JeffS

I think it's a safe bet to say that most everyone spending several thousand dollars on a bike has more than one...

BTW, when's the last time you saw anyone tour on a cross bike... credit card tour maybe... but you could do that on anything.

Schwinnrider

Civia has announced pricing AT INTERBIKE. Same as every other manufacturer.
Component spec really doesn't matter all that much on a bike such as the Civia. As a matter of fact, it's all just eye candy for 90% of road and MTB riders, too. Very few people need the few advantages Dura Ace offers over Ultegra, for example.

The ANT is handmade and custom. Is the Civia? Are the dinky dynohub lights going to be enough for most people, or will they be adding aftermarket lighting?

Riv sells complete bikes, or weren't you aware? I mean, you're pretty well-informed.

Schwinnrider

People tour on Cross-Checks, and Gunnar has pics of people who've toured on Crosshairs. All depends on how light you keep the load. Duh.

Look, people are free to buy these overpriced Taiwanese made hybrids if they want. But they're not going to succeed. If TREK and SPECIALIZED couldn't sell well-sorted-out complete commuter bikes(and they tried and failed), then QBP is going to fail horribly. Too expensive. If you can't sell them at a grand, you certainly can't sell them at $2500 without a good gimmick. They're not handmade, they're not light, and they're not appreciably different from other options.

If Civia is depending on newbies with money to support this brand---they're going to have to overcome the temptation of the newbie to buy the Raleigh Detour Deluxe or whatever is on the floor. It should be telling that TREK isn't even jumping on this bandwagon. Not a single fully specced commuter in their lineup. They've got the Shimano Coasting bikes, why? Because they're cheap and they think THAT (and Shimano does too) is the way to get new people on bikes.

If Civia is depending on enthusiasts with money to support this brand---they're going to have to overcome the fact that those people already have bikes, and usually more than one. Why buy this funky expensive hybrid when you can ride a 'cross bike, or a touring bike, or a hardtail MTB?

If I was a bike shop owner, I wouldn't gamble on stocking the expensive Civia. Maybe if I had a shop on Fifth Avenue and had cash to burn. But most LBS run on pretty tight budgets, and lots of Trek and Specialized dealers got burned on commuter bikes in the past. Again, when the two biggest bike makers in the US aren't following this trend, it's interesting. You don't think Trek and Specialized got where they are by not being able to spot a trend, do you?

That being said, IF Raleigh can get dealers to stock some Detour Deluxes, they'll sell, I think. $710 is a good price, and that leaves room in a lot of folks' budgets for important stuff----like BAGS and LIGHTS. A cheap dynohub light is no substitute for the high tech LEDs on the market now.

It's insulting that Civia wouldn't put bags on their bikes. For three grand, you can't design some laptop-holding panniers?

Barabaika

Actually, Trek has Soho 4.0 in its arsenal. Similar to the Alfine Civia (internal hub + disk brakes), but costs $1000.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes...n/soho/soho40/

Also, Trek showed a vintage style Simple City commuter. 3-speed for $400 and 8-speed for $700:
https://commutebybike.com/2007/08/22/...ike-spy-photo/

There are more interesting bikes at Interbike.
A titanium commuter from Seven with a titanium rack.
Photos from Interbike: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bike

For urban bikes, J&B created the Cayne brand which includes two new models for 2008. The Cayne Cykel is their 3 speed lugged steel cruiser with “scorcher” style swept back bars, coil sprung riveted saddle, cantilever brakes, and large-flange hubs. This bike will retail for about $450.
I wonder if they build it with an 8 or 9 speed internal hub, and add a chainguard and fenders.

badger1

+1 to that; I predicted this (above), and I still don't get it. What, exactly, is the problem? Can only speak for myself, but thinking of Civia's (and others') potential 'buyer profile' here's a few rejoinders:

