a2psyklnut

I actually got pulled over for speeding. I was coming down this long rolling hill. I shifted to the Big Ring and was hammering. Right past the School Zone sign.

The officer pulled the old, "I'm just going to give you a warning this time" routine, and was almost shocked when I responded with, "A warning, are you sure? I'd love to be able to brag about a ticket". We both got a chuckle. I think it made his day!

L8R

Dv8shawn

I hold my position. If I don't make the light I pull up far enough for the cars behind me to trip the signal, but stay back so I don't get clipped by the corner cutters that turn across my lane.

I don't really have to worry aboot red lights much, there are only 8 in this podunk town. And along with the nice bike lanes that went with the road remodeling, we also got triggers in the bike lanes at most lights.

What aboot carbon bikes? The induction loops are designed to trip with large masses of metal, not "silly plastic toys". Would the broken light theory still hold for something it's not designed to detect in the first place?

Pete Clark

Try to obey every traffic law when possible. If it's not possible, come as close as you can.

I "stop" a few feet from a stop sign so that I can roll very slowly up to the "stop line" while looking at the traffic situation before proceeding.

I'm sure I spend more time pausing and looking than any motorist.

Andy Dreisch

Right, Pete. Similarly, the only time I ever proceed (after first stopping ... I always stop) at a red light is where the road narrows beyond the intersection. In this way, I beat the traffic and I'm safer as a result, and the drivers have less negotiating to do.

I do, however, slow but don't typically stop at red lights at 'T's, where there is no travel lane to the right of me. I am cautious of merging traffic in this case, however.

At stop signs I do the same thing you do. I'll often use a car as a shield if the timing is right.

Repp5

Thanks for your input everybody.

It sounds like you're saying: "Safety First"
and, because the laws are designed to keep people safe, follow them in most cases.

SD Fixed

I don't have permission, if I did, it wouldn't be illegal. Its a choice. I have a choice to do what I do, and with that, I have the due regard to suffer punishment for such choices.

You want to put money down on that?

I can easily get 15 more minutes on my commute. 20 on an average day. 30 if its bad.

No, it's not legal in California. And we have recourse to use a cross walk. I would like to see the code where it's written that you "may run a red traffic light if the light does not change for a XX period of time. Show me that.

SD Fixed

EXACTLY.

I think of the saftey of those around, and mine. I don't want to cause motorist to freak out and hit me or others. And I'm not going to put myself in a risky spot.

ZackJones

https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/3834.0.html

Timely discussion - somone asks Bob to define the word stop.

Zack

Styk33

I guess others are inconvienced more than I am at red lights. If there is no car at the light and there is a crosswalk, I go over and push the button. Just running the redlight when you can use the crosswalk button to turn it green is just wrong (and illegal). The joys of being on a bicycle is you can be a pedestrian too.

I do know that not all intersections have crosswalk buttons, on some of my training rides there are none. If there is one, push it and use it. You are already stopped for the light, take a second or two and relax.

If you have to many signals in your route to work, change your route. I adjusted mine to include more to practice my sprinting. I used to ride a route that had almost half as many, just more stop signs.

OhiOH

I’m not sure it s illegal. Here is a quote from ‘The Pennsylvania Bicycle Driver’s Manual’ ( a great site: https://www.dot.state.pa.us/Internet/.../frmBikeManual )
Chapter 9 ‘Ways to Deal With Tough Situations’

‘If your bike doesn't trip the detector, you have to wait for a car to do it, or else you have to go through the red light. Going through the red isn't against the law, because the light is defective. If you ever have a crash or get a traffic ticket because a traffic light won't turn green, it's the fault of whoever installed the detector.’

I’m sure it isn’t he same everywhere, but many states do copy each others traffic laws.

SD Fixed

Not feasible really. And it wouldn't make that much of a difference, as an alternate route that has less lights adds five miles, less hills, and only removes 6 lights.

You are right, it is illegal. You are right, it is a saftey issue.

It's not that it's an incovienance for me. I won't bend the truth that much to say it's a hassle. I could do it your way. But it would be silly. It's just something I refuse to deal with if I don' t have to, and the reprocussions are severe enough.

If the tickette was immense, or the situation to dangerous, I'd do differently.

But guilt won't change me into it.

Rich Clark

I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that people who come to a complete foot-on-the-ground stop (or track-stand) at every stop sign and stay stopped for the duration of every red light are not riding in Eastern urban environments, where the blocks are short and there's a sign or light at the end of every one of them.

