Steely Dan

i've been using ~$20 front and rear blinkies for "night" riding on chicago's streets for the past 8 years with great success.

if you find that you need more lighting in cities than rural areas, that's cool. i find the exact 100% opposite to be true, at least in the case of chicago's extremely over-illuminated streets.

strokes and folks.....

Stadjer

Talk about condescending... It was 31°C last week. 38°C is quite rare but it happens, and I have ridden in that weather and even warmer, on that was on a rotten bike that was 5 sizes too small. Yes, I did sweat but less than when walking in the same weather, that's the point. If you can't cycle with less of a physical effort than walking I'm afraid you're a far less accomplished cyclist than my late mother, who I wouldn't call a very good cyclist.

ThermionicScott 

...or someone who naturally sweats more than you. It's not just about cycling "accomplishment"!

Look, I'm happy for those of you who living in bicycling paradises, but you should expect to get some pushback when your pat advice isn't universally guaranteed to work as you imagine.

Steely Dan

go back and reread the first post of this thread.

the OP said, and i quote, "I sweat a lot, even when I'm not doing anything."

as a fellow heavy sweater, i can tell you that your advice to "just slow down and your won't sweat" is utterly worthless to the OP. as i said before, i can't even WALK down the street on summer day without sweating. hell, sitting motionless in a chair in a room that's slightly too warm causes me to start sweating. my body is ridiculusly sensitive to heat/warmth, i guess my internal furnace just runs really hot. i'm eternally right on the very edge of starting to sweat. the only thing slowing down would do would just prolong the amount of time that i'm sweating for.

nitroRoo

blah blah sweat blah blah blah. Go ride your bike. 15 miles is a great commute distance once you've built up the necessary muscles and endurance. And to have a path the whole way available to you - wow, sounds awesome! The absolute shortest my route can be is 12.8 miles, and at least 7 or 8 of those miles are on 4 lane roads with heavy traffic. I've worked out many other routes that range from 16-28 miles in length that are a bit more scenic, but there are some sections of very busy roadway that I just can't avoid.

Anyway, here on the NC/SC border I sweat a LOT on the way in to work. There are lots of hills and I just cannot ride slow on those busy roads. I feel too vulnerable plodding along at 12mph, I'm usually cranking along at 20+ on those sections. I get in a good workout, and I arrive to work alive (and sweaty). I'm fortunate that I have pretty much no dress code at work. I keep a duffle bag under my desk full of a week's worth of clothes, along with all the usual toiletries. We don't have a shower so I get to work, grab my bag, head to the bathroom and do a quick wash down with a few wet paper towels and baby wipes. I do keep a regular towel in the supply closet (attached to said bathroom) which is also where I hang up my riding kit to dry for the day. Cycling shoes are swapped out for some vans or boots I keep under my desk, and 10-15 mins later I'm fully dressed, clean, fresh, and ready for the day.

I'd definitely go for it. You will need to invest in some lights and some riding gear as the weather cools off - but just think of it as tradeoff for gas money. You'll be saving in the long run and it's a great way to keep up your health, etc riding a bike 2 hours a day. Check back in after your first few commutes and let us know how it's going!

Stadjer

This advice you mean?
Besides that, I wast just agreeing with Cranky one that cycling doesn't have to be a workout but can be just as low effort as walking, if you take the time. That has nothing to do with the bicycling paradise where it's 31 C and humid late in September, where it rains horizontally when it's freezing in the autumn and winter, and were -5 C cyling through the snow is actually the nicer winter weather to cycle in. Actually, I'm just back from the rain, but it wasn't that bad, just rain as usual. I don't mind some pushback, just read carefully what you're pushing back against and get your facts right if you want to use them as an argument.

I did it read it and even reacted to the part about winter cycling. The point is that if you cycle slow enough and pay attention to your clothing, it doesn't make any difference in the sweating, if you sweat sitting on a chair you will sweat sitting on a saddle. No, getting on a bike won't miraculously cure excessive sweating, it will only help you cool down a bit because of the air flow compared to walking. Unless you're such an incompetent cyclist that you start sweating by the idea of having to balance a bike, but I didn't consider that likely enough to mention. But after some of the posts above, I start wondering whether I was bit optimistic...

I don't get it, if you sweat anyway, how does beeing on the bike prolong the amount of time that you're sweating?

As I said, people are different, and I don't envy the way your body works in this respect and wish you all the best handling it. Cycling is generally the same though, and if it doesn't have to add to sweating the Netherlands, it doesn't have to add to sweating on the flatter routes in the US.

