acidfast7

I was thinking more like this, at least when I lived in Stockholm to get to work at the University (this is 0C/32F)

Jaywalk3r

No, they're not exactly mutually exclusive, but most commuters I've met fall into one or the other category. Only a few straddle them.

There's no reason someone in the first group would not enjoy the ride. But their primary goal is to get where they're going. They have no desire to wear special clothes to get there; they want to be able to wear the same clothing they'll work in. They're not exerting so much effort that they're drenched in sweat when they arrive. They're more concerned about being able to easily make, and act upon, a last minute decision to stop off for groceries on the way home than they are about having a lightweight bicycle. They're riding their bike because they're going to work, and it's a practical way to get there. They don't ride to work just to be able to ride their bike.

The latter group is much more likely to be riding recreational bike, with minimal modifications to make it feasible, though not necessarily practical, to ride to work. They're much more likely to change into a lycra outfit for their ride to and from work. They're much more likely to extend a 5-10 mile ride into or from work into a 20-40 mile ride. They're much more likely to ride hard and fast, pushing themselves, during their rides to or from work. Going to work is an excuse they use to go for a bike ride. If they had the day off, they'd likely still be going for a bike ride, probably just longer.

acidfast7

i correct my initial statement ... i guess as one would see in Canada as the "pacelines" comment was posted from someone residing in Toronto.

i apologise for any confusion caused.

we can return to making fun of Europe (which I may not live within for much longer).

alan s 

The only difference I see in your scheme is that one group wants to ride fast and doesn't mind sweating a bit and getting a workout, and the other group wants to put as little effort into biking as possible. Rather than a system of categorization, I'd say its a sliding scale, with the slow riders on upright bikes at one end, and fast riders with a huge backpacks and skinny tires on the other. I fall somewhere in between.

I-Like-To-Bike

But didn't wait long to start posting your personal hip music favorites and gratuitous backhanded swipes at your former countrymen on this commuting list.

Jaywalk3r

The equipment is also far different between the two groups.

For one group, the workout is the goal. The commute is the means to get it. For the other group, getting to work is the goal, and the bike is a practical means to get there, no workout required. It's to drastically different approaches, two drastically different mindsets.

alan s 

IDK. I may be going out on a limb here, but most people riding to work primarily want to get to work. Whether they ride fast or slow, the type of bike, and type of clothing, etc. may vary, but I'd venture a guess that 99% of bike commuters primarily want to get to work. The added benefits of bike commuting, such as getting fresh air, reducing stress, getting a workout, avoiding public transportation, avoiding traffic jams, etc. are secondary goals, and can vary from rider to rider, and for each rider, can vary from day to day.

acidfast7

chill out, man, you seem to get really worked up about things. however, i won't hold it against you.

Jaywalk3r

Do you ride a bike if you're not commuting or running errands? I barely do (and when I do, it's usually part of socializing with a friend who would not be inclined to simply go for a walk). Recreational riding holds virtually no appeal for me anymore (maybe it will again one day; I don't know). Yet, I'm happily and enthusiastically car-free; I don't even like riding in them when others are driving, if I can avoid it. I fall firmly in the first group (although I admit I have a tendency to ride fast, at least from late fall to early spring).

alan s 

Depends. If I'm putting in the usual 150 miles a week, I don't typically ride at other times.

However, if the weather is bad or for other reasons I miss a few days of riding, sure, I'll go for a ride to nowhere. I enjoy it. Recently I've been driving to work with my bike in the car to ride after work on the excellent trails in the vicinity. Breaks up the routine and allows me to explore new areas. I'll also typically increase my daily mileage in preparation for a bike tour so that I can ride 70-100 miles a day without having to suffer too much. Sometimes I just want to get out in the woods and ride for the fun of it to see some wildlife, water and trees.

Regardless, when bike commuting, my main goal is to get to work, and the secondary benefits are whatever they happen to be at the time.

Jaywalk3r

Your posts strongly suggest that you belong to the latter group. While you prioritize making it into work, like most responsible adults, you're trying to get as much saddle time in as possible (given that you likely have other life commitments as well that also take up some of your time). One group is not better than the other, but they each approach urban bicycling quite differently.

