vrkelley

[Request for Comment]

Maybe it's the engineer in me but doesn't it seem strange that we have to buy extra gear to make up for bad design? Granted some companies already address this but for the most part many don't. Here are some examples.

Pant leg protectors ... bikes should come with a chain guard
Bike seat pads to keep seat from getting watter logged ... Saddle should do this
Road vibration pads... handlebars should include that....are my pot holes any worse than yours? probably not
Helmet cover ... helmet vents should close
Rain Gaitors ... pants should come in lengths so tall folks don't need em
booties ... shoe should protect your feet
'commuter bike' sold with no lights, fenders etc ... hmmmm

DataJunkie

I am guessing that part of it has to do with keeping the initial cost of the bike low.

Anyhow, it really is too bad that your average recreational rider does not understand how functional a bike can be with the right accessories. Meaning that bikes can be ridden in cold and\or bad weather.

recursive

On the other hand, a chain guard makes the chain harder to clean and lube, and personally, I don't have any problem with pants, so I usually prefer bikes not to have chain guards.
My saddles already do this.
I have never heard of these road vibration pads, but most hybrids do come with front shocks.
Helmets are elegantly simple. This sounds like a significant increase in their complexity and another thing that can break. Actually, helmet covers are probably cheaper than closable vents.
I'm not sure what these things are, but pants do come in a variety of lengths.

Shoes should not protect your feet as much as booties do. They'd be way too hot in the summer! Note that there are winter specific cycling shoes available. I have some.

I agree with you on the lights and fenders for commuter bikes. I like having removable lights though, which makes them easier to replace.

HiYoSilver

And maybe it's the engineer in me that finds it strange we don't have a Consumers Digest of bikes to make up for bad purchasing decisions.

Comments on your examples, as requested
Pant leg protectors-- don't need them, but reinstating the chain guards would be nice.
Seat pads-- what's that.
Vibration pads-- huh, tape works fine for me.
Helmet covers-- makes sense, only buy if need. But $20 for a nice looking shower cap is bad.
Rain gaitors-- what's rain? not everyone lives in seattle, portland or florida
booties-- I don't see booties being shipped with a new bike. Only needed for moist environments or very cold envs
bike with no lights -- this is the dumbest idea, only exceeded by both the lack of side bike reflectors and side LED clearance lights. It won't change until biking lobby is more effective than the bike manufacturer's lobby. My view is bikes should not be allowed to be sold without a working bike lights: headlight, tail light, side lights, period.
fenders-- These add on fenders are just sooooo anaesthetic. They should be required on all non-Tri/TT bikes.

How could you miss:
pack rack or seat rack?
bell or horn?
reflective coating/tape on wheel rims?
reflective coating/tape outlining bike frame?

I see an opportunity for more bike manu profit here.

Part of the problem is the buyers' perception this is a toy or a piece of sports equipment instead of a vehicle.
A toy or sports toy to too many means cutting safety to fit within my idea of what it should cost. For most that is less than $600. A $600 vehicle is a piece of cr***. A $3000 vehicle will do the job for you. If we bought more $3000+ commuting bikes, the manu's would fall all over themselves to deliver. Can't just blame the makers, much of the blame must rest on buyers failing to pony up the vehicle investment costs and to complain mightly when mimimum options are not available: i.e. no sale until you can deliver a vehicle with all these characteristics.

marqueemoon

Ok. I'll bite.

Pant leg protectors ... bikes should come with a chain guard
Chain guards are heavy and block access. A well-maintained chain lubed with wax-based lube stays pretty clean.

Bike seat pads to keep seat from getting watter logged ... Saddle should do this
Ask the Brooks lovers here what they think about this.

Road vibration pads... handlebars should include that....are my pot holes any worse than yours? probably not
Handlebars, like saddles are a matter of personal preference. What is comfortable for one person may be uncomfortable for another. Such a system would add cost to a bike, and might not be an attractive feature to many people.

Helmet cover ... helmet vents should close
This would add weight that is not removable in warmer, drier weather. Helmet covers are cheapers than buying two helmets.

Rain Gaitors ... pants should come in lengths so tall folks don't need em
I'm tall. I ride in the rain all the time. I don't need them.

booties ... shoe should protect your feet
See my helmet cover response.

