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Old 01-30-08, 01:09 PM   #26
Ya Tu Sabes
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Wow, all I can say is, do NOT use your good iron for this. My wife would friggin shoot me if I melted plastic with her $80 Rowenta. It'd be like driving nails with my helmet.
Get an iron at a garage sale or something to do this with.
I just cram stuff in a plastic grocery bag. My panniers are old and crusty and have many holes in them, but a simple plastic bag and I can ride through a rainstorm and not have my change of clothes get wet.
Lucky for me (?!), I'm the only one the family who does any ironing, so I can do what I please with the iron (hence, my new hobby: steam iron juggling). And FWIW, no ironing boards or irons were harmed in the production of my ghettofabulous bag liner.
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Old 01-30-08, 02:05 PM   #27
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First, while they might not want me to sell custom furniture crafted from their boxes, (http://www.newstarget.com/011583.html) I really doubt that UPS, DHL or FedEx objects to my taking an object plastered with their corporate logo and dragging it all over town in plain view of everybody I pass. But, yes, if DHL/UPS/FedEx thinks the distribution to usage ratio is not to their advantage, despite the advertising value of the packages themselves, they'll tighten distribution of them. I doubt that that's going to happen. YMMV. Second, and more importantly, in our mail room we collect used bags for reuse because Tyvek, while made from a small amount of post-consumer content, is 100% non-recyclable in our local waste management stream. The only way to recycle it is to send it back to DuPont. Guess what? Few mailers or recipients bother to do this. Repurposing these waste products is about as positive a moral act as you can find, at least for those of us who believe in stewardship of the environment.
You must be either a lawyer or a tele-evangelist to think this way. If you're going to steal something, steal it and live with the guilt. That's between you and your conscience. But don't waste your time coming up with 5 or 6 reasons why it's OK to do something that you KNOW is really wrong. And don't think that anybody is going to buy that you--a thief--are practically a saint as well as a steward of the environment.
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Old 01-30-08, 02:09 PM   #28
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Lucky for me (?!), I'm the only one the family who does any ironing, so I can do what I please with the iron (hence, my new hobby: steam iron juggling). And FWIW, no ironing boards or irons were harmed in the production of my ghettofabulous bag liner.
Hilarious thread!

FWIW, I think your idea is promising. I might give up the wrap-everything-in-a-plastic-bag method and drag out my steam iron.
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Old 01-30-08, 02:17 PM   #29
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Wow, all I can say is, do NOT use your good iron for this. My wife would friggin shoot me if I melted plastic with her $80 Rowenta. It'd be like driving nails with my helmet.
Get an iron at a garage sale or something to do this with.
You could place a layer of paper between the iron and the bags, to prevent direct contact. This would also allow you to slide the iron around a bit (depending on how large the paper is).
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Old 01-30-08, 02:19 PM   #30
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You could place a layer of paper between the iron and the bags, to prevent direct contact. This would also allow you to slide the iron around a bit (depending on how large the paper is).
I think wax paper or parchment paper would work well.
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Old 01-30-08, 02:24 PM   #31
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I think wax paper or parchment paper would work well.
Well, you might end up melting the wax onto the iron. Parchment paper would work well though - it is resistant to heat and won't gum up the iron.
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Old 01-30-08, 05:27 PM   #32
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You must be either a lawyer or a tele-evangelist to think this way. If you're going to steal something, steal it and live with the guilt. That's between you and your conscience. But don't waste your time coming up with 5 or 6 reasons why it's OK to do something that you KNOW is really wrong. And don't think that anybody is going to buy that you--a thief--are practically a saint as well as a steward of the environment.
You know, you're right. I'm just a moral degenerate. I'll have to rethink the type of example I'm leading for my children. This could a formative event in my life.

