Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 23 of 23
  1. #1
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Custom Build: Internally Geared Hub with Disc Brakes... Good Idea?

    Hi everyone,

    This is my first postÖ I have been a not-quite-daily bike commuter and utility cyclist for a while now and Iíve been making do with an older Trek hybrid that has served me well, but I think it is time for a fun, new custom bike. And I want to get peopleís opinions on what I have in mind.

    Here is what I have in mind: a custom build with a Soma Double Cross frame, Sturmey-Archer XRK8 disc-compatible internally geared hub, Avid BB7s, Mavic Open Pro rims and probably a Deore disc front hub. As for other components, probably a Sugino single-speed crankset, drop bars, 700c x 35 tires.

    I like the idea of internally geared hubs for city/utility riding, and I also like the idea of disc brakes. Iíve never had them before, but I feel like they are the future of cycling and I want to be forward-thinking on this project. I know that both those options are adding a few pounds to a build, but for urban cycling, that isnít a big concern of mine.

    I guess I am looking for thoughts on whether what I want to do is a good idea, feasible, etc. And if not, why not. Am I missing some basic logic that would dictate this to be a bad idea? Anyone else rocking a similar set-up? I know that Specialized has their Centrum line with both internal hubs and discs, but those are not particularly attractive bikes in my opinion. Why arenít more companies using this build?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    POWERCRANK addict markhr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    North Acton, West London, UK
    Posts
    3,783
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by UtilityBiker View Post
    ...Why arenít more companies using this build?
    People are slow to change their habits. It's a great idea, especially if you can buy a frame that will accept a carbondrive belt rather than a chain.

    No greasy chain to wear out or break, no derailleur or tensioner, no worn out cogs and chain rings, no freds on your leg, not having to fiddle with barrel adjusters to get the indexing correct, etc.

    http://www.rohloff.de/en/home/index.html

    http://www.carbondrivesystems.com/
    shameless POWERCRANK plug
    Recommended reading for all cyclists - Cyclecraft - Effective Cycling
    Condor Cycles - quite possibly the best bike shop in London
    Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights!

  3. #3
    Senior Member BCRider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    The 'Wack, BC, Canada
    My Bikes
    Norco (2), Miyata, Canondale, Soma, Redline
    Posts
    5,435
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Disc would be nice. I've been wondering how well the internal hub brakes compare to rim and disk brakes for stopping power. Certainly disc is my current favourite. But even those get their share of grunge on them from wet and sloppy commuting routes. An full internal gearing and braking combined with something like that Carbondrive setup would be total Nirvana! And I'm not talking about the music group!

    Also I think you're going to be using some other frame unless you get some brake mounts brazed on. The Soma Double Cross is set up for rim brakes only. I think what you're actually after is a bike with an EBB if you want to use discs AND run with no derailleur to tension the chain.
    Model airplanes are cool too!.....

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Portland OR
    My Bikes
    Trek Portland
    Posts
    8
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    On a recent ride, I came upon this bike:
    http://www.ahearnecycles.com/pages/bradcommuter.html

    It looked great in person. Although this is a custom frame, this build shows your requirements are feasible and validates your ideas.

  5. #5
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by BCRider View Post
    The Soma Double Cross is set up for rim brakes only. I think what you're actually after is a bike with an EBB if you want to use discs AND run with no derailleur to tension the chain.
    This is an excellent point... didn't realize that the Double Cross didn't have disc mounts. And I should have noticed it has vertical dropouts too. I guess the Surly Cross Check with disc mounts and horizontal dropouts would solve both problems without needing an EBB. Any other frame recommendations for this sort of project? I don't want to drop more than $500-$600 on the frame... it's already a lot of expensive components I'm looking at for this project.

    And that Ahearne looks SWEET!!!!

    Thanks for the quick responses.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For discs and internal gear hub you really want either sliding dropouts (Civia) or eccentric bottom bracket combined with vertical drops, so that brake calipers and rotors are aligned.

    If going for the Sturmey 8 (XRK8), make sure you get the new model (coming after July) with its better shift mechanicsm, wider gear range, and promised better durability.

    My personal suggestion if you want internal gear hub and discs is Sram I-Motion 9. More durable than Sturmey 8, wider gear range, quick release cable connection, and you can run normal size chainrings because direct drive is 5th gear instead of 1st.

    Now, if some of the frames that interest you don't support discs, but do have horizontal dropouts, consider a rear drum brake. Based on my experience, I highly suggest the Sram S7 Drum brake unit. You can run a disc in the front, where it matters, and have excellent sealed braking in the rear.