'commuter bike' sold with no lights, fenders etc ... hmmmm
Any bike marketed as a commuter bike should be able to run fat tires and fenders. That doesn't mean they should be included. As far as lights go, the only lights that make sense as original spec are dynamo lights, and there just isn't much of a market for them in America. This makes them cost more, making them expensive to spec as original equipment, and 95% of potential bike buyers couldn't care less. Racy-looking bikes sell to the masses. Unsexy workhorse bikes don't.

squeakywheel

Last fall, I looked for a helmet with no vents. I wanted a second helmet specifically for cold or rainy weather. Couldn't find one. One LBS said I could use a BMX helmet. Others had shower caps I could stretch over my helmet. Frustrating.

Artkansas 

Well, we can tell you are from Seattle. In Palm Springs they would question the heavy emphasis on rain protection. The point is that each commuter's commute is different. The answer is general, not specialized.

Pant leg protectors. Sounds like the pants are badly designed rather than the bicycle. Even with a chain guard, you still have the wear and tear of the pant leg on the chain guard. I use velcro straps to keep the pants out of the way when cycling. They are an accessory to the pants as is a belt.

No clue on your bicycle seat pad, what ever that is. My bike has fenders to keep it dry when I'm riding and otherwise a plastic bag will keep it dry if I am foolish enough to lock it in the rain.

Road vibration pads? Whatever they are would tend to destroy the feel of the handlebars and the info I get about the road through them. I do like riding gloves with a good dollop of gel in them.

Built in vent covers in the helmet would seem to penalize the rider weight wise. I think the Bell Metro has the right concept in allowing you to customize it.

As far as shoes. I just keep a spare set at work.

Commuter bike without lights fenders etc. Well, none of my commuter bikes were born commuter bikes. So it doesn't matter how a "commuter bike" is accessorized.

One bike was a 10 speed, one a mountain bike. Both were perfect for certain commutes and wrong for others.

And assigning things like lights, fenders etc removes the control of what I spend from me. As a consumer, I prefer a wide choice. Perhaps what you are calling bad design is more "not designed for you".

HiYoSilver

You can get a helmet with reduced vents. A TT/Tri helmet are normally ok. Here are some examples
https://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=4210
https://www.performancebike.com/shop/...tegory_ID=4210
https://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...HP_CYCLING_TOC
https://www.all3sports.com/product_in...da591fb8fd8575
https://www.all3sports.com/product_in...da591fb8fd8575
https://www.all3sports.com/product_in...da591fb8fd8575
https://www.nytro.com/product_p/16190.htm
https://www.trivillage.com/limhel0340.html

PaulH

Pant leg protectors ... bikes should come with a chain guard

I agree. I would not consider purchasing a bike without a chainguard.

Bike seat pads to keep seat from getting watter logged ... Saddle should do this

My saddle does this just fine.

Road vibration pads... handlebars should include that....are my pot holes any worse than yours? probably not

I don't notice this problem. Isn't that what hamdlebar grips do? It may be more of an issue with road bikes, where you have significant weight on the handlebars and narrower tires.

Helmet cover ... helmet vents should close
If it is cold enough for me to not want vents, it is cold enough that I want more than a bike helmet to keep my head warm. I have a Gor-Tex hooded overcoat, and the helmet goes over the hood just fine.

Rain Gaitors ... pants should come in lengths so tall folks don't need em

They do -- just shop around for bigger rain pants. No big deal if they are loose.

booties ... shoe should protect your feet

High top Totes . They also make rain gaitors unnecessary

'commuter bike' sold with no lights, fenders etc ... hmmmm

...from the folks that make 'comfort bikes' that are not comfortable, what do you expect? A real, Euro-spec 'commuter' bike costs $1,000 or more.

Keep in mind that most bikes get ridden a few times a year, if that. They get purchased based on some short-lived resolution to "get in shape", and languish in the basement. If the bike is not going to be used, why add expensive features to make it useful?

Paul

Jarery

Actually, i would prefer even less to be included with an original bike. Leaving more to be personal choice.

Most every mid pric and up bike now comes without pedals, so your not paying for the stock ones, then tossing them to add your own. But how many people have replaced saddles?

jyossarian

Pant leg protectors ... bikes should come with a chain guard
Commuters, comfort and hybrid bikes should come w/ chain guards since most likely they'll be used by recreational cyclists that don't usually have bike shorts.

Bike seat pads to keep seat from getting watter logged ... Saddle should do this
Most have some degree of water resistance, but they also need to breathe to prevent mold. Again, this assumes commuting usage and should be an option.

Road vibration pads... handlebars should include that....are my pot holes any worse than yours? probably not
How about better vibration damping by the fork, stem and handlebars. That's a function of design.

Helmet cover ... helmet vents should close
Helmets used for commuting should come with rain covers, ear warmers, Take-a-look mirrors and a blinkie, similar to the Bell Metro.

Rain Gaitors ... pants should come in lengths so tall folks don't need em
Should be sold separately from the bike.

booties ... shoe should protect your feet
Should be sold separately from the bike.

'commuter bike' sold with no lights, fenders etc ... hmmmm
I think options should include dynohubs, choice of lights, mirrors, racks, etc.

HiYoSilver

BTW- cheapest pant protector: putting them inside your socks. Sorry, won't work with nylons very well.

marqueemoon

...or crappy seatposts, or stems that don't fit, or bars that aren't the right shape or size. Most shops don't even offer credit on such items anymore because they're garbage. *sigh*. Or, you could build a new bike from a frame and spend twice the money as you would "upgrading" a stock bike.

I know it's capitalism and all, but this sucks. So much waste, and I'm not just talking about money.

catatonic

No need for leg protectors, I just roll up my right pant leg. Chain guards aren't needed if you roll your pant leg far enough up.

My seat has no padding anyways, but it's comfy enough....nice flat top on it.

I just use Gel tape and put it on with as much overlap as possible...I have less than an inch to cut off if any at all when done wrapping.

I'm looking at booties soon myself...I'd rather have to buy that than deal with poorly ventilated shoes.

Helmet covers....again, rather buy it than make my helmet more complicated than it needs to be.

Gaitors...no comment, I do carry rain pants though, and wish mine were a bit shorter.

As for bike without lights....different folks want different lighting...for me, nothing short of a $140 light set will do...I must have my halogen goodness, and 10-led taillight. As for fenders, I agree.

GGDub

Sounds like you need an old dutch single speed, but here goes

Chain guard, good idea, but needs to be lightweight if you have hills and easily removable

Bike seat pads, just use a plasitc bag if you leave your bike outside. Any extra padding in saddles tends to cause numbness, not prevent it

Road vibration pads. Don't death grip your bars and you'll be fine, unless you're constantly offroad then get some good suspension.

Helmet cover - never needed one, in winter I wear a skullcap underneath, and believe me its fine for out here and it gets freakin cold

Rain gaitors - howabout just rainpants that fit? Or if you ride a more upright bike, just use a poncho. Look up pictures of the dutch and you'll get it.

Booties - boots are really cumbersome to ride in. Booties still allow a shoe to be agile while making them warm.

I would agree, with the last. In N. America we haven't figured out how to make a solid commuter bike. Of course we have a lot of varied terrain on this continent, and what's good enough for someone in L.A. wouldn't cut it for someone here in Alberta. Or what someone has here in Alberta, is overkill for a place like Davis, Ca. for example.

CHenry

A chain guard could be made from molded polycarbonate, have a lube slot, be plug-in mountable with silicone damped pins to null vibration (and just as easily detached from the pin socket mounts for chain removal) and still wouldn't have to cost much.

DCCommuter

I've been tempted to buy a snowboarding helmet for that use case, I just can't tell if I'd be able to hear. They're made to the same standards as bike helmets, by many of the same manufacturers.

Now's a good of year to buy them!

Bekologist

VR,

the glaring omission of water resistant or goretex lined cycling shoes is an affront to all northwesternerners and anyone who rides their bikes on a daily basis.

Who wouldn't like a nice pair of goretex biking shoes similar to goretex running shoe to slip on when it's pouring buckets or the roads are sloppy?

I'm not talking about lame, Lake winter neoprene biking shoes.


As to those seat covers, I'm a year round Brooks rider in Seattle and never cover my saddles, wether riding in the rain or parking in the rain around town. At work, sometimes, if the weather is lousy, or overnight while camping.

Everything else you lament about; most of that is addressable, but you're right, not many manufacturers accomodate with such specialized features.

slvoid

I'd prefer bikes sold bare to save cost then I equip it with what I need.
Don't want no comfort commuter with a weak 5 watt generator light when I could have the equivalent of 40+ watts of halogen separately.

yes

The current situation is fine. Buy the accessories that you need/want. However, it would be nice if bike companies would make rack/fender/bag sets for each bike and sell them as optional or in option packages like car companies do. That way, people could get something designed to work hassle free if they like. I think that some do this, though. I've heard of Trek racks, I just bought the generic cheap one.
One of these options or packages could be a night riding kit. They could paint the bike with reflective paint (something that is hard to do after the fact), and offer some lighting gear. However, I like to pick and choose lighting stuff.