GovernorSilver

When not commuting or running errands, I'll go on group rides at the "casual"/"beginner" level - usually something fun like little history tour of Old Town Alexandria or a game of miniature golf mixed in, ending with brunch or some other social hang. There are some people in the group that aspire to join the "medium" level rides, but that sounds more like "training" than "fun" to me.

Maybe I actually belong in a third category.

Frankenbike77

Doesn't sound like the groups are mutually exclusive though

Frankenbike77

I could have used these.
It's a heck of a lot more elegant than this....

fietsbob

Looked at pictures offered, I see the big lump of shifter Mech, in the place where you need to have your hand, to reach the brake lever..


Wait for the Di2 Alfine 11 speed IGH hydro disc brake version.

ThermionicScott 

Yeah. At the risk of going off-topic for this thread , I don't mind the aesthetics. The logoing in the final product reminds me a little of SunTour's Blue Line stuff.

It seems like Shimano has sensed that their (and others') urban/commuting/utility groups have been too stodgy or economical-looking, so they are seeing if making it flashier will help adoption. More power to them.

Darth Lefty 

I think your hand would be just behind it, and your index and ring finger would go on the paddle or the flat part of the lever. I think it looks a little half-baked too.

The flat black plastic color doesn't go with the brushed alloy and glossy black of the drivetrain, either :-/

grolby

Lack of infrastructure, yes. That's the point. That's the problem. Lack of suitable bikes, no. You are just asserting as fact that "suitable" bikes aren't available. That's flat out false, and efforts by American brands to sell these European style bikes have flopped. I won't rehash that again, since you clearly are only interested in telling just-so stories.

As for the best "archetypical" [sic] utility bike, Amsterdam and Copenhagen haven't actually cornered the market on that. Different styles of urban bicycles emerged in the U.K., Northern Europe, France and Italy. There were even multiple options in each country! Witness the Raleigh Sports vs. the roadsters. These bikes share common features, but they aren't identical. You seem to think Amsterdam is such a success as a cycling city because they have the "right" bikes. That's just ridiculous. Amsterdam and Copenhagen are the way they are because of a massive political effort in the late mid-century to reverse the automobilization of those cities. It's urban policy and planning that made Amsterdam and Copenhagen. The bikes had literally nothing to do with it, and it's ridiculous to think they did.

Yes, I have worked on a "proper" city bike. No, you don't know what you're talking about. Dunning-Kruger at work.

These people with no interest in bikes you speak of sure have an exhaustive list of the features they need to have in order to buy one. Those bike industry fools, if only they'd included fender skirts they would've sold them by the container load! I mean, I've sold actual bikes to actual people in the real world who aren't bike enthusiasts, but obviously you're the one with your finger on the pulse of the market.

Again, your argument is that every bicycle product designer in America is an idiot and understands their market worse than you do. That's... profoundly unlikely.


Indeed. Which is why your claim that they won't purchase a bike until it checks off every single feature on your long list is so laughable. There's actually a fair bit of diversity in the bikes I see in photos of people cycling in Amsterdam. The vast majority are upright commuter bikes, as you'd expect, and most of those do fit the classic Dutch archetype. But a lot of them don't. Obviously, give people a place to ride and they're going to buy bikes like this. But they're not going to take bikes that out onto American streets in large numbers just because they've got the right features.

Blah blah blah tedious pablum. City planning, yes. Run with that argument. It's the correct one, and the only thing you've been consistently correct on. The bike industry isn't going to boost mode share by selling the right kind of bike.

I think the question of what the bike industry can do to try and expand its market is actually a good one. I just object to the argument that they can move the needle in a substantial way by simply selling the "right" kind of bike, and that they're failing in this regard. As I've mentioned, repeatedly, they've tried. If a Dutch bike is what people want, a bike that's at least partway there (say, fenders, IGH, built-in rack) should do better than a 24-speed hybrid. But they don't. They don't even come close. Jaywalk3r can claim people will buy $1,000+ Dutch bikes by the million till he's blue in the face, but it doesn't seem like they will until the built environment makes that seem like a safe investment.

