Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-22-09, 08:05 PM   #1
roadbuzz
Just ride.
Thread Starter
 
roadbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: C-ville, Va
Bikes:
Posts: 3,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
*New* traffic light sensors

Lots of posts here about the old induction coil sensors. I recently spoke with a local traffic engineer about one of the newer traffic light sensors that are being used in newer signals. Thought it might be of general interest.

The lights use a "mass sensor"... a camera-looking thing mounted a couple of feet above the boom. (They can't be mounted on lights suspended by wires... no way to fix the detection zone.) There's typically also an emergency vehicle detector, the thing that looks like it has a floodlight, mounted on the boom. The sensors have a fairly confined detection area, typically set up for an area from 5' in front of the stop bar to 30' behind it, and is pretty narrowly focused on the lane, so activity outside that (e.g. pedestrians) don't trigger it. There is also a sensitivity adjustment, and there is a reset mechanism, so cars that roll up to the light and then turn right on red don't trigger a green. All these settings can be adjusted. The engineers advice to me was that if there were no cars, I should be sure I'm in the detection zone. I find they work the best if I roll up to the bar, and stop near the center of the lane. And if the light doesn't respond, notify the appropriate local DOT that it needs to be adjusted.

Last edited by roadbuzz; 02-23-09 at 11:57 AM.
roadbuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-09, 09:08 PM   #2
DallasSoxFan
Scan Me
 
DallasSoxFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Bikes: 2009 Trek 2.3, 2010 Specialized Secteur Sport
Posts: 771
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadbuzz View Post
....
....

All these settings can be adjusted. The engineers advice to me was that if there were no cars, I should be sure I'm in the detection zone. I find they work the best if I roll up to the bar, and stop near the center of the lane. And if the light doesn't respond, the local DOT will ignore you
Edited for you...

Seriously, I've seen these going in around here. Of course, the intersections they are putting them in at are intersections so busy I'd never ride on them. The inability for bikes to trip sensors is why I have stopped caring about whether they get tripped or not.
DallasSoxFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-09, 09:25 PM   #3
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
some of our sensors trigger nicely with bikes, most don't. I found one that triggers if I ride up between the two sensors. Not sure how that works, I actually figured that out one time when I didn't want to trigger the light since I was running it
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 02:34 AM   #4
ChipSeal
www.chipsea.blogspot.com
 
ChipSeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South of Dallas, Texas
Bikes: Giant OCR C0 road
Posts: 1,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I hate it when a cyclist trips a signal light all by himself. It is rude and arrogant of him to control the entire intersection. He blocks all of the cross traffic! Who does he think he is? It annoys motorists and makes them more likely to bully the next cyclist they see- which could be me after all!

We have enough trouble with motorists without some cyclist acting like he owns the whole intersection and getting in their face, unnecessarily asserting his rights. Share the road.
ChipSeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 05:59 AM   #5
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipSeal View Post
I hate it when a cyclist trips a signal light all by himself. It is rude and arrogant of him to control the entire intersection. He blocks all of the cross traffic! Who does he think he is? It annoys motorists and makes them more likely to bully the next cyclist they see- which could be me after all!

We have enough trouble with motorists without some cyclist acting like he owns the whole intersection and getting in their face, unnecessarily asserting his rights. Share the road.
What!?! So a pedestrian that pushes the walk button is rude and arrogant? A single motorist crossing a busy street is rude and arrogant?
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 06:21 AM   #6
The Human Car
-=Barry=-
 
The Human Car's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
Bikes:
Posts: 4,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipSeal View Post
I hate it when a cyclist trips a signal light all by himself. It is rude and arrogant of him to control the entire intersection. He blocks all of the cross traffic! Who does he think he is? It annoys motorists and makes them more likely to bully the next cyclist they see- which could be me after all!

We have enough trouble with motorists without some cyclist acting like he owns the whole intersection and getting in their face, unnecessarily asserting his rights. Share the road.
__________________
Cycling Advocate
http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
. . . o
. . /L
=()>()
The Human Car is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:02 AM   #7
ItsJustMe
Seņior Member
 
ItsJustMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Posts: 12,977
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
What!?! So a pedestrian that pushes the walk button is rude and arrogant? A single motorist crossing a busy street is rude and arrogant?
genec, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

OP:
We have some of these new "improved" lights here in our small town (there are only 4 lights in the entire town). They stink. Half the time they don't even see my CAR. Sure, they're probably adjusted wrong, but try getting anyone to fix it. They can't even get it right for a car, I don't have much hope for bikes.