    BTW, the very durable Sram S7 is running about $150+$25 for the shifter right now, compared to $120 for the Sturmey 8 disc and $230+$35 for the shifter for the Sram I-Motion 9 disc (www.aebike.com)

    Should you also be interested in the Shimano Alfine, you can get them for $230 +$35 for the shifter from www.hiawathacyclery.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    BTW, other options:

    Trek Soho 4.0 (Shimano Alfine + Shimano disc brakes) $1099 MSRP

    ...or if you want to spend some money Civia with Rolhoff 14 speed or Alfine.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    KÝbenhavn
    My Bikes
    Kinesisbikes UK Racelight Tk
    Posts
    465
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by UtilityBiker View Post
    Hi everyone,

    Here is what I have in mind: a custom build with a Soma Double Cross frame, Sturmey-Archer XRK8 disc-compatible internally geared hub, Avid BB7s, Mavic Open Pro rims and probably a Deore disc front hub. As for other components, probably a Sugino single-speed crankset, drop bars, 700c x 35 tires.
    As I understand it then there are considerations to take when combining disc brakes and internal gear hubs. Normally one just slides the internal hub back or forth to achieve good chain tension, but disc brakes requires that the hub is in a fixed position.

    The fancy solution is sliding dropouts:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...iding_dropouts

    I guess that a chain tensioner or perhaps an eccentric bottom bracket could work too.

    The Soma Double Cross frame doesn't look like it supports disc brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by UtilityBiker View Post

    I guess I am looking for thoughts on whether what I want to do is a good idea, feasible, etc. And if not, why not. Am I missing some basic logic that would dictate this to be a bad idea?
    The "problem" with internal gear hubs are, that they can be a slow and troublesome regarding taking the rear wheel of, so punctures becomes at PITA to fix (I don't know the SA XRK8). Therefore people tend to put heavy, high rolling resistance tires on like Schwalbe Marathon+'s. In a 28 mm edition they add 1.5 kg or 3 pound of weight to the bike. This extra weight and rolling resistance combined with the slightly higher inefficiency of internal gear hubs may make the bike somewhat sluggish. For some this doesn't matter and they appreciate the somewhat reduced maintenance and high puncture resistance.

    Stiff forks for 700c wheels that can take disc brakes are not common and usually made of CroMo or aluminium and usually somewhat heavy compared to eg. a cross carbon fork for canti's/v-brakes.

    My point is just that you need to ponder whether you want a +30 pound "tank" or not, and if the features that makes the bike heavy are worth it for you and your riding style. For example you want drop bars but most internal gear hub shifters are "grip shift" and not easy to combine with drop bars in an elegant and intuitive way.


    --
    Regards

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    127
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have an Alfine set up on a horizontal dropout with discs. No problems, I ride Armadillos with Airlock self-sealing tubes. I have only ever repaired tubes (patched) with the rear wheel on the frame.

    http://stankertanker.blogspot.com/20...nkey-pics.html

  10. #10
    Senior Member pluc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Montrťal, QC, Canada
    My Bikes
    Surly 1x1 with Nexux 8 "Red line"
    Posts
    389
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    As it's been mentioned already, for the back wheel you'd probably be better off with a drum brake system. Discs and IGHs sound like hell to me if you don't use a chain tensioner (which I think we all try to stay away from), but I don't have any experience with them so I cannot say.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    For those avoiding drum brakes in the rear due to wheel removal issues, consider removing the torque arm bolt with a set of wingnuts. That way, removing the drum brake wheel would be scarcely more involved than no brake at all.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    307
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Either way it sounds like you are going to have a pretty sweet, and unique setup. Hopefully you get as much enjoyment from riding it as you do building it.

  13. #13
    Senior Member pasopia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    My Bikes
    soma double cross DC, giant reign
    Posts
    614
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The cross check doesn't have disc mounts. Maybe you could try the Karate Monkey, which has track ends and disc mounts.

  14. #14
    POWERCRANK addict markhr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    North Acton, West London, UK
    Posts
    3,783
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pasopia View Post
    The cross check doesn't have disc mounts...
    It doesn't matter - there are numerous cantilever to disc brake adapters on the market.

    random example - DDG disc mount.

    shameless POWERCRANK plug
    Recommended reading for all cyclists - Cyclecraft - Effective Cycling
    Condor Cycles - quite possibly the best bike shop in London
    Don't run red lights, wear a helmet, use hand signals, get some cycle lights(front and rear) and, FFS, don't run red lights!

  15. #15
    Senior Member Smallwheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    I'm in East Helena Montana for now.
    Posts
    1,315
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Drum front brakes work well too. I've read about several people who have used them and they all say that they almost never need to be serviced. Rain doesn't affect drum brakes.

    Disc brakes work great but they do need new pads every once in a while. When dirt gets on a disc and then gets clamped by the caliper it wears out faster.

    Drum brakes would allow you to use your original frame choice too. Just buy a quick release cable coupling that would help to repair flats faster.
    Smallwheels

    Take my stuff, please. I have way too much. My current goal is to have all of my possessions fit onto a large bicycle trailer. Really.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    194
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think IGH + Discs make for a great all purpose commuter. Especially if you've got weather issues, as having the road grime out of the casette and away from the braking surface will reduce the number of headaches for sure.