Last edited by vincentpaul; 01-30-08 at 06:47 PM. Reason: My original post was no very nice.
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Old 01-30-08, 11:01 PM   #33
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You must be either a lawyer or a tele-evangelist to think this way. If you're going to steal something, steal it and live with the guilt. That's between you and your conscience. But don't waste your time coming up with 5 or 6 reasons why it's OK to do something that you KNOW is really wrong. And don't think that anybody is going to buy that you--a thief--are practically a saint as well as a steward of the environment.
Well, Rudi, I printed out this thread and brought it to the dinner table tonight. "OK, kids, Rudi thinks your dad is a thief! Here's what he says, what do you think? Is dad a thief, or is there a thinking error here?" Once the laughter died down we had some pretty serious discussions. "This guy sounds like Bush! You're one of the evil doers, Dad!" The discussion digressed to a review of dualistic thinking, manicheaism and fundamentalism (we've got 4 gifted kids, they tend to veer off topic). We steered back on topic, and here's what we came up with. 1) Its pretty extreme to take the above discussion and call somebody a thief. Kids, it is NOT ok to call somebody a thief if they use a shipping bag for something other than shipping, ummmkay? And its ok to take a few extra napkins at McDonalds to blow your nose with in the car, even though they're intended for use at the restaurant. 2) My 17-year-old, suggests that we contact a PR flack at Fedex for kicks. "Hi, I'm a customer of yours. I sometimes use your shipping bags to keep my files dry when I bike home. I try to take used ones, but sometimes I take new ones. Do you think that's stealing? Rudi thinks I'm a thief. I hope you don't feel that way. I'm not likely to be your customer tomorrow if you do. Do I have your permission to take them?"

And Rudi, even though you called me a thief, I'm not going to infer that you're an idiot.
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Old 01-30-08, 11:12 PM   #34
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Well, Rudi, I printed out this thread and brought it to the dinner table tonight. "OK, kids, Rudi thinks your dad is a thief! Here's what he says, what do you think? Is dad a thief, or is there a thinking error here?" Once the laughter died down we had some pretty serious discussions. "This guy sounds like Bush! You're one of the evil doers, Dad!" The discussion digressed to a review of dualistic thinking, manicheaism and fundamentalism (we've got 4 gifted kids, they tend to veer off topic). We steered back on topic, and here's what we came up with. 1) Its pretty extreme to take the above discussion and call somebody a thief. Kids, it is NOT ok to call somebody a thief if they use a shipping bag for something other than shipping, ummmkay? And its ok to take a few extra napkins at McDonalds to blow your nose with in the car, even though they're intended for use at the restaurant. 2) My 17-year-old, suggests that we contact a PR flack at Fedex for kicks. "Hi, I'm a customer of yours. I sometimes use your shipping bags to keep my files dry when I bike home. I try to take used ones, but sometimes I take new ones. Do you think that's stealing? Rudi thinks I'm a thief. I hope you don't feel that way. I'm not likely to be your customer tomorrow if you do. Do I have your permission to take them?"

And Rudi, even though you called me a thief, I'm not going to infer that you're an idiot.
I probably am an idiot. But I know that if you take something that doesn't belong to you, you're a thief.
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Old 01-30-08, 11:18 PM   #35
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Well, you might end up melting the wax onto the iron. Parchment paper would work well though - it is resistant to heat and won't gum up the iron.
I know. But I was remembering when we were kids we used to take autumn leaves, put them between two pieces of wax paper and iron them to make place mats or "stained glass windows." But maybe we put paper towel or something over the wax paper, I just don't remember.
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Old 01-31-08, 12:09 AM   #36
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1) Its pretty extreme to take the above discussion and call somebody a thief.

I call 'em like I see 'em. Besides, give me the credit I'm due. I believe that I was the first one to call you a thief.

Kids, it is NOT ok to call somebody a thief if they use a shipping bag for something other than shipping, ummmkay?

Again, see my previous response.

And its ok to take a few extra napkins at McDonalds to blow your nose with in the car, even though they're intended for use at the restaurant.

Sure it is... if you're a customer there. Try this some time: Walk into the local McD's, grab a stack of napkins, a handful of condiments, maybe some straws... you know, the 'freebies' at the counter. Don't purchase anything. Just walk out the door with a handful of stuff and see what happens the next time you show up there.

2) My 17-year-old, suggests that we contact a PR flack at Fedex for kicks. "Hi, I'm a customer of yours. I sometimes use your shipping bags to keep my files dry when I bike home. I try to take used ones, but sometimes I take new ones. Do you think that's stealing? Rudi thinks I'm a thief. I hope you don't feel that way. I'm not likely to be your customer tomorrow if you do. Do I have your permission to take them?"