I never had any trouble getting an induction loop to trigger for my bike, except when the loop had been paved over, then I had to figure out where it was.
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:10 AM   #8
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
Uh, no problem, but chipseal usually doesn't troll. Perhaps this was his exception, or he was trying to be funny. Only he knows for sure.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:22 AM   #9
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
I had a conversation with a couple of road engineers/installers near my house the other day. They were modifying the light controller and lights at this one intersection. The intersection has not had a left turn arrow in the past, and it appears that change is being added, along with a new controller box. (this effort BTW has taken nearly a year... )

I talked to these guys as neither one of the local intersection lights will sense my bike on a consistent basis. (I have submitted requests for adjustment many times). Turns out that the old systems are from the mid '60s and are relay driven and really offer little adjustment, and as one engineer stated, "sometimes the wires are installed too deep or are not installed properly..."

The newest system they are installing is one of those vision systems. They said it would "sense a human standing in the street" (at the right spot) and trigger the light. Of course I then mentioned... "where is the right spot?"

With the sensor loops sometimes you can see the loop and put a wheel right on it. (they mentioned the "hot spot" is right on the wire loop anywhere) But sometimes these loops are paved over and are invisible... so where is the hot spot?

That is one of the key issues... small targets, bicycles, may not be in the right location, and if there is no way to see the "right location" then it doesn't much matter how good the new systems are.

When they finally get finished installing this system I am looking forward to testing it.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:29 AM   #10
I_bRAD
Call me The Breeze
 
I_bRAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Corbyville Ontario
Bikes: 2004 Litespeed Siena, 1996 Litespeed Obed, 1992 Miele (unknown model), 1982 Meile Uno LS.
Posts: 3,699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Useful to know, but I usually just "look both ways before crossing the street" and then go when it is safe to do so. If there is enough traffic that you actually need the lights to change to get across, then chances are there are cars waiting with you which will trip the sensor for you anyhow.
I_bRAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:45 AM   #11
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_bRAD View Post
Useful to know, but I usually just "look both ways before crossing the street" and then go when it is safe to do so. If there is enough traffic that you actually need the lights to change to get across, then chances are there are cars waiting with you which will trip the sensor for you anyhow.
Not always. I live in a small neighborhood bounded on two sides by arterial roads; during the busiest times of day, those roads hold a steady stream of traffic... there is no way to cross or merge without somehow slowing the flow.

The other two sides of my neighborhood are steep high walls down into canyons...

Since this is a small neighborhood "island," there isn't that much other traffic to ensure that someone may come along and trigger the light with me. Often I am on my own. Many times I am forced to simply walk the bike to the corner and act like a pedestrian and push the walk button as my only recourse.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:45 AM   #12
Pscyclepath
LCI #1853
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Scott. Arkansas
Bikes: Trek Madone 5.2, Fisher Caliber 29er, Orbea Onix
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
None of the induction loop detectors here in central Arkansas will work for bikes, but I've had good luck with the camera detectors. What these things are keyed on is contrast with the pavement in the backgorund, so light-colored clothing helps; headlights help even more; especially at night. If you're in ninja mode or close to it, other travelers have a hard time seeing you, and the camera will, too.
Pscyclepath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:47 AM   #13
I_bRAD
Call me The Breeze
 
I_bRAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Corbyville Ontario
Bikes: 2004 Litespeed Siena, 1996 Litespeed Obed, 1992 Miele (unknown model), 1982 Meile Uno LS.
Posts: 3,699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Not always. I live in a small neighborhood bounded on two sides by arterial roads; during the busiest times of day, those roads hold a steady stream of traffic... there is no way to cross or merge without somehow slowing the flow.
Well that sounds like it would be annoying!
I_bRAD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 08:51 AM   #14
Caspar_s
Senior Member
 