    Have you seen the Brodie Ocho?
    David in fla
    -Schwinn Crisscross
    -Raleigh Technium SS 52x16 aka "quadzilla"
    -07 Brodie Romax - SRAM, Ortliebs, Discs, Extreme Commuter!

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    194
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    http://hiawathacyclery.blogspot.com/...rosscheck.html

    Also, check that link for a way to not use a twistshift or trigger shift on an IGH. That's probably the way I'd go if I were building up a IGH/Disc/Drop bar bike.
    David in fla
    -Schwinn Crisscross
    -Raleigh Technium SS 52x16 aka "quadzilla"
    -07 Brodie Romax - SRAM, Ortliebs, Discs, Extreme Commuter!

  18. #18
    rhm
    rhm is offline
    multimodal commuter rhm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    NJ, NYC, LI
    My Bikes
    1940s Fothergill, 1948 Raleigh Record Ace, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1972 Fuji Finest, 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
    Posts
    12,717
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Internally geared hubs are great; I use a Sturmey Archer X-RF8 all the time, NuVinci frequently, and have also used AW's and Nexus-4. The freedom to shift at any time, even stopped, is pretty nice. But I suggest before you commit to one hub or another, work out the details of the gear ratios; for example if you put either an X-RF8 or a Nexus-4 on a bike with 26" wheels, you're going to want a very small front chain ring. Don't rule out the NuVinci; it's heavy, but it's the most pleasant shifting bicycle transmission I've ever encountered. And it's made-in-America, which is pretty unusual for high-quality bike stuff.

    Hub brakes are also great; I've used roller brakes and a drum brake on the front. Both give surprisingly good stopping power in all conditions. But they are a nuisance when you have to change an innertube.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    England
    Posts
    12,420
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The Shimano Alfine group combine shub gear and disc brakes.
    One of the best Alfine bikes is the Giant escape R SubZero. It has everything this style of bike needs:
    Eccentric bottom bracket.
    Vertical dropouts and hydraulic brake mounts.
    Full rack/fender threaded eyelets.

    I have looked at most of the bikes of this style and so many omit some vital feature. The issue of horizontal vs vertical dropouts has been touched on. I think discs work best with verticals,avoiding possible alignment issues but many fine bikes (Cube Hooper) use horizontals.
    Some of the alfine bikes opt for v brakes rather than discs which may be OK for some but my plan is to use all the best of modern technology to make a reliable, low maintenance all-weather commuter.
    The Giant is my Plan B, Plan A should be arriving Real Soon Now but supply may be restricted. I think manufacturers misjudged the demand for this style of bike.

  20. #20
    PatronSaintOfDiscBrakes dynaryder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    dropped and lost in Washington DC
    Posts
    6,244
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Surly's 1x1 frame has a 'pivoting' mount for the rear disc,so you can reposition it to accomodate changes in chain tension.

    If you're not set on 700cc wheels,there's also Swobo's Dixon(http://www.swobo.com/catalog/product...?cPath=201_204). If you can find a retailer,Rocky Mountain makes a turn-key IG+disc commuter(http://www.bikes.com/bikes/2007/city/metropolis.aspx).

    C'dale BBU('05 and '09)/Super Six/Hooligan8and 3,Kona Dew Deluxe,Novara Buzz/Safari,Surly Big Dummy,Marin Pt Reyes,Giant Defy 1,Schwinn DBX SuperSport/Qualifier,Dahon Speed Pro TT,Brompton S6L

  21. #21
    Nobody mconlonx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,484
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by dynaryder View Post
    If you're not set on 700cc wheels,there's also Swobo's Dixon(http://www.swobo.com/catalog/product...?cPath=201_204).
    The Dixon will also take 700cc wheels down to the 16" frame (rear wheel would need to be in the last half of the rear dropout).

    I had a Van Dessel Superfly which came with a Nexus 7sp hub and rear roller brake, front mechanical disk. That was also a great setup--don't discount the Shimano roller brake in the rear. With the roller brake and a fork that will take a disk, you could even get it to work with a vertical dropout bike like the Soma you referenced... chain tension issues aside.

    Say... if Hiawatha made an indexed bar end shifter play well with a Nexus 8 by using a travel agent, I wonder if the same thing could be used inline with an 8sp brifter...?

  22. #22
    bike rider jimmythefly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Seattle
    My Bikes
    83 Trek 500, 2x 90s Novara Randonee, Zion 737, Specialized Rockhopper, Nishiki Colorado, Univega Specialissima
    Posts
    282
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'd want to research that. I asked the guy who makes the "Travel Agent" adapters, and he said that shifters for shimano derailleurs actually pull a different amount of cable depending on what gear your shifting to, but that internal hubs pulled the same amount of cable for every gear. Obviously there's some wiggle room for dirty cables, etc, and so Hiawatha could make it work, but I'd love an in-depth examination before using a setup that could prematurely wear out the hub.

    Anyone here use the i-9 yet? can you comment on it vs. Alfine?

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    1,453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I'll try and test ride the Swobo Dixon that my LBS has pretty soon and give you some feedback on the i-Motion 9.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •