CliftonGK1

Finally got a leather punch and laced up my B-17 Champ Standard. After a failed attempt of lacing with leather lace (which looked great, but snapped on the maiden voyage this morning) I replaced it with plain old Kiwi brand shoestring.
I used a Sprenger Herm leather punch to pop the holes in the saddle. The thing cuts through the leather like a fish through water. The saddle is totally revitalized now. Torquing the tensioner bolt just wasn't doing the trick because the hammocking was taking place due to the skirts splaying out. No chance of that now! 2000+ miles on it, and going strong.

nashcommguy

That's brilliant! Besides, CliftonGK1 your posts are always so good and well informed it just didn't seem right that no one would respond to one of yours. And seriously, that's such a simple and effective way of dealing w/t problem I'm surprised the Brooks people didn't design a model w/those capabilities built in. Maybe some grommets for added strength?

AEO

ah, that gives me an idea...
I was trying to fix that hummocking issue as well

CliftonGK1

Brooks does offer a B-17 Laced model. I saw it on Wallingford's site and I looked at their "Butchered and Tied" page to see how other people had chopped and laced their Brooks saddles.
While grommets would add strength if the leather was thinner, I think there would be two problems in this application:
1) The lace holes would have to be further apart to accommodate the grommet face diameter. It would make it difficult for the adjustability in the lacing that you have with selecting from multiple smaller holes which allow you to tension up specific areas.
2) They're a potential friction point. If they don't lay flush or countersunk on the edges, you could catch your shorts on them or cut yourself.

nashcommguy

Yeah, yeah, both points are spot on. The way you've done it allows for a variety of tightening positions. I hadn't thought it through enough.

CliftonGK1

Be sure to use a good leather punch when making the holes. If not, you'll get ratty looking edges which a) look chumpy, and b) make it difficult to push your lacing through.
Single punch, hammered hand tools are durable, cheap, and make nice holes. They're also a pain in the butt to use on the side edge of a bike seat. The Sprenger Herm rotary punch has 6 hole sizes, and it's double leveraged so it will punch through leather up to 1/2" thick without problems. The C.S. Osbourne rotary punch will work, but it's a single leverage punch so it takes more effort.
The difference is in the price. Single hammered punches are usually around $10/ea (and you should have a self-healing cutter mat and a rawhide hammer to keep them in good condition) The Osbourne rotary punch is around $20, and the Sprenger is $50.

Measure your hole guide marks based on a 90 degree angle to the rails, not relative to the embossed logo on the skirts. The logo is hand stamped, and it's not at the same place on each side! Use a pencil to mark the bottom edge of the leather, and measure your distance up the skirt from there. You can put a dent in the skirt with the pencil to mark where to punch each hole. I used a 3.5mm punch to fit a regular shoelace through with little room to spare.

Rick Smith

After watching my b67 slouch into an uncomfortable hammock, I bought the Osbourne rotary punch after seeing this thread. Since then, I've laced it and my b17 up and never looked back.

The saddles are like now, but old at the same time. Meaning: I've worn them in and the lacing up didn't detract from that labor, but at the same time, it shored up a flaw in the Brooks saddles - the droop that came a lot quicker than I imagined it would.

So now all I'll have to do is tighten the laces every now and again or replace them (but probably not, since they're not being retied constantly.)

2,000 miles on each saddle and the lacing was required... was this always the case with Brooks? I proofided the b67, but not the b17.

Thanks for this thread! What a great help.

Addendum: I was able to get away with just four holes on each side of the saddle... I'll post pics.

mandovoodoo

Mine came with lace holes, on a Bob Jackson I got in ?? early 1970s maybe???

Schwinnrider

2000 miles and sagging? That seems odd. I have 4000 miles on my B17 and there's no sag at all. Haven't touched the tension screw, either.

yohannrjm

It will depend on riding style (and, to a lesser extent, luck).

Someone who 'sits' on the saddle (with the saddle height at, or lower than, the handlebars) will put more weight on the saddle, thereby stretching the leather more than someone who rides with the saddle (much) higher than the handlebars.

An aggressive rider will carry a lot of his/her weight on the legs and arms, using the saddle as a fulcrum, more than as a seat. So there will be less stretching than that caused by less aggressive riders.

The above two comparisons are for people of equal weight......of course, not everyone weighs the same, and heavier weights on the saddle will stretch it sooner.

Also, some people sweat more (even on their butts). This will wet the saddle on a long ride, and COULD cause increased stretching (this is pure speculation BTW).

These (and other reasons) could explain the difference in stretching of saddles between two users.

Finally, all the saddles themselves vary.

Rick Smith

That'd be me. I don't ride hard (or aggressively) to work (commuting is the chief reason I'm in the saddle) and the set up is as you describe. I'm rarely out of the saddle.

The sides of the saddles flared out over time, though the rest of the saddle broke in well. Once I was able to pull them back in, the issue went away.