2manybikes

All of those things are on the market. They don't sell well in some places, like the USA, or some local areas.
The commuter bikes with fenders, lights, and vibration dampening are sold in Europe, but some are not offered to USA bike shops. They bike companies have done the market research and tried to sell things that don't sell well already. If there is not enough volume of customers for a product, it makes no sense to the company to try and sell them in that location. It does not make sense for the wholesaler, or the bike shop either.
The fully equipped bikes cost more than a plain bike, it's tough to sell against something cheaper, even if the customer is going to add all the accessories later.

Gary Fisher and Fuji offer commuter bikes fully equipped in the USA, probably others too.

Check the Fuji "Kobe" line of bikes. They have chain guards fenders, generator lights, racks, etc.

thdave

I understand the mentality here quite well. All of us are accustomed to buying the components needed for commuting and have for years. I think we are pretty comfortable with it. Yet this is bad design! Bikes are functional and most folks don't even know it! The vast majority of society doesn't want to bother getting in to this sort of thing. I don't think they know how useful a bike can be!

I'll throw in another criticism--which I'm sure is unpopular here. Derailer bikes require lots of maintenance! That isn't good design!

There are good designs out there, but they are in the minority. Breezer bikes sells a nice package for $700 for the 7 speed model; $550 for the 3-speed. https://www.breezerbikes.com/bikes.cfm. Also, if the demand was there, companies from Japan, China, and Europe could undoubtably import lots of similarly well designed bikes for comparable or even less money. I think this could happen one day.

Maybe a tax credit needs to inspire it. Or a nice sponsorship by Lance Armstrong. Or who knows what the could catch North America's eye (we have to include our Canadian friends in this). We need that trigger that makes folks again consider well-designed bikes. If it happens, I think it could last for quite some time, reducing our oil consumption and resulting in better health.

HiYoSilver

I can understand you like your breezer, but look at the long range breezers. Standard mtn bike 27 speed units. 7 gears is not enough. What is really needed is a new powertrain system:

range: 20 to 140 Gear Inches
steps: 8 to 10% change in GI with each shift up
internal mechanism: away from dirt exposure

Sounds simple doesn't it, but it just does not exist currently. If they'd make it, I'ld buy it. Much more exciting than shamino "10 speed" cassettes.

thdave

HiYo Silver, away!

I mostly agree. Better gear range on an internal hub or direct drive would be nice. I think my 7 speed goes from 35 to 84. I use them all and it is more than adequate for Cleveland, Ohio. Even so, I know if I had more gears-- I'd use them, just like I do when I ride my 24 speed hybrid. (BTW, I think 25 to 110 is fine. I think most rarely use the granny ring).

Maybe an internal gear hub on both sprockets could increase range. Why don't they do that?

Regardless, most riders don't need all those gears. Racers do, mountain climbers do. People like us who ride a lot want them, but we know how to adjust them and the maintenance is part of life. The common Joe wants them 'cause its cool and the most bikes have 'em. He doesn't need it though and it causes him more grief than it is worth.

For the vast majority of riders, 45 to 80 gear range is acceptable. You have to easily start from a stop, you have to go up some hills and you need a gear to achieve road speed on the straight-aways. An internal gear hub can do this now just fine, complete with chain guard and no adjustments are needed.

In the grand scheme of things and for the vast majority of the cities in the Americas, there is no comparison (IMO) between the two. Better range vs. sure shifting (no need to look down to see if it shifted), no adjustment needed, chainguard protected gear system on the other.

*edit* Woops--didn't read everything HiYo said. I don't think "long range" has a significant bearing on the issue of internal gear hub vs. derailer. I'm not really sure, but I think this has more to do with the handlebars than gearing. Hmmm. I guess you could argue the two go together, since drop bars allow you to use higher gears. I could definitely see the Uptown 8 speed with drop bars, but anything less than 90 on the high end might not be suitable. Interesting--hadn't considered this before. I rarely travel more than 15 miles. My commute is only 6.4 miles.

DCCommuter

Google "rohloff." Or did you forget to add, "less than $1000"?