1. I'm not a 'newbie' (whatever the h_ll that is); a dedicated bicycle commuter/light touring rider, with several years' experience
2. Don't have more money than sense -- far from it, but I am (if I find the right bike -- not saying at all that Civia is it, but it's in the running, pending closer examination/test reports etc.) prepared to spend a substantial sum (carefully considered) for something I think will meet my needs and prove durable.
3. Couldn't care less if a bike I buy is the only one in town, or one of several hundred -- the more around, the better as far as I'm concerned (that many fewer cars on the road).
4. I think Rivendells, and full custom bikes, are wonderful; fact is, given what I'd like on a bike (Rohloff, discs, cf fork, etc.) anything along those lines would cost far more than, e.g., a Civia.
5. (Summary of a couple of responses above) Fact is, the big cos. ARE 'getting into' this market -- and that includes Trek and Specialized (look at the latter's 'multistreet' lineup this year, or Trek's Soho/Sub/FX/7000series lineup), Cannondale, heck -- even Giant is dipping a toe in this year in North America. and
6. Using Taiwan etc. sourced frames is good for all of us, in that if this 'movement' picks up steam, we'll all benefit from having a range of really nice, useful bikes available at many price points.
End of rant.

buzzman

haven't looked at the price for this bike but I like it.

Nice to see bikes going in that direction. I'm happy with my commuter and am not in the market but I wouldn't refuse a Civia if one fell into my lap.

jyossarian

I likes. A 3 speed cruiser, lugged steel and probably heavy as hell, but damn, I'll take that over $2200 for a doodoo brown Civia.

Barabaika

Here are the specs and prices for Civia:

The specs that are common on each build are:

Frame Civia Hyland
Fork Civia Carbon
Headset Cane Creek S-8
Crank Shimano Alfine
Chain Shimano
Brakeset Shimano Alfine Hydraulic Disc
Seatpost Thomson Elite
Saddle Selle Italia C2
Stem Thomson X2 (31.8)
Handlebar Salsa Pro Moto 17 degree bend (31.8)
Grips ODI Rogue Lock-on
Tires Panaracer T-serv 700×28, with reflective sidewall
Fenders Civia Aluminum Fenders
Rear Rack Civia Aluminum Rack
Chainguard Civia Aluminum Chainguard
Headlight Shimano LP R600 Generator Powered

And here are the parts that are different for each build and the tentative pricing:

Rohloff Build: $3100
Shifter Rohloff twist-shift
Wheel (Rear) Rohloff Speedhub, 14 speed, DT Swiss x470 disc specific rim
Wheel (Front) Schmidt SON Dynamo, DT Swiss x470 disc specific rim
Sliding Dropouts Rohloff specific

Alfine Build: $2200
Shifter Shimano Alfine Rapid-Fire
Wheel (Rear) Shimano Alfine Internal 8-speed, DT Swiss x470 disc specific rim
Wheel (Front) Shimano Alfine Dynamo, DT Swiss x470 disc specific rim
Sliding Dropouts Alfine/Singlespeed specific

Derailer Build: $2200
Shifter Shimano XT Rapid-Fire
Wheel (Rear) Shimano XT Hub, DT Swiss x470 disc specific rim
Sliding Dropouts Derailleur specific

Singlespeed Build: $1900
Shifters n/a
Wheel (Rear) Surly New Hub, DT Swiss x470 disc specific rim

Cyclist0383

^^^^

Wow, that pricing in insane! The single speed starts at $1900 and they go up from there! Wow.

Why on gods green earth would a commuter bike need an expensive Thompson seatpost and stem, and lock on grips? Who is their target market? Anyone who knows what a Thompson seatpost or lock on grips are will also know that they don't add anything but price to the build, and anyone who doesn't know what they are will scoff at the incredibly high pricing of the bike.

JeffS

I thought we all understood that this forum consisted of a broad demographic, both of people and bikes.

If we were limited to just what we needed to get to work, everyone would be rolling around on whatever cheap bike they picked up at the dump for free, and the bike manufacturers would be free to move onto curing cancer, developing clean energy sources and cleaning up the environment - since noone would need to buy a new bike.

- On one hand we complain that manufacturers aren't addressing the commuting market, then we bash one that tries

- One group laments the cheap components of one model while another reminds us that we don't need anything above X groupset for a commute.

- Half the people welcome disc brakes, while others seem to believe that development should have stopped with the coaster brake or the centerpull

- Half the posters in here insist that we should be buying a custom frame at this pricepoint, yet the other half tells us that Ant/Vanilla/etc buyers are either stupid for spending the money or just becoming theft-targets.