Caspar_s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Burlington, ON
Bikes: Giant Tcx1
Posts: 530
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Normally, yes. On my ride home, I have a busy cross street - but the road I am on has almost no traffic (which is why I use it) Sometimes it'll trigger. Sometimes a car will come up and right turn which it senses and starts changing but when they leave it goes back to red. I have resorted to pushing the ped crossing button if the traffic is too steady, otherwise I wait for a break and cross or a car will show up.
Caspar_s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 09:06 AM   #15
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pscyclepath View Post
None of the induction loop detectors here in central Arkansas will work for bikes, but I've had good luck with the camera detectors. What these things are keyed on is contrast with the pavement in the backgorund, so light-colored clothing helps; headlights help even more; especially at night. If you're in ninja mode or close to it, other travelers have a hard time seeing you, and the camera will, too.
Cool, thanks for that.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 09:13 AM   #16
X-LinkedRider
Flying Under the Radar
 
X-LinkedRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northeast PA
Bikes: 10' SuperiorLite SL Club | 06' Giant FCR3 | 2010 GT Avalanche 3.0 Disc
Posts: 4,117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Our lights in town are all run on timers so the motorists can have a clean drive for multiple streets without having to stop at every street for a red light. In succession the light at the center point which would be the river starts green and everyone after that turns green with 2 seconds delay from the previous. This leaves just enough time to make the whole run.

It is arrogant to think that a cyclist is arrogant for taking up the street when we are certainly allowed to. I pay my taxes the same as the motorists and probably even more than most. If the DOT can not design a system that works for ALL of the people using it than it is useless and I could care less whether or not people get upset. Normally it makes no difference, because I'll just run the red light if there is nobody around. Otherwise I just wait til the light turns green.
X-LinkedRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 09:14 AM   #17
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_bRAD View Post
Well that sounds like it would be annoying!
It is.

On the flip side, during the work week the flow is only steady during rush hour drive times... other times you can easily walk across the street without even using the walk signal.

The north south arterial road is even crazier... during peak hours it sometimes comes to a complete halt. (it is then quite easy to navigate) It is marked at 45MPH, but at near peak, motorists are usually moving at about 50MPH. At other times, such as late Saturday or early Sunday, it is a ghost town. Very "schizophrenic." This is the only connecting road north and south due to the geography of the area... other than the two freeways that parallel the road. Motorists try to use this arterial as a short cut to avoid the freeway. Cyclists have no other choice.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 09:40 AM   #18
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Bikes: Some silver ones, a black one, a red one, an orange one and a couple of titanium ones
Posts: 17,833
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadbuzz View Post
Lots of posts here about the old induction coil sensors. I recently spoke with a local traffic engineer about one of the newer traffic light sensors that are being used in newer signals. Thought it might be of general interest.

The lights use a "mass sensor"... a camera-looking thing mounted a couple of feet above the boom. (They can't be mounted on lights suspended by wires... no way to fix the detection zone.) There's typically also an emergency vehicle detector, the thing that looks like it has a floodlight, mounted on the boom. The sensors have a fairly confined detection area, typically set up for an area from 5' in front of the stop bar to 20' behind it, and is pretty narrowly focused on the lane, so activity outside that (e.g. pedestrians) don't trigger it. There is also a sensitivity adjustment, and there is a reset mechanism, so cars that roll up to the light and then turn right on red don't trigger a green. All these settings can be adjusted. The engineers advice to me was that if there were no cars, I should be sure I'm in the detection zone. I find they work the best if I roll up to the bar, and stop near the center of the lane. And if the light doesn't respond, notify the appropriate local DOT that it needs to be adjusted.
I've found that I need to present a larger target to only one of these stoplights that I have on my route. I do an S-curve just before I get to the crosswalk so that I am sideways to the sensor. In the winter, I've found that shining my helmet light on the sensor does a great job of triggering it.
__________________
Stuart Black
New! Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
New! Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Days of Wineless Roads. Bed and Breakfasting along the KATY
Twisting Down the Alley. Misadventures in tornado alley.
An Good Ol' Fashion Appalachian Butt Whoopin'.
cyccommute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 10:20 AM   #19
HardyWeinberg
GATC
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: south Puget Sound
Bikes:
Posts: 7,479
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_bRAD View Post
Useful to know, but I usually just "look both ways before crossing the street" and then go when it is safe to do so. If there is enough traffic that you actually need the lights to change to get across, then chances are there are cars waiting with you which will trip the sensor for you anyhow.
I have this one twice-daily intersection where I am, naturally, on a low-volume road, and the sensor is deviously spaced so that a car hugging the stop line and nudging into the x-walk will be in front of it, and a 2nd car that is not riding the 1st car's butt will be behind it. Anyway, I always stop right on the sensor. Often as not I am 1st in line waiting there anyway.

