Don't forget Sakkit Bikes!
 

These bikes made by Robert Beckman are wonderful pieces of machinery.
They are dedicated touring/heavy commuting bikes with braze-ons for everything, they are lugged and brazed...everything about them is artistic, functional and heavy duty. As good as or better than Rivendell and Co-Motion. Check em out sometime.

http://www.coinet.com/~beckman/

Sweet!

Here's another smal;l company producing beautiful hand made lugged, low T silver-brazed frames of all types in Portland, Oregon.

http://www.vanillabicycles.com/

For heavy touring the Sakkit bike is probably the best thought out bike for that-but the Rivendell is more classic in design. So your right, for heavy touring the Sakkit is far better than the Rivendell; the Vanilla is not even close to either-it's just plain vanilla! I also think it's a tad better than the Thorn eXp only because you can get 4 water bottle bosses on the Sakkit 26. The Sakkit is also lug constructed which has been proven to be better at carrying heavy loads then fillet braze or tig welded frames; they also use redundant lighting and shifting systems-why? in case you have a problem in the middle of nowhere!

So the Sakkit would be an overkill for short tours, but for long tours this is really the only bike to have.

I would disagree. According to a few people I've spoken with about hardcore touring frames lugs aren't the choice they appear to be. Essentially what I've been told was that the basic idea of a lug can and does cause a certain amount of flex or shimmy under extreme load as you're dealing with the premise that a tube is inserted into a sheath(the lug)and then welded whereas a lugless frame that is built up with proper tubing and welds would inherently not have that area(in the lug)that could contribute to shimmy under load.

Granted we're talking about a situation that has many variables and in it's most extreme would be more than likely minimal but that said, there is more of a chance of shimmy with a lugged frame than with an equal build lugless frame. Basically, it's one less area for movement(e.g. flex/shimmy)when fully loaded under riding load.

Concerning classic designs... there is no doubt that lugged frames not only do their job in function as well as cosmetically... simply put, they look great but in talking about extreme situations-and that's what hardcore tourers are built for-there is a very real point to be addressed about lugs when it comes to shimmy.

The Vanilla is definately not built up as a hardcore tourer(however they are beautiful, no doubt)... even Sacha admits this-however when I spoke to him he certainly is interested in exploring those areas of production at some point.

One more thing concerning frames for hardcore touring where it's all about weight and support... I'll give specifics about my situation to illustrate this-

I am just under 400lbs currently and even though my goal weight is around 230-240lbs ultimately I will be touring starting at my current weight with appx. 90-100 additional pounds in my panniers as well as a loaded trailer. Essentially we're talking about a very heavy, fully loaded touring tandem weight on a solo bicycle. After having talked to Sacha at Vanilla, 3 other frame builders who shall remain nameless based on their less than positive attitudes(basically saying NO solo bike could support all that weight), Co-Motion and Robin Thorn at SJS Cycles... all of them agreed hands-down that a lugless design would make the most sense and out of those guys only Robin Thorn 100% guaranteed that the bike would not only hold up to all that weight for years BUT it would ride superbly... and that bike was the Thorn eXp.

Of course, we'll see! My eXp will be completed around the first of 2004.

Istanbul_Tea

Please keep us updated on the new bike and your touring activities. I'll be looking forward to your posts in the weight loss club thread also.

Instanbu, I would have to disagree with you on your comment about lugs vs lugless. Nothing personal Instanbu just my opinion. But people that I have known that have done heavy touring have in fact reported just the opposite of what you said! In fact I have known a few people that bought lugless bikes for racing-not touring (steel) that reported shimmy problems at high speeds. You need to read the Sakkit article about lugs at: http://www.coinet.com/~beckman/bikeframes.html vs lugless and while your at it read Rivendell at: http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_lugs.html And let's not forget Sach see: http://www.richardsachs.com/articles/rsachslug1.html and: http://www.richardsachs.com/articles/rsachslugs.html

The main reason a lot of bike companies have gone to welding vs lug construction is because it's cheaper, faster, and most are done by robots in some far Asian country. In the 80's a lot of bike manufactures went out of business as well as bike stores because the profit margins were severly cut so that the bike store could not survive, not everyone was willing to spend 1500+ for a hand built lugged steel frame, and if people weren't buying then the bike manufactures were gone too. So several factors helped, AL used for frame material and lugless construction, now profit margins have soared.