We all ride completely different bikes, and should be fine with that instead of trying to steer others to our own tastes.

I've commuted on an old MTB, a road bike that cost more than some of the cars I've owned, two different cross bikes, a hybrid, a fixed gear, and several others. I'm in the market for an old vintage steel ride, and regret not getting on the Vanilla waiting list when it was "only" two years. I guess that makes me susceptible to the "more money than sense" label from some. I have no problems with what YOU choose to ride, but have considerable problems with the people that can't see beyond their own taste, or bank account.

Cyclist0383

^^^^

I have a large stable of bikes, including high end ones such as a Colnago, so I have no problem spending money on bikes, yet with the Civia line I don't see anything which sets it apart from other options in internal gear bikes except the price.

The Alfine hub, shifters, and cassette joint can now be bought for about $215. It's not terribly expensive stuff. Where is the high cost of this bike coming from? It can't be the frame, or racks, so what is it?

Schwinnrider

Neither the Trek or the Gary Fisher are fully specced like the Civia, NOR are they nearly as expensive. Cheap is the way to go. I think a lot of the problem they'll face is from dealers. How many dealers are going to be happy not being able to sell lights or fenders or racks or whatever after the sale?

Schwinnrider

Trek and Specialized aren't offering fully specced bikes. The Soho/FX/Sub/7000 aren't specced out like the Civias. They're a lot cheaper, too. Cannondale offers a line of hybrids and flat bar road bikes.

Giant has a couple----but they're aimed at the sub $1000 market.

Nothing wrong with making frames in Taiwan. I own TWO Taiwanese frames. But they were priced accordingly.

The 'movement' will only succeed IF THE BIKES ARE CHEAP ENOUGH. I don't think fully specced commuters will sell. But that's just me. They've been tried by companies with lots of money and well-established dealer networks, and they flopped horribly.

tcs

The Trek FX7.9 is MSRP'ed @ $2470. No fenders. No lights. No chainguard. No rack.

Overpriced? How about the Swobo Otis? Coaster brake three speed, no fenders, no racks, no lights, no chain guard. $700!

Mike F. @ ANT said his price on an Alfine-spec bike would be $3500. For the extra $1300 over the Civia Alfine you'd get a frame made by a Caucasian.

TCS

PaulH

Where parking is up to $20 per day and car traffic inches along at less than walking speed, $3,000 for a bike seems perfectly reasonable. How can you turn down an asset that pays for itself in a year or two?

Plenty of expensive bikes out there, but here is one where much of the cost goes to things that make it convenient and practical. It reminds me of what Mercedes were like 20 years ago, before the market research people started watering them down -- madly overengineered, but also high quality and immensely satisfying.

I think that the upscale commuter market makes sense to target. In fact the upscale commuter makes perfect sense as a status symbol. It proclaims that the owner not only has money, but is environmentally responsible, patriotic, sophisticated, and physically strong. Even a Ferrari won't do that for you, and, if it did, you wouldn't want to drive it to work in urban gridlock.


Paul

Cyclist0383

You are comparing apples and oranges. The Trek FX 7.9 is a carbon bike, clearly marketed at the yuppy casual rider crowd.

The ANT is a custom frame.

The Civia is simply an aluminum massed produced frame with some fancy parts, fenders, and a rack. There is absolutely nothing special about them from the info provided. They are just too expensive for what you get; there is not enough value in them.

Schwinnrider

Ziemas---you're right. the Trek FX 7.9 isn't a commuter bike at all. It's a carbon road bike which happens to have a flat bar. Low spoke count wheels, carbon fork, no fenders, clipless pedals! It's being sold to people who want to have the zoot factor of a Madone but are scared of a drop bar. I'd wager than 95% of them don't get fenders or racks mounted. Heck, it doesn't even appear to come with reflectors on the spokes.

I don't understand where the cost on the Civias is coming from.

Schwinnrider

You think RACE has something to do with it? No. Frames made in Taiwan should be cheaper---because it costs less to make them there. Otherwise you're getting gouged.