There are parts of my commute whgere there's so much traffic that I do have to do that, and my average speed is literally half of what it is during the other parts. Slavish adherence would easily add 20 minutes to each hour, if not more.

Because there's more to it than just stopping or not stopping. Sprinting to make a green light counts as not stopping, and is perfectly legal. It's also intensely stupid to sprint through an intersection in the city, especially one where the light is about to change. Much safer to slow down to the speed necessary to be sure the intersection is clear, then go on. This approach also keeps the cyclist out of the mad rush of traffic accelerating out of the light when it turns green, a very dangerous situation at many intersections where there's no shoulder.

I don't know how many people who aren't familiar with the densely-packed cities of the East, like Philadelphia, DC, New York, Boston, really comprehend what they're like as cycling environments. My 54 controlled intersections in 13 miles are on the route that makes the best possible use of arterials and highways. Any other route would have even more stops than 54.

And having ridden in both places, there's no comparison between NYC and LA. Cities in California are simply much more spread out, with longer blocks and wider roads, than cities in the East.

RichC

Andy Dreisch

Rich, I agree with all your points regarding stops and "slavish adherence". I only mildly disagree with the generalizations you make between East and West (I've lived and biked in both, and the South too, for that matter). The crummy commute route I have through SJ sounds very much like yours in Philly. I think it's more a matter of urban center commuting versus suburban versus rural, no matter where each type is actually located.

SD Fixed

I agree with you on SJ. I grew up there, and used to ride my bike to work a lot as a teenager. Down town SJ has only gotten worse light wise.

Andy Dreisch

What makes matter worse in SJ is that ridiculous contraption referred to as "Light Rail", the $1B bus-on-rails that serves only to consume otherwise valuable road surface. It does have the benefit, however, of "tripping" lights -- if you time it just right, you can zig and zag with the train such that it forces lights green (it has a higher priority) just as you're catching up to it again at the light. Then it stops at the next station, then you catch up for the next light, and so on. Do it just right (and average 20+ MPH on the flats) and you'll be able to beat about half the lights on First Street. Miss it, and you're screwed.

The only other people that know this trick are cab drivers. Funny how attuned to these types of things you become as a bike-commuter.

SD Fixed

If it connected to BART, it'd be worthwhile. I'll have to remember that if I ever go back. My mother sold her house there about a 2 years ago and move out to the Pleaston area. I used to work of Monterey Highway...

Andy Dreisch

Monterey Road is actually a perfect example of a route that has lights spaced far enough away that you gear up to 15-20MPH. Yet it has a million lights. The trick is to pace yourself so that, even if you "hit" the light, you're at least hitting the end of the red cycle, not the beginning. Monterey Road, because it's straight as an arrow, allows you to see pretty far so this is possible.

SD Fixed

I used to work at Ann Jans Feed right across from the Bold Night.

I also used to ride my bike down Montery Highway to Gilroy. When i was 13 my parents let me ride "where ever you want".

Imagine their suprise when I called them from Gilroy!

Pete Clark

Very good, courtesy of John Allen, who wrote the manual.

I will always wait for a car to trip the light for me, since there is usually one forthcoming. However, if one is not, I will not sit idly by like a court jester while the crickets chirp their derision at me.
I will proceed (with caution.)

May I add that no motorist would ever exhibit the patience that a lawful cyclist does?

Merriwether

Huh? Obviously I mean a moral permission, in saying that I don't think you have permission to break the law because it's inconvenient to obey it.

Of course you have a "choice"-- if you didn't there'd be little point in deliberating about what to do.


Well, who knows how you ride? I've commuted in both NYC and L.A. Traffic slows one down compared to the open road. But running lights and stop signs in traffic only saved me 4-6 minutes in a forty minute commute (back when I was younger, and didn't ride properly). But it saves you 30 min per hour? Ok, whatever.

Sheesh. Maybe a better idea would be for you to look up the code in your own state?

In any case, I wonder why you ask for a code that specifies an "XX amount of time" before you can run the light. You quote my post, but if you read it you'd see that I don't say the code in CA or anywhere else says that.

What I say is that a light that won't detect your vehicle counts as "inoperative". For example, CA vehicle code 21800 (d) (1) says: "The driver of any vehicle approaching an intersection
which has official traffic control signals that are inoperative shall
stop at the intersection, and may proceed with caution when it is
safe to do so. This subparagraph shall apply to traffic control
signals that become inoperative because of battery failure."