This is in the straight/left lane. There is a right turn lane, and there, cars pull over to the bike lane before turning right so also miss the sensor designated for them (as well as blocking bikes).
HardyWeinberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 11:56 AM   #20
roadbuzz
Just ride.
Thread Starter
 
roadbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: C-ville, Va
Bikes:
Posts: 3,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
The newest system they are installing is one of those vision systems. They said it would "sense a human standing in the street" (at the right spot) and trigger the light. Of course I then mentioned... "where is the right spot?"
It helps me to think of the "sensed" area by imagining the sensor is a flashlight and the monitored area is in the cone of light ending in the illuminated ellipse on the pavement. (A picture would be worth a thousand words, but I'm too lazy.) It's going to be narrower at the front, so you need to be near the middle of the lane.
roadbuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 12:43 PM   #21
tmoritz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Bikes:
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I work at a government facility with a security fence. There is an inductive loop embedded in the asphalt to automatically sense and open the gate for exiting vehicles. We recently hired several new employees one of whom competes in triathlons. He brought in his carbon fiber bike the other day for an after work training ride. As I was leaving the office I saw this gentlemen dragging his bike all over the loop trying to trigger the gate. I rode up on my 25 year old Miyata 610 and had no problem triggering the sensor. Sometimes we get ahead of ourselves with technology. (I showed the new employee where he could use his building key to open the gate.)
tmoritz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 01:44 PM   #22
cachehiker
Soma Lover
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Logan, UT
Bikes: one bike for every day of the week
Posts: 765
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I find my aluminum road racer and my mountain bikes don't trip the inductive sensors. Both of my steel commuter bikes do a great job but there's the one intersection where I do need to drift over into the center of the lane to trip it.

On casual evening rides I often take the faster fair weather commuter. It's kinda hilarious watching all the lycra clad racer wannabe carbon snobs trying to track stand for minutes at a time until the precise moment when I or one of my other "steel is real" friends catch up.
cachehiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 01:57 PM   #23
ChipSeal
www.chipsea.blogspot.com
 
ChipSeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South of Dallas, Texas
Bikes: Giant OCR C0 road
Posts: 1,026
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Uh, no problem, but ChipSeal usually doesn't troll. Perhaps this was his exception, or he was trying to be funny. Only he knows for sure.
Thank you Gene!

I am actually making an off-topic point. To wit:

Motorists and those with cyclist's inferiority complex are constantly accusing vehicular cyclists of making things worse for bicycling because we impede traffic. I simply took those objections and applied them to a cyclist at a signalized intersection.

The fact is that a signal light, by design, "impedes traffic" every time it causes someone to stop. Causing traffic to come to a complete halt must be far more rude than the legal use of a public travel lane by a vehicular cyclist who only causes mere seconds of delay.

As silly and outrageous my post sounded to you, Gene, is how outrageous the similar objections to VC sound to me.

My comment was therefore satire... No, it was Art! (You can't criticize an artist! )
ChipSeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 02:07 PM   #24
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 14,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipSeal View Post
My comment was therefore satire... No, it was Art! (You can't criticize an artist! )[/color][/size][/font]
not too much trolling in commuting. We should try to keep it that way. A&S is a cesspool full of trolling, and that really detracts from the forum. Never heard that about criticizing artists, I'll make a note of it.


I have heard that going down the center of the inductive loops is the best way to trigger them, but it doesn't usually work for me. I tried going down the loop today on the loop I would most like to trigger, but it didn't work either. No carbon here, I commute on a touring bike.
unterhausen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-09, 02:31 PM   #25
ItsJustMe
Seņior Member
 
ItsJustMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Posts: 12,977
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
not too much trolling in commuting. We should try to keep it that way. A&S is a cesspool full of trolling, and that really detracts from the forum. Never heard that about criticizing artists, I'll make a note of it.


I have heard that going down the center of the inductive loops is the best way to trigger them, but it doesn't usually work for me. I tried going down the loop today on the loop I would most like to trigger, but it didn't work either. No carbon here, I commute on a touring bike.
A) I don't think he was really trolling - trolls are just trying to make people angry - he was trying to make people think.

B) Center of inductive loop is NOT the best - you want to be on the wire. If it's a figure 8, then you drive on the center wire, which is sort of in the middle.

See:
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl...nals/green.htm

also:
http://www.humantransport.org/bicycl.../detection.htm
__________________
Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.
ItsJustMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:42 PM.