Edit: I shoulda taken 'before' shots.

Another edit: I'm 140lbs, which is one reason why I was surpised at the flaring.

Schwinnrider

I ride with my saddle at the same height as my bars and am also rarely out of the saddle. I weigh between 150-175 pounds, depending on the season. I have no flaring. I wonder what those who have experienced flaring have done differently than I.

yohannrjm

Schwinnrider -
I did not mean that the flaring could be avoided by not sitting on the saddle at all. We all spend time in the saddle.

I commute in to work every day. I also weigh 175 -180 lbs. However, by saddle is several inches higher than my handlebars. I also ride aggressively. My butt is always on the saddle (I almost never climb out of the saddle). Still most of my weight is supported by my legs, and a smaller proportion by my hands/shoulders. Only a very small proportion of my weight is being supported by the saddle, which is still very stiff (but comfortable).

Different people ride differently. What affects the saddle is how much of weight is being supported by it (on average), not how much you weigh. A 140 lb person could be putting more weight on the saddle than a 180 lb person, just based on their individual riding style.

No riding style is 'better' than any other, if you're comfortable riding the way you do. Saddle wear will happen, and CliftonGK1 used a good way to keep the saddle comfortable.

Rick Smith

The Rivendell catalog recommends this solution as well, and I guess even Brooks sells models with holes for this purpose -

CliftonGK1

Yep, Brooks sells 'em pre-punched. That's where I got the idea in the first place; Wallingford sells the B-17 Laced version, and I checked out their Butchered 'n' Tied page to see what other people have done to their Brooks saddles.
Can't say that I'm a big fan of the chopped and aero'd Brooks mods I've seen, but I think that hardshell aero saddles are kinda fugly, too. I love the look of the B-17, and I think that my laced saddle will look even better with the new accessory I'm getting for it: A Surly LHT complete. It's a little heavy as accessories go, but I really think it's going to bring out the classic lines of my saddle.

Schwinnrider

The B17 Laced version is also the pre-aged version. Brooks didn't sell the pre-aged version with laces at first, and apparently they had some complaints. The pre-aging makes the leather softer. I'm still curious why some people are having premature sagging of their saddles. I've heard that Brooks' leather quality is getting lower due to the increased demand, and stories like these make me think that's true.

I have two B17s. One was bought in 2003, and one was bought in 2005. The 2003 model is honey colored and has 2000 miles on it and is just really starting to break in. The 2005 model is green and has 4000 miles and is broken in but not sagging. Most of those miles were put on in 8 months of daily commuting.

I did follow the standard break in routine. Just a touch of Proofide at first and I rode on the saddle. No mink oil, no neatsfoot, nothing.

If Brooks saddles are going to require major surgery at 2000 miles then I think Brooks is going to lose some return customers. 2000 miles is not a lot at all. I think for someone who's going to buy a Brooks that is less than a year's riding.

CliftonGK1

It depends on what you consider to be 'premature sagging' for a saddle. I know the stories... "Oh, I've got 3000 miles on my B-17 and it's just starting to break in. I've got a Swift that's been handed down 3 generations and the tensioning bolt finally needed an eighth of a turn." etc...
I know why my B-17 started to sag. I can be totally honest about this: When I bought it, I was a big fat guy. 262 pounds, and I tend to ride kind of upright so all that weight was on the saddle. Heck, I've lost 30 pounds and I'm still really big and put a lot of hurt on a saddle. I've cracked plastic hardshell saddles in less time than it took to start wearing in my B-17.

It was considerably less than a year for me, but I'm still not disappointed with the quality. I've paid more for a hardshell saddle and snapped it in fewer miles (and there was nothing I could do to restore it after that.) I'm transferring my B-17 to my new bike in a month or so, and I'm sure I'll get a few more years out of it now that I've laced it up.
If Brooks is using a lower quality leather to meet the demand for their products, maybe they should consider lace holes in all their larger unsprung saddles (B-17, B-68, Team Pro and Sprinter.)

Rick Smith

I just finished an article in the latest Bicycle Quarterly where Jan Heine writes:

"As an aside, Mark's Brooks B-17 saddle was very comfortable, but was beginning to sag severely after only 3000km (1875 miles). It will need to be replaced soon. This is similar to my experience with a BQ test saddle.* Others have reported similar durability concerns with recent Brooks saddles."

* Jan writes about the odd sagging he experienced with his Brooks Team Professional Titanium in Bicycle Quarterly, Volume 6, Issue 1 (page 48).

Schwinnrider

Well, there you go. Brooks better get with the program or risk destroying 100 years of good reputation. If the regular B17s and Team Pros are sagging that soon, why not just ship the pre-aged ones already laced? Shame.

macteacher

how come it has no middle groove? Doesn't it 'hurt' your ...well..ur jewels?