Steely Dan

i don't think you did, at least not carefully enough. he admitted to being a heavy sweater, and your advice to "slow down and you won't sweat" is worthless advice to a heavy sweater.

it'd be like me telling an alcoholic "if you just sip your whiskey slowly, you won't have a drinking problem".

a person who is a heavy sweater will sweat while riding a bike on a summer day in chicago whether he's going 3 mph or 23 mph, or anywhere in between.


because it's more time spent outdoors in the heat and humidity as opposed to the cool dry comfort of my air conditioned home and office.

noglider 

Before the argument about sweating started, I was about to say you're unusually reasonable, @Stadjer. But perhaps you're not considering the perspective many of us have. I'm not a heavy sweater, or at least I don't think I am. But when summer comes, I can sit completely still and sweat heavily. There's no way to do less than sitting. Yet you're saying (right?) that if I'm sweating, I must be pedaling too hard. I don't pedal when I sit still. Here in the NYC area, summer nights are warmer and more humid than your summer days. Sweat evaporates before you notice it sometimes, depending on the amount you sweat AND the humidity of the air. As humidity increases, that evaporation decreases, and it is out of the human's control.

ThermionicScott 

That's good advice, and I didn't mean to throw it all out with the bathwater. And you're hitting on why many folks need to ride fast -- the kinds of commuting speeds needed to avoid working up a sweat (above what they would get merely being alive and outside) could extend bike-commuting times into the hours, and make it an unworkable proposition.

Ultimately, we (as companies and individuals) need to get over our disdain of sweat -- it's natural, we evolved to be active beings, it should be embraced. Even though my commute has shrunk to only about 4.5 miles, I still ride it pretty hard. That's what makes me happy.

Stadjer

Unusually reasonable for this forum or unusual reasonable for me?

Yes, but what has the cycling got to do with it? I said it's just like walking except for more air flow. It might not get very hot here regularly but I know heat and I know cycling in undutch heat, if you experience heat a lot you probably also know that once you heat up, you stay hot very long and it's impossible to cool down. Staying relatively cool is often possible, but that means that you have to avoid increase in physical activity because you can't just cool down again after. On a hot day 5 minutes of brisk walking can keep me sweating heavily for hours. The overheating is not done with after I stopped causing it.

And that is actually what I meant to add to the discussion about cycling and sweating, with cycling there's a simular problem, it's possible to stay relatively cool pedalling, but it's extremely hard to cool down while pedalling after you have heated up too much. There's a point of no return, if you start sweating you keep sweating, so my advice in general to prevent sweating (if you want to and your body and other circumstances like the weather and the length of the commute allow for it) is to recognize that point of no return before you're past it. That's also an issue with winter commuting, because you would want to dress warm enough. But if it's hot I prefer the bike and pay attention to riding slow enough, just to enjoy the little airflow with the same effort as with walking, unless I can walk in the shade and have to bike in the sun. The airflow at such low speeds doesn't come close to compensating for that.

I agree on sweating but I believe it should be embraced by the availability of showers. Besides the fact that cycling and sweating don't necessarily come together, also sweating and riding shouldn't have to come together with beeing sweaty in the workplace. Some don't like that for themselves (me) and some don't like that in others, people should have options. And don't think bike commute has a very bright future in the USA if it's dependent on the willingness of people to work in eachothers smell of sweat.

noglider 

You're describing your body, not mine. I don't need a long time to cool down. I don't have a point of no return. If I get hot and sweaty and have a cool place to sit still, I can cool down and stop sweating in 20 minutes. So generalizing in this way doesn't work. Many bodies are unlike yours.

More importantly, you didn't address my point. Given that many of us sweat even without exertion, reducing our intensity of cycling doesn't reduce sweating. Cycling gently, even at a hypothetical 1 km/h, is more exertion than zero, and zero is the point at which we start sweating. Am I making myself clear now? It is not that we don't understand you. It's that what you say is not possible, and you continue to assert that it is.

Stadjer

The fact everybody is different doesn't mean there aren't general ways things work. I can cool down in a cool place also, sitting down. But cooling down pedalling is lot harder than keeping cool pedalling. It's possible to maintain a certain bodyheat pedalling, but if you get up to high body heat that's what you will maintain when you keep pedalling.

Appearantly you didn't understand me. Maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough, but I said that cycling doesn't have to cause sweating, if you were already sweating, got on a bike and continued sweating, the sweating wasn't caused by the cycling, was it? If you sweat strolling, you will sweat cycling, cycling doesn't make the difference if you take it slow enough and anticipate overheating well. You're free to discuss sweating in general but I was talking about cycling as a specific cause of sweating and know for a fact it doesn't need to be.

fastturtle

I do agree. And I have the feeling (not scientifically based) that the more you sweat, the least smelly is your sweat. There is ample of supply of water to evaporate, there is not so much toxines. Once toxines are out, they are out. If you sweat a lot and often, but keep reasonably clean overall, your sweat shouldn't stink too much. Although again, in this respect we are certainly not all equals.

So to summarize :
- Keep sweating regularly
- Drink a lot of water
- After you arrive, refresh yourself in the lavatories, for instance simply by rinsing your face with cold water.
- If you are not doing long rides, one shower a day should be enough, and doesn't have to be immediately after your ride.

wphamilton

I think it's better to advise how to deal with it than argue about whether or not you'll sweat. It varies; even for one individual going to the same place every day it varies. Even if you have a shaded, flat route that's relatively short in a cool or temperate climate, chances are that at some point you'll have to manage sweating. If not sweat, you can get caught in a random rain, splashed from car tires, or other eventualities which amount to the same problem. If you try to dress to stay completely dry in the rain, such as the raincoat and other suggestions I've seen here, you'll be sweating underneath if you put out any effort at all. Stuff will happen.

Best practice, in my opinion, is to be prepared for it at work AND carry with you the means to clean up. I've tried it a lot of different ways, and I've pretty much made them all work, but one constant that is just about always advisable is to keep an emergency change of clothes at work. And a towel. If there's no place at work, or you can't for some other reason you have to carry it. A key point either way is have a fresh change of everything, skin out, whether or not you need it on a particular day.

If you do find yourself over-heated in street clothes, you might notice that you're ok as long as you keep moving but start to get drenched as soon as you stop. I've been known to tool around a parking lot just to cool off. It's not optimal and takes me 15 minutes or more, but as they say any port in a storm.

noglider 

Agreed!

@Stadjer, thank you for clarifying your point. I still don't agree, but at least I understand what you're saying.

Darth Lefty 

Oh my god, the ink you all have spilled on this! It's autumn in Chicago, if you get sweaty unzip your windbreaker

Phil_gretz

...as this is how it's done in the real world. I ride significant hills, and at a pace that gets me from point A to point B as efficiently as possible, right in my body's sweet spot for exertion/performance/comfort. Exactly as I'd train my body to react. And heat management is critical for more than half of the year. Nicest is Fall, where lower temperatures and lower humidity make riding much more comfortable. Spring is nice, because there's the promise of warmth just creeping into the air. Winter is fine, but clothing adjustments are tricky to adjust heat loss properly. Summer is okay, but the air is humid and you need to keep moving to not roast.


Sweat happens...

Steely Dan

what windbreaker?

jackets are for sub-40 temps.

it's 64 degrees here today.

cyccommute 

It depends on the $20 (or less) light.

But you are missing the point. Every urban area is over-illuminated...although there are still plenty of places where you need a light to actually "see" where you are going. The reason you need lots of lights in cities is because urban areas are over-illuminated. It's not about seeing where you are going but being seen while you are going. A small "be seen" light simply isn't going to be "seen" in a sea of other lights. Bright lights of similar output to the other light sources around (see link) are really the "be seen" lights. You need to catch the attention of the motorists with lights that make them question whether that light coming towards them is attached to something large enough to worry about.

Now if Pugs has a magical bike path that runs from door-to-door, a "be seen" light will probably work, although there are places where having more illumination is helpful even on bike paths. But I doubt that any bike path system is that comprehensive. All of us have to spend a little bit of time on roadways and it's a very good idea to actually be seen, instead of thinking we are seen.

cyccommute 

I hope we aren't mixing units here but based upon your above statements, I don't think we are.

A 12 mph (20kph) pace is considered "moderate" bicycling in just about every list of activity I've ever seen. Caloric output for a 12 mph pace is around 500 calories/hour which is at the same level as running 5 mph which is a "brisk" pace, if not outright fast. It also similar to an hour of aerobics, swimming, soccer, tennis or stair climbing. All of those are sweat inducing activities...as is an hour of 12 mph bicycling.

Now if we are mixing units and you really mean kilometers per hour, that's a bit of a different situation. That's 7mph which might some people might be able to do with out sweating.

Yes, you can slow down but there is a limit to how much time you want to spend on an activity. At 12 mph, a 15 mile commute takes 1.25 hours. At 6 mph, that same commute takes 2.5 hours. I'm not sure that many people would consider an extra 1.25 hours worth the time to avoid sweating.

You may be able to do 12mph but, according to the charts on caloric output for bicycling at that speed most people won't be able to.

