joelr

Here's the situation, I'm postering on poles at every corner, so there's no way I'm going to be riding in the street (since it is probably going the wrong way anyway), but I did ride through the crosswalk while the light was yellow. It turned red as I was in the intersection, and it seemed like just as I was about to get to the other sidewalk it went green, maybe, for the cars perpendicular to me. Now, normally that's no problem because they have to start their motors up which takes a second and they aren't going fast. But this one guy was going abotu 30 mph because he knew the light would be green just as he got to the intersection (I've done the same thing myself numerous times, I'm guessing it is legal, right?). A truck was blocking his view at the light so he couldn't see me coming, and after slamming on his brakes, he still hit me at maybe 10-15mph I'm guessing. My helmet was a great asset, and I'm sure I'll need a new one. My front wheel was bent out of shape and my brake cable broke, as well as my mirror. I flipped over the bike and hit my leg and shoulder on the ground but so far it doesn't seem serious, just some bruises.

Now, does this sound like my fault for trying to race through the yellow, or his fault for going through the green at too high a speed, or is the law unclear about this situation? He offered to pay for any damages to the bike, and I'm sure he can afford to, since his business card says he is the lead engineer at Lockheed Martin(!). I'm not sure if I should get his insurance company involved - why would I? Maybe get money for pain and suffering, or job time lost? But it seems like they might just say it was my fault and I'd get squat, right?

Also, I'm fairly certain no bones are broken but I really don't know how I would tell if they were fractured or whatever, since I don't believe I've ever been hit by a car before or even broken a bone. Is it really important that I get an X-Ray ASAP? Btw, I'm 18 years old, so I'm not that brittle yet.

As for the future, I plan on not going through the tail-end of yellow lights if I can't see what traffic may be coming laterally.

Raiyn

That one's all you. He had the green and you were in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Next time don't run the short yellows

Kev

There normaly is a couple second delay from where the light is actualy red in all 4 directions at the same time. I'm betting that he as on verge of running that red light and was predicting it to change to green is reason he hit you, but you were in the wrong if the light was actualy yellow when you entered the crosswalk that is illegal even for a car, if it turns yellow while you are in the intersection you have the right to proceed through.

So in essence I would take the loss and pay for the bike yourself since legaly you are at fault, even though you could possibly say he could possibly have started in the intersection while it was red.

Now if he agreed to pay for damage no reason to get insurance involved if there is no serious injury.

Chris L

Yep, gotta agree with the others here, that one was your fault. In all likelihood you would have been safer riding on the road rather than the crosswalk in anycase, but if you get hit when the other guy has the right of way, you can't really blame anybody else.

chewa

I only partly agree with the others. You were wrong to cross, but a driver (or a cyclist for that matter) should only ever be going as fast (within the limits) as they can stop.

i.e It's no excuse for him charging round a corner if he can't see what's round it or past an obstacle.

Bit of fault on both sides I think, but his more than yours

LittleBigMan

The letter of the law would say that the cyclist was at fault, and I'd have to agree that entering an intersection on yellow is not only technically illegal for a vehicle, it's even more dangerous for a cyclist since yellow lights are far too short for cyclists to always get through them on time, even if entered on green.

But the motorist was gambling by timing the light so closely, especially with an obscured view. The right thing to do would have been to time the light so as to flow smoothly with traffic through the intersection, instead of zooming past the stopped cars. The fact that he offered to pay for damages suggests that
he was aware he was driving unsafely.

(Glad you're ok! Watch out for motorists, they often forget they are driving a huge missile!)

DanFromDetroit

I am inclined to agree with chewa. I think that the motorist has a duty to keep his car under control at all times. It sounds to me like this guy was a bit "out of control". He was going a bit too fast or paying just a little bit less attention than he should have been to bring his car to a complete stop without hitting you.

That being said, you won't be winning any prizes for safe and effective cycling if you keep this up. I would contact his insurance company about the bent wheel. Your reward for being in a hurry is to replace your own helmet.

Count yourself lucky.

Dan

Toki

Though the law is different from place to place, the standard that I have always learned (in Texas and California) is that the light only indicates whether or not a vehicle can *enter* the intersection. If the light was yellow when he entered, he had right-of-way (yellow is the same as green for this situation). Any vehicle entering an intersection regardless of the light still has the responsibility to make sure it is clear before entering.

From a vehicle vs vehicle standpoint, I would say the motorist was at fault. Of course, right-of-way means very little when a 2 ton vehicle slams into a 20 pound bike.

joelr, to keep the good karma going around, do something nice for someone. You were very lucky so pass it on.

Oh yeah, and buy a new helmet since they are not re-crashable. If you plan to keep riding like that, you may want to consider a motorcycle helmet.

- Jeff

RiPHRaPH

for example: you do not want to get in an accident with a cyclist in california. a firend of mine was driving his car and went to turn into a mall parking lot. there was a cyclist riding towards him, and while my friend slammed on the brakes when he saw the cyclist and NEVER HIT HIM the cyclist swerved and went down.....my friend's insurance company just settled with the cyclist for $250,000 because they thought they couldn't win in court.

here in illinois, the supreme court has made it clear that cyclists, while they are allowed to use the road are not the INTENDED users of the road, thus there is limited liability for motorists.

i was always taught that you must control your vehicle, making sure that you are not going too fast for conditions, making sure you give yourself enough braking distance, etc.

i always thought that a tie (accident) goes to the runner (pedestrian, cyclist)

pel-o-ton

Sorry, I have to lay fault in this case with the cyclist. Citing the fact that a vehicle should be under control applies to both the cyclist and the driver of the car. Racing to enter an intersection on yellow, while not having enough time to clear the intersection before his light turned red, was the primary cause of the accident. A motorist approaching an intersection at 30 mph anticipating a green light is not proceeding in an unsafe manner. He also was obviously paying attention to the roadway in front of him, which allowed him to slow considerably before impact. I do agree that being on the road rather than crosswalk would have been safer, and may have even prevented this unfortunate accident to happen in the first place - several additional feet of visibility and ability to stop on the part of the motorist! I don't take the motorist's offer to pay for damages etc as an admission of guilt at all - I think he was simply being kind. Responsible or not, he was aware that he played a role in the damages, and felt personally obligated to make things right.

LLCoolJessie

You should really have notified the police and gotten a report at the scene.

Here in NJ, the insurance company doesn't take you seriously if a car accident lacks a police report.

Also, our law seems to dictate that anything you hit with the front of your car is your fault. If a ped runs out in the street in front of you, you're required to stop.

This guy offered to pay to fix... you should take the money, clearly he feels guilty - and thinks he's pretty lucky to get away without a ticket for reckless driving.

I see no one mentioned the X-Ray. Did you hit your head and smash your helmet? Any ringing in your ears, nausea, dizziness or sleepiness? Then you might have a concussion and possible skull fracture.

As for your leg and such, if it doesn't hurt, you're likely ok... but an x-ray never hurts... (ok, I guess a few thousand would technically kill you...) ...Some fractures can go unnoticed and end up healing incorrectly.

In the future, try to pretend the people in the cars are actually trying to kill you. Go on green, not yellow.

joelr

I agree now that it is very dangerous to enter on yellow, however I must point out that PA law says that it is perfectly legal to enter the intersection any time before red and continue through if it changes to red while you are in the intersection. Of course that may not apply to pedestrians, which is what I was pretending to be, going through the crosswalk. I've also heard that vehicles are not supposed to go through intersections faster than 15mph but that doesn't sound like a very practical law, if it even is one.

AndrewP

The motorist was at fault because you are not allowed to enter the intersection on green unless it is clear.

joelr

Btw, if you want the irony for the day, the car hit me after I hit a pedestrian in a similar situation just hours before. I was going through a yellow and the ped walked out on the crosswalk at a time when I was in the middle of the intersection, he wasn't looking and I couldn't brake fast enough to avoid hitting him. Luckily it was a very slow collision and he didn't get knocked down, but I was so dumbfounded that I actually hit a ped that I forgot to ask him if he was OK! I stopped and said "Uh..." and he walked away. So I guess it's only fair that I get hit after that.

Oh and to those who think that you should never go through yellow, I also got hit by a car once BECAUSE I stopped at a yellow. The driver said he didn't expect me to stop. There's no warning that a green light will turn yellow, so if you want to be strict and never go through a yellow, you have to jam the brakes real hard if you are close to the intersection.

I say, go through the yellow if you don't have time to brake for it safely, but if you are far enough away to be able to stop for it safely, you might as well because you'll catch the tail end of it at best going through.

ngateguy

Yellow does not give you the right to enter the intersection so the bike is at fault. I was ticketed in a car for not clearing the intersection by the time it turned red. If you are making a left turn and you are in the intersection when it turns red (waiting for traffic to clear) then you have the right to clear the intersection after a red light. It is totally the bikes fault here, the driver did use poor judgement by not making sure that someone wasn't going through the intersection but defensive driving is not the law.

Toki

Despite the legality of who was right and who was wrong, I believe that accidents always happen for more than one reason (ie., two people have to be in the wrong place at the wrong time). From a practical standpoint, a cyclist will lose a battle with a motor vehicle so "defensive riding" is a necessity to stay alive in urban areas. In Tokyo, I am constantly dodging cars, scooters, little old ladies, kids, people who talk on the phone while they ride, etc. I always have to have a finger on my brake lever.

joelr, I also noticed how you grasped the connection to your collision with the ped. What goes around comes around, my friend.

Stay safe.

- Jeff

Poguemahone

I'm not gonna comment on the legal aspects here, because I'm no lawyer and a lot looks absolutely hazy on this one. But two comments:

1) If I read this right, you were riding on the sidewalk (correct me if I'm wrong). This is an illustration of why riding on the walk is a bad idea, aside from the potential for pedestrian/cyclist collisions. I'd chalk it up to experience. By proceeding in the direction opposite the traffic, I doubt the motorist expected you, doubly so if you were on a walk.

2) Wait a day or two. If you feel no pain right after an accident, you might feel some in a day or two. Adrenaline can mask pain, and sometimes it just takes a day or two for it to really start hurting. In any collision, an accident report is a good idea, esp. if you went flying off a bike.

cerewa

"I agree now that it is very dangerous to enter on yellow, however I must point out that PA law says that it is perfectly legal to enter the intersection any time before red and continue through if it changes to red while you are in the intersection."

i don't think you've broken any laws YET.

"Of course that may not apply to pedestrians, which is what I was pretending to be, going through the crosswalk."

here's the legal problem: you're not really allowed to pretend to be a pedestrian unless you're off the bike. knowing this... if i were you i'd definitely try to keep insurance companies and police out of it.

as for the light being green or not: everybody's offered their opinion but the fact is that nobody knows exactly where the vehicles were when the light changed. sure, people can go by what they think they remember, but studies of situations like this says that people's memories are unreliable. i would hope that if this went to court, they'd keep that in mind.

i'm glad you were wearing a helmet! (and i'm glad i was wearing a new helmet, each of the three times that i've broken one.) in my opinion, any time you damage a helmet in a crash, it's an indication that the thing has saved you an incredible amount of hospital hassle.

randya

You need to check local laws. Some states require vehicles to completely clear the intersection before the light turns red; others give you the ROW until you finish clearing the intersection, as long as you first entered the intersection while he light was still yellow. However, if you were in the crosswalk, different pedestrian laws might apply.

Regardless of the actual legal situation, consider yourself lucky. A very high percentage of motorist-cyclist crashes occur in crosswalks, to cyclists that were using the sidewalk instead of the street. Generally, if you're riding on the sidewalk, you're supposed to behave like a pedestrian, including obeying the crosswalk signals and riding no faster than at a walking pace. Simply put, though, crosswalks and sidewalks are really no place to be riding your bicycle. If that's where you need to be to do your postering, you should probably be walking your bike, and not riding it. If you want to ride, use the street! I've postered before; I usually lock my bike, poster a couple block area on foot, then retrieve my bike and ride to the next spot.

On the other hand, it also sounds like the motorist may have jumped the light, and if his view was blocked, he was probably traveling too fast for the conditions.

So it sounds to me like their may be partial fault on the part of both the driver and the cyclist in this case.

Did a police report get filed? Did you get the drivers info (DL number, tag number, insurance info)? Names and phone #s of witnesses? If not, you probably don't have any further recourse...

lsits

I found the following on John Forester's web site. If you don't know, he's probably THE authority on vehicular cycling in the United States. He describes a situation similar to the one mentioned above:

"The typical situation is when a cyclist is crossing a multi-lane street from a minor street that carries infrequent and slow traffic. The traffic signal provides a green phase for the traffic on the minor street whose duration depends on the number of vehicles waiting in the queue (or on the time for the queue of waiting traffic to clear). If only one vehicle is in the queue a minimum-duration green appears, which is then followed by the yellow, which in turn is immediately followed by the conflicting green. If the single vehicle is a bicycle, the cyclist may well be only half-way across the intersection when the green appears for the main-road traffic. The typical car-bike collision occurs between a cyclist and a motor vehicle from the cyclists' right. The motor vehicle is in one of the lanes nearest the curb while vehicles still stopped are in the lanes nearest the center. The vehicle that becomes involved in the collision has started up, or speeded up, at the new green when the cyclist is hidden from the sight of its driver by the vehicles still stationary in the number one lane. Unquestionably, the colliding motorist has disobeyed the law by entering an intersection on a new green without seeing that traffic already in the intersection has cleared. However, because these accidents occur it is important to understand why they occur and to devise the appropriate countermeasure."

If you are already in the intersection or can't stop in time, then you can procede . If you see the yellow and have time to stop then you should. The motorist has an oblication to make sure that all vehicles have cleared before proceding.

ngateguy

Mr Foresters assumtion does not hold true in urban situations traffic lights are generally more inclinde to be timed for a certain duration it is in lesser traveled areas that lights operate as he has stated.

lsits

In my area, the lights work exactly as described by Mr. Forester. The light tha operate on a strictly timed sequence are the exception rather than the rule.

AndrewP

If I cross the intersection on the yellow I pull out further into the street, so any cars making an early start from my right have more chance to see me and react.

danr

Glad you're ok.

Sounds like both your faults, but if he is offering to pay for damages, I'd take the money and run. I wouldn't get too greedy, or else he may resist. Insurance companies will hold you to the rules of cars (I know this from personal experience).

JCM800

Isn't it a violation to ride a bike in a crosswalk in the first place? Shouldn't the cyclist walk the bike across?

Regards.