I claim that a light that won't detect a vehicle, and hence won't change, counts as "inoperative". If you think otherwise, then I guess you want to say that if a light stays red for hours and hours a driver has no legal recourse but to sit there. Let's just put it this way. It would be a rare judge indeed who would interpret the code in this way.

At the very least, that a light that simply doesn't detect a car counts as "inoperative" is a reasonable interpretation of the law. So the next question is whether a bicyclist has some special obligation to push a button on a crosswalk. But there's nothing in the code that indicates that. Anywhere.

But, as I said, you never know for sure what the wrong cop or the wrong judge will do.

However, this is a matter that is not specified as clearly as it could be in the vehicle code, and, particularly in the case of bicyclists, it's an underlitigated matter.

Rich Clark

If I was only talking about downtown I wouldn't have mentioned it. Eight miles of my route are inside the city limits, and the lights and stop signs are unrelenting the entire way.

RichC

Pete Clark

Common sense:

There is a vast difference between cyclists that blow through stops and those who exercise lawful judgement by stopping, then proceeding with due caution if the light doesn't change.

Traffic law has always been interpereted with latitude for motorists. This is where we get the precedent that prevailing traffic speed on the freeway can supercede the authority of the posted limit (within reason.) Hence, if everyone is travelling at 65 instead of 55, 65 becomes the limit.

Also, if a radar gun detects you travelling 44 mph. in a 35 mph. zone, you cannot be charged with speeding, not unless you are clocked 10 mph. over the limit.

xxmdaniel

Of course you have that choice. I think why many of us are railing on you is because we perceive that your actions reflect on all cyclists. In your case, I wouldn't worry about it. There are so few commuting cyclists in SD that I doubt that the entire cycling community there could make an impression on all those motorists one way or the other. I should add that SD motorists are fast, but have always given me more room and courtesy than I expected.

Law is more complicated than what's printed on paper. The law is what a judge or policeman wants it to be at a particular moment. There's also the notion of common law which is based on a the actions of this mythical 'reasonable person'. It's not reasonable for you to have to go hit the button although it might be a good idea for getting across some of those busy, fast S. Cal roads. If you were driving a horse and buggy (also a legal vehicle) that didn't get recognized by the sensor, then it is just as unreasonable to have to hop off the buggy and press the button. The horse might take off without you. I'm being absurd, but only to make a point. I could also ask where it is written that you must push a button if your vehicle isn't detected by the signal. I doubt the law makers gave it that much thought.

<p>Btw - I don't mean to pick on you (with 2/2 of my posts) I merely hope to elicit intelligent discussion that we can all benefit from. Thanks for welcoming me to the forum. I hope we can learn from one another.

SD Fixed

This has nothing to do with permissions.

As I said, ride with me, and you'll know. Otherwise, don't debate it and dismiss it.



[QUOTE]Sheesh. Maybe a better idea would be for you to look up the code in your own state?

Now you've gone and looked up the law. Cool. But you missed the point.

I'm not going to stop, even for a second when it's 530 am, the streets are empty, and I can see both directions. Not to put my foot down for a second to wait.

I'm not concerned with functioning signals in the morning. There's one that won't trip, and the others all appear to be on timers.

I've not made a claim about stop lights that won't trigger. Check my post. I said I will not wait for a light in the morning where I know it's safe for me to do so with out endangering myself or others. If I get a tickete, or I get hit, it's my fault, and my job to deal with the consequence with out whining.

Code, no code, triggers, moral authority or what ever: I don't when I'm comfortable with it.

My afternoon commute is a different story. The streets are filled with cars, and I owe due regard to not complicate thier driving as they owe me due regard not to intefere with my riding. When there is traffic I share the road.

You can go on and on, but until you realize that all you can do is say "it's not right" and deal with the fact that this situation exist, you'll just be typing.

And anytime you're in San Diego and want do the morning commute with me over the period of two days, we can clock it to validate my point. I'll bet you breakfast.

SD Fixed

No knock on me, I accept that people will differ with me. And if I found a valid counter point to my idea as to why it was ok, I would infact cease.

SD motorist are really wierd. When I drive, the freeways are a war zone. On the street on the bike, I find I get tons of room, people rarely invade bike lanes, and often will slow if they see me stuck behind a bus. One guy stopped to help me change a pinch flat once when I was "forced over" by him when he was making a right turn ~ he didn't see me, and admitted it. I learned from that to make sure I can see the eyes of the person in the mirror. Who knew?