Here's a better experiment. Forget about the PR flunkies, because their job is to make you feel important even if you are stealing supplies. Call the local distribution center and tell them you'd like a dozen of their largest tyvek mailers sent to your home address so you can use them to keep your personal items dry while you ride your bike. Count the seconds that pass before they ask you for your billing information. Then count the seconds before they hangup when you tell the operator you want them for free, since you usually just grab them from the local drop-centers.
Unless you're operating a business with a sizeable corporate account through FedEx, I don't think they're going to be threatened by the loss of a single customer who admits to stealing their office supplies.
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Old 01-31-08, 10:56 AM   #37
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[quote=CliftonGK1;6082320]

Arrrghhh, I give up. You go your way, I'll go mine. I'm not going to feel guilty about taking an occasional tyvek bag from a mail center and using to stow a file into. Your guilt may differ.

BTW, isn't it theft to use a copyrighted image in an avatar? Just wondering.

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Old 01-31-08, 12:24 PM   #38
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[QUOTE=vincentpaul;6083900]
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BTW, isn't it theft to use a copyrighted image in an avatar? Just wondering.
Nice try. While the comic and characters are copyrighted, I'm not using them for commercial use... and technically, since the text is a quote from a another work, the overall composition is satire, which is protected under fair use clauses.

Thanks for playing. Wanna try again?

P.S. I've got permission to use the other two images in my signature.
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Old 01-31-08, 01:14 PM   #39
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Your usage is _not_ protected as satire, since its not a one-off commentary being used as a satire qua satire. Satirical usage is not per se a non-infringing use. Even satirical images are infringing when the purpose of the image's use is to conflate the identify of the protected work with the user of the image. Oh, my gosh, that's just what an avatar does! You use the image repetitively to identify yourself; the whole point of an avatar is to identify yourself through the image. If a notice of copyright infringement under the digital millennium copyright act were to land in your service provider's mailbox, I doubt you'd mount a successful defense. On the other hand, although your usage is probably infringing, its a paltry infraction that's not likely to attract the ire of the copyright holder. Most publishers think that minor infringements are probably in their best interest. On the other hand, "fan sites" are easily shut down when the owner of the copyright choses to exercise the option. That most publishers view fan sites as in their best interest and leave them alone is nice, but its not necessary. The law is on the copyright holder's side.
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Old 01-31-08, 02:12 PM   #40
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I use the shopping bags for my feet.
So do I...
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Old 01-31-08, 03:27 PM   #41
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You must be either a lawyer or a tele-evangelist to think this way. If you're going to steal something, steal it and live with the guilt. That's between you and your conscience. But don't waste your time coming up with 5 or 6 reasons why it's OK to do something that you KNOW is really wrong. And don't think that anybody is going to buy that you--a thief--are practically a saint as well as a steward of the environment.
I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not taking shipping envelopes makes someone a thief, but I am going to object to your lumping together lawyers and televangelists. Lawyers (like me) have detailed, published rules of ethics and are routinely punished for violating those rules. Televangelists, in contrast, operate almost entirely without regulation. (Lawyers also tend to wear better suits.)

Also, in my capacity as a lawyer, I will say that, whether or not we deem it unethical to take FedEx mailers for non-mailing purposes, I doubt whether taking one or two (or even ten over a long period of time) would constitute larceny, unless the mailers were accompanied by some message indicating that they are private property intended only for the authorized use of FedEx customers.

Lastly, for people who were wondering whether wax paper would work to protect the iron, the answer is apparently yes, because someone posted a link to a Make Magazine instructional video that suggests wax paper and makes no mention of possible waxy residue.
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Old 01-31-08, 04:25 PM   #42
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Look, I'd like to apologize to the OP for taking this thread off topic, and to the other posters for loosing my cool when accused of being a thief. I never really thought that I'd be accused of being a thief in this forum, but that's life I guess.

But I still think that if you find a way to obtain the shipping bags that doesn't weigh on your concscience they'll serve you well. : )
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Old 01-31-08, 08:46 PM   #43
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If anyone is interested in the stuff that messenger bags use google 10oz vinyl coated polyester (vcp) or 18 oz vcp. Baileys and Pac Designs use 10, most everyone else uses 18. I used 10 in my stuff, i like the feel of it better.

