Jaywalk3r

AASHTA: Derailer.

If the French spelling is used, so should be the French pronunciation. If the English pronunciation is preferred, so should be the English spelling.

No it doesn't. Cadence is determined by gear ratio, speed, and tire size. Gear changing technology does not matter.

Not in my experience.

Once again, you seem to be in denial of the preferences of a bicycling world that exists mostly outside of the US.

I grew up being told Santa Claus was real. That didn't make it true.

Geared Hubs vs. Derailer

Also see Sheldon's IGH article.
My experience has been the opposite. Compared to IGHs, I've found derailers to be fragile, finnicky, and generally a PITA. I can't see myself ever going back to using them.

I would argue that head mounted lighting is a very bad idea for street use. (OTOH, they're great for off road use.) Still, you're point about them being transferable is valid. Your claim about the market is much more dubious. Again, most bicyclists do not reside in the US, and are not subject to the marketing of the US bike industry, which designs and markets nearly exclusively to recreational cyclists.

Another dubious rationalization. First, they affect wheel removal only minimally,requiring separation of a connector. Second, good tires allow wheel removal to be quite rare. In over 25,000 miles of commuting, I've had four tire punctures. If I switched to Marathon Plus tires, from my original Marathons, that rate would undoubtedly decrease further.

No, the market disagrees with you. The US is not representative of the bicycle market.

Undoubtedly an installation issue. Most people leave them on year-round with no issues.

The affect on clothes is not the only problem with exposed chains. Considering the Gates carbon drive has been somewhat successful, and, compared to a full chaincase, is an inferior, more costly solution to the problems caused by an exposed chain, the US market, in which you place so much faith, acknowledges that exposed chains are problematic.

I think you're comparing hub brakes and rim brakes here. Objectively, rim brakes don't work as well in wet weather as they do in dry weather. Jobst Brandt discussed it here.

The relative merits of position we will just have to disagree about.

You can certainly argue that you don't need their extra utility, but by any objective measure, Dutch style city bikes have greater utility than the recreational bikes you advocate. One can do much more with them.


ETA: You referred to weight a few times as a deciding factor to not utilize features. Weight is largely a non-issue for utility cycling. The US bike industry's marketing department's have drastically exaggerated its effects.

acidfast7

Most people forget this, especially on BF. The US market is relatively small (less than 15% of the global industry based on total $).

fietsbob

Affairs between teachers and their students ..

acidfast7

Your terseness befuddles me.

kickstart

The enclosed drivetrain on my Dutch bike requires nothing more than a bi annual oiling with a life expectancy of many years. On my derailleur bikes its a weekly maintenance routine and approximately a 6 month life expectancy.

KonAaron Snake 

Surprisingly I learned something from this exchange...I had never seen a defense of derailer (it even comes up subject to auto-correct), though SB's point is interesting.

We can continue banging heads, and at a certain point it has no value. There are many reasons I believe you are wrong, and why the US market believes you are wrong (the market relevant to a conversation on a forum where the overwhelming majority of users are north american). I have found that comparing something in one country to another is typically a futile exercise since the context is apples-hammers. You seem to have limited your view of utility to commuting...and I think most of us are also recreational riders. If you find a one position bike into the wind advantageous for a recreational ride of any distance, God bless. I don't. I did find the smell argument interesting...though I find I pedal the same cadence/power on any bike. Your comment about IGH pedaling cadence during shift is just erroneous. They shift differently...and not well under pressure.

My bike routinely gets lifted up stairs and into trains...up stair wells, up and down into my basement...onto a rather high rack...etc. I would not find a townie conducive to those tasks. They lack utility in many ways and have limited versatility due to those restrictions. It's harder to throw one into the back of a car because of wheel removal constraints. That is a real limit on utility and a considerable disadvantage to IGH and generator hub. Pain in the ass factor to put on a pair of studded tires, or changing a flat, is a real consideration and limit on utility.

I've stated my case...you eventually did make a reasoned argument. Good day, and please use the words objective and ironic correctly go forward.

Jaywalk3r

It is to be inferred that he is a teacher or similar school official. However, all that is actually implied is that his occupation is loosely connected to something education related, which could be anything from university president to elementary school janitor.

Jaywalk3r

The forum is open to international users, is it not? Nothing about the Web site specifies that only the limited views of US bicyclists are of value. Your position is rather arrogant.



No, it is not my view that is limited. It is yours. You seem to think that recreational commuting is the norm. Recreational commuters are outliers. If you want to understand the norm, look at what typical people ride in places where typical people typically ride bicycles to get about their daily lives.

My bike, without cargo, weighs about 35 pounds. I have often carried it, loaded with groceries, up stairs because I was too lazy to make multiple trips. I recognize that not everyone wants to carry a 100+ pound loaded bicycle up stairs, nor do I recommend doing so. However, your premise that a 50 pound city bike cannot be easily carried up stairs is laughable.

