely. I treat fair-weather cycling for any purpose, any distance, any bike, as the gateway drug.

GovernorSilver

Lots of riders in my area, but when someone finds out that I bike commute, the first question is always "How far do you ride?" too.

I've never had anybody ask me if a particular type of bike is needed to commute.

If someone says "I can't do that (bike commute)", it's always because he/she feels it's too far - eg. Laurel MD to DC (20 miles). I ride 13 miles each way myself, which I guess is nothing to veteran century riders and the like, but there doesn't seem to be that many people that would commute even 10 miles.

It's never because "I can't find a proper Dutch bike".

With the Metro's impending SafeTrack program, which involves lots of single-tracking and shutdowns of segments of Metro lines, there does seem to be more people looking into some kind of mixed modal solution. I have a coworker who lives near Baltimore that is considering doing just that, using a bike and the MARC train.

Jaywalk3r

Nor is that what was suggested.

GovernorSilver

Twas in jest.

Though never hearing anyone say that - that part is true.

PaulH

It all about convenience for me. I want to be able to get on the thing and use it with no particular preparation onter than other than rain or cold gear. Cars stopped having exposed chains to rip and soil clothing back in the 1910s. All cars had generators by the 1920s. I started riding to work because it was more convenient than driving. Life became a lot better for me when I found a German utility bike -- lots of nasty little tasks eliminated.

I have nothing against Lycra except that changing clothing is a hassle, as is playing Boy Mechanic and having to charge up batteries at night. A key reason why driving became popular is that manufacturers started making cars easier to use.

PaulH

You are far kinder toward industrial designers than I.

Gresp15C

I appreciate the convenience factor. For me, it's getting the bike out of the garage. I'm contemplating sinking a heavy ring bolt or chain into the ground next to my driveway, so I can keep a bike out there permanently, even just a crummy beater for taking to the store. My driveway goes below grade level, so you'd have to be pretty sharp to even notice a bike there when you go by.

Something that helps me with the convenience thing, is getting everything prepped the night before.

alan s 

WTH is a bakfiets? My spellchecker doesn't even recognize it as a word.

Gresp15C

Do a Google image search on alternate spelling, "baekfiets." It's a class of cargo bike, originating in the Netherlands.

PaulH

If I had to prep anything the night before, I'd go back to driving to work.

I-Like-To-Bike

The most vehement objections to considering getting on a bike again for any reason that I have heard from adults came from people who got burned/disgusted by the so-called 10 speed racer bikes of the 70's and never got over how brutal those bikes were to anyone used to or expecting a comfortable riding bike and who never looked at another bike in their life.

Many times I have been queried/told by older people (my age) who upon learning that I bike commute who ask in some form or another: You don't ride one those bent over the handlebar skinny tire bikes do you? I had one and I hated it.

tjspiel

They'd never ridden any other type of bike before they got on that 70's road bike and then they were disgusted for life?

Sorry, I just don't buy that. Road bikes were *the* bike to have in the US for a relatively short period of time. The boomers who bought them grew up riding something other than a road bike and had some basis for comparison.

I'm not surprised that some people don't like road bikes just like there are lots of people who won't like a certain type of vehicle. And I'd hazard to guess that most people who are vehemently opposed to getting on a bike could give you all sorts of reasons, but what it comes down to is that they're just not interested.

I-Like-To-Bike

Most likely they enjoyed riding relatively fat tire one speeds or three speeds prior to the 70's as kids and "upgraded" (or their parents upgraded) to the the highly touted super duper ten speed racers and were expecting great things, like easier riding. But never could adjust to the discomfort/awkwardness of the riding position and brutal ride. And yes they never looked back at riding a bike as an enjoyable endeavor.
That relatively "short period of time" when 10 speed racers were about the only bike promoted in the U.S. was about the ten years preceding the introduction of the mountain bike, which in comparison to the 10 speed racer (AKA "road bike") was a dream ride and maintained the positive aspect of multiple gears.

You may not believe it but I have heard the complaining about how awful bike riding is from numerous people who were turned off bicycling for any purpose by their 70's "10 speed racer" experience.

I can't imagine any bicycle sales outlet or the bicycle industry, except for a few high zoot, high priced competition oriented stores, surviving today if all they promoted was dropped handlebars, high pressure narrow tire bikes with ass-hatchet saddles; that was the U.S. bicycle market in the 70's.

GamblerGORD53

Well I'm certainly one of those who hated drops from first sight. I never got around the block with them. They ARE that horrible. Better hand positions my eye. pfffft. Worse back positions is more the case. Only broom handles are worse. Even racers seldom use the grips.
In 1974 I bought a 5 speed I thought was good enough. So wrong about the gears that didn't even match a SA 3. But the 70d swept back bars are heaven to use and are now on my tour bike. The nice smooth vinyl grips are as good as new.

As for commuter bike trends here, city bikes with/ without IGH are increasingly the trend away from awful fugly MTBs. YEAAAY Many are Alfine 8s. Cruisers are in vogue for many newbies including school kids, with/ without deraillers. I agree that what bike is the last thing newbie commuters worry about. Travel time vs other modes, convenience vs parking and joining the crowd are what gets the ball rolling. Just last Friday here at 4:45, the commuter route over a high bridge was fuller than ever.

ILTB is quite right about bike types and BS trends of such. The new fangled terms like Gravel bike = WTF marketing stupidness gone wild. Old Raleigh Sports were such. I certainly lamented the demise of the ordinary bike to MTBs.