Also, if you dont want to pay shipping charges, go to a fabric store and ask for the plastic used to cover furniture, like your crazy old relative uses. Cheap, clear, and extra waterproof.

In my quest to have everything organized in my bag I made a document sized cordura pouch that works well.
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Old 01-31-08, 08:51 PM   #44
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You can buy multi-gallon zip-lock baggies...check at camping places.

With ANY waterproof bag, especially a home-made one, don't trust it all the way. (With factory-made dry-bags, leaks are a common problem on canoe trips). If it's actually rainy, double bag or whatever.
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Old 01-31-08, 09:03 PM   #45
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If anyone is interested in the stuff that messenger bags use google 10oz vinyl coated polyester (vcp) or 18 oz vcp. Baileys and Pac Designs use 10, most everyone else uses 18. I used 10 in my stuff, i like the feel of it better.

Also, if you dont want to pay shipping charges, go to a fabric store and ask for the plastic used to cover furniture, like your crazy old relative uses. Cheap, clear, and extra waterproof.

In my quest to have everything organized in my bag I made a document sized cordura pouch that works well.
Seattle Fabrics has 10 and 18 oz vinyl liner for decent prices. I used it when I made my fiancee's computer bag.
Most craft stores like JoAnn Fabrics have some sort of vinyl fabric. From another forum, someone suggested using vinyl tablecloth fabric to make a bag liner.

The only thing to be careful with is the 18 oz vinyl. Many home craft machines won't stand up to sewing through a couple layers of it. Use a denim needle, waxed thread, and put some water on the seam before sewing it to help the needle glide. If not, it will start to 'pull' and you'll wreck your stitch tension and tangle up your machine really bad.
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Old 01-31-08, 09:20 PM   #46
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ive had good luck with rocky mountain fabrics. Seattle has charged alot for shipping when ive bought from them before.

And definetly use heavy duty needles, usually called denim needles. 100% nylon thread too, so it wont rot.
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Old 01-31-08, 09:54 PM   #47
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With ANY waterproof bag, especially a home-made one, don't trust it all the way. (With factory-made dry-bags, leaks are a common problem on canoe trips). If it's actually rainy, double bag or whatever.
If you're using a SilNylon waterproof cloth, use an overlap seam with a double stitch, and coat the interiour of the overlap with seam sealant before putting in the second stitch line. The presser foot will compact the sealant into the needle holes and seal it up watertight.
If you're using a vinyl liner, glue the pieces before stitching and run a flat bead of seam sealant over the stitch line when you're done.

A tip: Don't use clear vinyl drybags in cold climates. The vinyl will get brittle and crack.
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Old 01-31-08, 10:19 PM   #48
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Try this some time: Walk into the local McD's, grab a stack of napkins, a handful of condiments, maybe some straws... you know, the 'freebies' at the counter. Don't purchase anything. Just walk out the door with a handful of stuff and see what happens the next time you show up there.
I'd probably get the same level of disinterested service I always get. The staff would be pleased that I at least left with the condiments/straws and didn't dawdle at the tables like the teens, alcoholics, and homeless that usually sit there.

But more pressingly, I have a question: at work we have a ton of old Tyvek envelopes from UPS, the USPS and the other one (with the red logo), but we now exclusively use FedEx for shipping. If I don't do anything with the old ones but let them fester with no intention of using them, that's OK, right? But if I use them for personal messing around, that would be stealing, yeah? The net effect to the company in either case is zero. Or am I stealing them by keeping them for any reason that doesn't involve using them with their respective companies? So should I get them to send a dude around to pick them up - a $12 expense to collect $3 of envelopes? Then they'll actually lose money.

Help me, help me, I'm so confused!
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Old 01-31-08, 11:26 PM   #49
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Help me, help me, I'm so confused!
Obviously. We've moved past this argument and gotten back on track with discussing waterproof bag liners.
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Old 02-01-08, 07:09 AM   #50
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" I came up with the following solution for a very inexpensive but sturdy waterproof bag liner "

Dude, there's a guy called Niles H. on the Touring forum you should talk to.
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