You are still having trouble understanding what utility means. Objectively, Dutch style city bikes have far more utility value than the recreational bikes you advocate.

Ignoring the dubious "wheel removal constraints" argument, why would anyone want to throw a car replacement bike in the back of a car? If you need to put your bike in the back of a car, then that bike has extremely limited utility value.

BS. The IGH increases utility. One would have to be pretty mechanically inept to be troubled by the extra step involved in wheel removal. And the extra time required by that extra step is more than made up with decreased maintenance compared with a derailer. Incidentally, I swap out my Marathons for studded Nokians as weather conditions dictate. My IGH (technically CVT) has never been a factor. In three years, a few swaps each year, I doubt disconnecting/reconnecting the shifter cables has added three minutes accumulated total to the process.

kickstart

I use gaadi tubes for my Dutch bike that allows one to repair or replace the tube without removing the wheel.

Jaywalk3r

That's a pretty ingenious idea! WorkCycles Fr8 (I don't know about other models) offers an alternative solution for changing the tube (and tire) without removing the wheel.

In my experience, high quality puncture resistant tires do a good job of preventing flats to begin with.

I-Like-To-Bike

I understand and appreciate the value of being able to shift gears while stopped.

What is the significance or importance of ease of shifting "under pressure" while commuting on a bike?

grolby

Um, yes? What's your point? This is all true, and it seems like you're trying to argue with me but I just don't know why.

For me the relevance of how many American workers live less than five miles from their workplace is mostly in having some idea of how many people could reasonably ride a bike to work based on distance alone. Not how many actually do. Comparing it to the share of Danish workers who live a similar distance from their jobs is interesting to me, since many more Danes do ride bikes to work. It's been sort of a strange random walk to this particular line of conversation and at this point I'm not really trying to prove anything so much as I'm musing out loud about the differences between these nations. I'm not really trying to make an argument, but it seems as though you are.

GovernorSilver

grolby

The argument about roadsters is really pretty tedious by now. Establishing whether or not they're the most "objectively utilitarian" bikes available (just... sheesh, seriously who cares) accomplishes what, exactly?

KonAaron Snake 

It's probably more of a getting used to it thing, but I found it off putting. It messes with the cadence and rythm for me. It is unlikely to make a huge difference commuting, but at the same time the shifting while stopped thing isnt strictly necassary either. You're just picking your poison. I'd rather shift prior to stop, or push a bit harder from stop, than deal with that IGH rythm.

GamblerGORD53

LOL ... Sooo, which side has 50% rider turnout and which side has 50% POS Walmart bikes and useless bungie fork bike sales by the millions and millions ???...
So, which side says $500 is a MAJOR cash outlay for a bicycle of any kind ??? ... LOL
So, which side has 80% utility bikes, while the other has 80% TOY / Recreation bikes, ??? ...
Which side says cycling is sooo dangerous and NEEDS helmets ??? LOL

I don't begrudge KonAaron for views held by 99% of Americans and 98% of the BF crowd, wrong as they are.
I do centuries on my custom IGH heavyweight any time I feel like it. The last one was 123 miles, moving avg 15 mph using 3 SA gears of 5, except one little slope. How many has that Huffy done, Zero ??? My tour bike with the Rohloff master IGH was 120 lbs, 4178 miles in Vietnam and China mountains. Still averaged 11 to 13 mph into all day breezes. Yes, the school kids and grannies actually do 9 mph on one speed bikes, with or without a kid on the back. Don't try this at home with your lame MTB !!! haha. I wizzed those same bikes up to 17 mph, no problem. Like 32 lbs is HEAVY ??? LOL
I'll take any roadster over any MTB ever made. I'll also take my XL-SA dyno drum brake front hub/ Dyad rim over any wheel at any price. 19,000 miles with zero troubles, one bearing replacement at 17,000. One cable adjustment a year.

Bike Gremlin

Very good points made by Jaywalk3r, I agree and 2nd his last two posts.

Only one note: IGH rear wheel removal is difficult to some people, but those people find fixing/changing tyres also difficult, so for them it's irrelevant. Those capable of patching their own tyres are also capable of removing an IGH wheel.

Option to carry a bicycle in a car is a practical one. However, except for those folding bikes, most grown up bikes are equally difficult to put in a car. So I fail to see a difference there.

noglider 

Ya really. I think Dutch bikes are cool, and I'm glad to see them sprouting up in my neighborhood. But I can't use one, as I have a 14-mile commute, and I like to pedal hard. If I had a two-mile commute, I might take a Dutch bike or an English 3-speed.

acidfast7

22km is easy on Dutch bike.