With judicious shopping, I'd wager you could build up a Gunnar Rock Tour for what the Civia Alfine is running. With discs, even.

buzzman

Yowsa! I doubt that I'd get to work much faster or more comfortably than on my REI Buzz, which I bought about 6 or 7 years ago for about 1/8 the price.

However, I don't really see the need for a chorus of disapproval when someone spends that kind of money on a commuter. If they like the bike so be it. I'm about to head out on a road ride where I'll see a herd of high priced road bikes that might see the light of day a total 20 weekends a year- some of which are worthy of the price tag even if they are seldom ridden (but such a waste!). My needs have changed over the years. My road bike does not see the miles it once did and my commuter is on the road 6 out of 7 days a week all year long. If I were to spend big bucks on a bike it would make more sense to me to put the money on the bike that gets the most practical use rather than the one that gets merely recreational use.

Since I use my commuter for errand and grocery runs and might not always have the safest place to lock it risking losing a $3100 bike doesn't personally appeal to me.

If I had a standard daily commute that allowed me to lock the bike in a safe, enclosed space and did not also use the bike as an all around "beater" I might be inclined to put down big bucks on something like the Civia or one of the other hi-end commuters. But would admittedly have to do some major mental gymnastics to justify such a purchase.

Barabaika

Let's compare the single-speed Civia for $1900 and this electric Schwinn for $1999.


Schwinn seems to be more convenient and practical for the same amount of money.
* Schwinn has a 7-speed internal hub
* Schwinn has an electric motor that will significantly help to ride in the hills and extend the commuting distance
* Schwinn has an expensive but light lithium battery
* Schwinn has a shaft drive. You can argue that it's inefficient, but it costs additional money and makes the bike uncluttered
* Schwinn looks cool and nostalgic

Barabaika

Why would it be heavy as hell?
They already sell single-speed Cayne Uno for ~$400, and nobody complains about the weight.

https://www.sunbicycles.com/sun/bicyc...es/uno/uno.htm

I-Like-To-Bike

The cost to the consumer (i.e price) is coming from the same place that $100+ bicycle helmets come from.

bikertrash

I don't think its wholly that way, though I can agree there are snobs in every catagory. I guess the question here is what makes this bike worth the asking price. All I see is a normal and well designed commuter machine. It is made to be lightweight. Now the problem is what purpose is having a light carbon fiber fork when you load up 20+ pounda of gear. I see an ANT bicycle and I see a bike for someone dedicated to commuting. I myself hope to get a Thorn Sherpa frame eventually. I see this ride and it just appears to be something a poser would get and use to talk of the sacrifice he's making for the environment.But then that's just my opinion. If it gets some limousine environmentalist out of his SUV and onto a bicycle, hey I guess its filling a niche.

badger1

Oh well -- my last foray onto/into this thread: comments like this (in general) just elicit, from me, "I rest my case!" Why, WHY do you and others assume that someone who is interested in this particular bike, with its particular spec. and set up, is a "poser" and not a "dedicated comuter"?? To my mind, this is -- as I said earlier -- reverse snobbery in its most revolting form. To repeat: I just don't get it. You mention ANT: someone earlier commented that ANT says that $3500 would be their price for an Alfine commute bike; so, I'm extrapolating from that that if I want an ANT Rohloff, I'm going to be paying about $4200 to 4500 -- thereabouts. Don't know if discs (which I happen also to want) factor in here. So, by your reasoning if I spend say $4500 U.S. for an ANT equipped the way I happen to want it, I would qualify as a "dedicated commuter", but if I (or anyone)spend $3200 for a comparable Civia I'm a "poser" and (by extrapolation from your comments) NOT a "dedicated commuter," but rather a "limousine environmentalist." So, putting several contributors' viewpoints together here, it would appear that to prove one's 'street/environment cred." one has to either spend as little as possible OR drop a whack on full custom -- anything else just won't do! Fascinating; however, I'm reminded of Hurst's (Art of Urban Cylcling) comment that for many, belonging to an exclusive cult is one of the main attractions of cycling, not cycling itself.

Schwinnrider

You seem to be missing the point. Spending money isn't the problem, since there are plenty of people who'd happily ride an ANT. There are people here who commute on Rivendells, I'm sure. The issue is why are Civias so expensive. They don't seem to be worth the money.