Stadjer

No, I did a kmh/mph conversion that was reasonably accurate. 20 km/h is a normal brisk ride, actually that's were the calorie burning tables start at here when it comes to cycling. The average cycling speed for commuters in their normal clothes is more like 15 km/h and they don't all arrive at work soaked either. I'm tall and quite fit for a 40+ man, but certainly nothing extreme, but I'm very well trained in this kind of exercise of course, I'v been 'training' for almost 40 years on it and my thighs and buttocks are certainly well developped above average through other sports and genetics, but also here nothing extreme.

I suspect caloric output just don't represent effort in a way that is relevant for sweating. We can calculate the caloric output of running for an hour, but I know a lot of people who can't run for a quarter of an hour, they just don't have the stamina for it because they don't do sports, no matter the pace they run at. But they can ride their bike for over an hour, probably at 20 km/h, not without sweating but they wouldn't have to lie down gasping for air either like with walking for just a quarter of the time. So there must be something relevant to exercise and sweating other than caloric outoput. Certainly when it's just about sweating, sweat is not the only way to cool the body, swimming for example is not very sweaty, but has a decent caloric output. But it's not the clothes and the airflow that explains why I always sweat when I go running, no matter what pace, and almost never sweat when I go ride a bike at brisk pace.

Also I didn't claim I just ride at an average of 20 km/h and happen not to sweat, that's true for 15 km'h, but when aming to average 20 km/h I have to be very careful not to sweat, because it's for me at edge of what can be done without sweating (as in getting wet from sweat, drops running down and wetting parts of clothes). So for me the 30 km ride from Assen last Month was an opportunity to find out were that edge was on a longer route and I did and that's why I can be this sure about it. Unless it's really sunny and warm, the clothes I wear outside are warm enough to walk in cycle in. If I would just sit outside in those clothes I would get cold, that's not what I wear those clothes for because I don't just sit outside if it's not warm, so I took my jacket, but took it off after about 5 minutes and rode the rest in a thin cotton t-shirt. That's part of the body heat management.

Also I ride in a straight line, I have a bike with a lot of caster which makes it easy, and don't put any effort into steering. I don't use my upperbody at all, it's the thighs and buttocks where the power is. I don't speed up fast, I just wait for the momentum to come, I take hills slowly, because an average like that doesn't allow for cooling down so I have to watch out not to heat up. I carry speed after a downhill part and use it to keep the average up. I draft other cyclists if there's the possibility, and I don't really brake unless there's something unexpected. It's rather pointless to pedal to a red traffic light unless it's about to change to green.

That's not how I normally handle my (shorter) bike rides, but it isn't that different, just a bit more attention and concentration because it was at the edge of sweating, managing body heat is just routine. Normally I just loosen a button or adjust my speed without thinking about it and brake a bit more often.

Yes, that's why I advised to organize some freshening up and sweat like a racer.

No, especially those ones that aren't trained physically to do that. But the training is just a matter of riding a bike a lot. And maybe the 12 mph isn't achievable for everybody, but 10 or 11 mph will do for a short commute. The point was that sweating is a choice, it doesn't have to come with riding a bike and the distance doesn't necessarily have to change that. The other point was that cooling down while pedalling is very hard, so you have to slow down before you start sweating and avoid peaks in energy input.

cyccommute 

And there it is! No, I...and others...aren't "out of shape" because we sweat. A 12 mph pace is an aerobic pace and no one should expect to not sweat when doing that speed. I don't personally need "training" nor do I need to "ride a bike a lot" to learn how not to sweat. I do ride a lot. My normal year is around 3000 miles with occasional spikes to 5000 miles when I tour for weeks at a time. I know how to ride and I'm trained more than the average person. I also happen to sweat at just about any speed. And, no, a mile or 2 per hour isn't going to make any difference to how much a normal person sweats when riding aerobically. Maybe half that speed but not just a small adjustment.

And, no sweating isn't a "choice". It's a physiological response to aerobic activity. There's a pretty good reason that 12 mph is considered a moderate aerobic activity as well. Around that speed, wind resistance starts to have a major impact on the energy output require to move the bicycle. Your contention that "anyone should be able to ride at 12 mph without sweating" is just wrong.

mcours2006

It pretty much depends on the air temperature. At 12 mph (20 km/h) I am not sweating at the time that I normally ride, which is 6AM, even in the summer the temperature is in the mid-teens.

noglider 

By the way, I understand we do sweat when we swim, we just can't notice it.

Johnny Mullet

Is this a thread about commuting or sweating?