GovernorSilver

Oh, I thought you were talking about something similar to my experience with the Shimano Nexus 8 IGH that came with my first bike.

Shimano Nexus and Alfine Eight Speed Internal-Gear Hubs

A "clunk" now and again on a Shimano 8 speed hub is normal. It is the sun gear rotating and engaging the axle pawl. Even if you pedal lightly it will make that noise/feeling but not as loud. The harder you pedal during shifting or right after, the louder the noise.

Care should be taken to release force on the pedals when shifting. Applying power to a pawl which is partly engaged can damage the pawl. Shock loads have also broken other parts of the axle assembly. Aaron has photos of axles showing typical failures. He also recommends not standing to pedal on hills. Instead, shift down and spin.


I have only ridden one other IGH bike - a Capital Bikeshare bike. I heard they might have been built with Sturmey-Archer IGH but I'm not sure. I have not tested shifting them while pedaling hard at the same time.

No experience with the Alfine or Rohloff IGHs, so I can't comment on how they respond to shifting "under pressure".

Then again I've also read advice to not shift and pedal hard at the same time on a more conventional drivetrain - eg. a road bike groupset.

I-Like-To-Bike

An argument often made on BF (not by grolby) is that the alleged typically longer distances ridden by the alleged typical American bicycle commuter is why there is so much emphasis on the "need" or desirability of competition oriented features (weight, aerodynamic riding position, "efficiency", etc.) for commuting purposes, and these alleged typically long distance commute is also the reason why bikes styles that are popular in Europe are not useful for American commuters.

My point is that there is scant evidence that American bicycle commuters have on average longer commute distances than anywhere else, or are more willing to commute longer distance by bike than anywhere else. Hence one justification (looong average commute distances) for the racing-style oriented bike provided by some posters in BF for U.S. bicycle commuting maybe be true for some individuals but are bogus for US bicycle commuting in general.

grolby

See bolded text above. I also prefer to ride fast, and wouldn't want to ride 14 miles on an upright roadster given the choice of a different bike. As previously discussed in this very thread, the average distance ridden by cyclists in Amsterdam and Copenhagen suggests Danish and Dutch commuters are probably no more keen to ride 22km regularly than an average American. @noglider hasn't claimed to speak for people other than himself on this, and neither do I.

Ah, I see. Yeah, I basically agree. I think if anything, the lower density of many American cities is probably a driving force behind our lower mode share, though only one of many. It's unlikely to work the other direction, where greater commute distances = longer commutes. I mean, it could, but not by enough to make speedier road bikes and the like the most popular commuting bikes in the US.

My point throughout this discussion is that everyone on the BF commuting board tends to impart way too much siginficance to the bikes themselves, whether we prefer fast bikes or Dutch-style roadsters. If US cities change to become more bike friendly, more people will ride, and no doubt roadsters will become a lot more popular over time. It's not going to happen in the other direction. The Dutch don't ride in such vast numbers because they have the right bikes. They have the right bikes because they ride in large numbers.

acidfast7

I can read without bolded text. When you've ridden a proper Dutch bike with Nexus 8 (DK/NL) or a Rohloff (Germany) get back to me. It's quite easy to ride at a steady pace of 20km/h (13mph). In fact, again, that's the pace that all traffic lights are mandatorily programmed for, a 20km/h pace.

Not a problem, all day long.

Anyone thinking they're averaging much faster in an urban area, including stopping time, is deluding themselves.

Thanks for the bold though ... it really brought it home.

Jaywalk3r

At the speeds you say you ride, there seems to be no downside to using a more comfortable bike for those 14 miles. Well, at least none beyond sourcing and purchasing a roadster.

KonAaron Snake 

I agree with this if the bike is only for commuting...but I think most prefer something more versatile once either:

A: The commute IS a "long" commute
B. There's a rail to trail
C. there are steps
D. You want to use the bike for recreational distances where a roadster is impractical.

If you're riding your bike 2 miles to work the truth is you can use pretty much any bike and this is all chatter. People get to work every day on Huffys, roadmasters, etc. Some bikes may be better tools for it (especially when price isn't involved), but commuting routinely gets over complicated here. I've commuted various distances for more years than many here have been alive...when I had less money I still managed to make it to work on a variety of bikes I could afford at the time. I remember commuting to work in Tampa about 10 miles/way on a found cruiser, no racks, when my bike was stolen and I couldn't afford a replacement. I used a MTB to commute West Philly to Paoli.

I understand why some of the roadster crowd are so impassioned/silly...it's the same reason you're more passionate about an obscure band than U-2...once people choose something different than most others, they feel the need to justify (and possibly over compensate/act like immature schmendricks).

If I had to guess, most urban commuters would probably be best served, overall, by a folder.