Most of the "marketing" effort has been made by advocates, as an effort to make cycling more of a hip urban lifestyle thing. And I think advocacy groups are just inherently going to be better at that sort of thing. They've got more visibility in their markets and they have the policy expertise. The industry should support advocacy, of course, because it's good for them long-term. Jaywalk3r's preferred strategy has already shown its lack of usefulness, however badly he wishes to move the goalposts by insisting the bikes being sold weren't good enough.

grolby

I see a lot of diversity in Boston. I would say the most popular bikes I see are ancient bike boom 10-speeds, hybrids of various forms and shapes (some comfort bikes, some city bikes, some standard LBS hybrids), and big box store mountain bikes. Following that, you have singlespeed/fixed gear bikes, and your Linus bikes - quite popular actually - Surly, things like that. I'm about the only person I see on the Southwest Corridor wearing spandex. Which I feel neither apologetic nor prescriptive about, by the way. I'm a roadie, I ride kind of fast, I get sweaty and I'm okay with myself and with other people doing things differently. Anyway, by far the most common feature of the bikes I see out in the wild is that they're relatively cheap. Sub $500. Many well below that. It's possible the right suite of features would induce a massive surge of confidence to make a big investment, but I've been interested in this stuff for over a decade and I've become very skeptical that the bike is the problem. Public interest in bikes has surged a lot in that time, but new bikes remain very hard to sell.

My industry experience is from working in shops on and off for the last 9 years or so, service and sales. I still cover the occasional shift at my shop, but mostly I have friends in the industry and follow a little bit of what's going on out of personal interest. I can definitely attest to the fact that there are dumb things that happen all the time, and a lot of shops are poorly run. Still, the big brand players are basically good at what they do and have qualified, smart people managing their brands and strategy. It's irritating to see people come in and say "X isn't happening because [simplistic reason], they should try [doing obvious thing]." These folks aren't actually flying by the seat of their pants. They have a lot more information available than we do. They don't always do the best thing with that information, but I see people making the same Grant Petersen argument for the last decade, and not adjusting their mental model to fit the real world.

noglider 

Haha, good stuff, Grolby

Frankenbike77

Same massive surge here in Toronto. If not new big-box bikes, most bikes are used.
There are a lot of new bikes, they are just vastly outnumbered by older ones.
This is indicative of, at least, part of the problem (if you can call it that).
Bikes are generally built well enough that, for the casual cyclist, there is no need to spend a chunk of money on a new bike.
A used bike will serve the majority of urban cyclists just as well. Like an old Camry or Civic, it does the job.
There is also no shortage of used bikes on the market.

NEW SALES isn't happening because [BIKES BE BUILT TOO WELL], they should try [PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE]

Jaywalk3r

Yet you failed to provide even a single model of an archetypical (yes, that's a word; your vocabulary seems as limited as your non-recreational bicycle knowledge) city bike being marketed by US bike industry (because they haven't tried). Any serious attempt at the market would certainly involve offering a bike with all of the common features of a good Dutch style city bike. I've seen half-a***d "copies, but they have all had critical flaws, e.g., rim brakes on a fendered bike or fenders that barely come halfway down the front tire; WTF?

None of the rest of your post is worthy of being addressed (partially because you didn't understand my post because you couldn't be bothered to look up the meaning of archetypical).

gsa103

May I refer you to your local Wal-mart for a bicycle shaped object. Looking around, I'd say its the most successful tactic the bike industry ever did.

Frankenbike77

Now all Trek needs to do is make a bike as a Walmart exclusive. Guaranteed to disintegrate from underneath you in 2 years.

KonAaron Snake 

Live in urban area, ride mostly in urban area. Drop bars fine, with or without interuptors. If you prefer bulls, or flats, go get 'em, but there's certainly nothing wrong with drops in traffic. If you can't brake effectively using drop bars, the issue is your anticipation and/or coordination.