spare_wheel

Of course motorists want us to earn their respect by following *their* rules. The in-group always wants the out-group to follow their rules, even if their rule make absolutely no sense. The Idaho stop law and the high rate of signal "scofflawery" in the Netherlands illustrate that "respect" and pointless obedience to irrelevant traffic statutes are not well correlated.

I'm trying hard to remember the last time one Portland's many hoodie-wearing signal blowing bike ninjas was run down by an angry motorist. Oh wait a second...now I remember...NEVER! I think that the basic rule of thumb is that the more common cyclists become, the more TOLERANT motorists are of misbehavior.

spare_wheel

Google "Idaho Stop" law and get back to me.

PlanoFuji

1) They are everyone’s rules (actually laws) that is the nature of living in a civilized governed society
2) Individuals do not get to decide which rules the society makes that apply to them with no consequences
3) You failed to provide any actual citations for the rates you mention
4) Your statement fails to provide how criminal behaviour relates to respect
5) You fail to provide any support for how respect and obedience are correlated (and failed to provide actual data for which correlation could be determined

Multiple unique criteria; Portland only, hoodie wearing, signal blowing, ninja, angry motorist, run down... With that many unique criteria I am not surprised there has never been a complete match.

Interesting proposition. Using the same basic thought. As murders become more common, the more tolerant we would become of such behaviour. As motorists running down cyclists become more common, the more tolerant we would be of that as well.

Sound reasonable or likely? No didn't think so...

PlanoFuji

not really and answer to his question

JoeyBike

Ever heard of the Boston Tea Party? That little refusal to line up with the herd resulted in consequences too...the birth of the USofA. The issue was "taxation without representation" and same applies to cycling. I am being taxed unfairly (wasting time and effort stopping and starting, putting myself at more risk from idiot motorists when the light turns green, more at risk for mugging, etc.,) as I am not being properly represented in my cycling community. Someone runs over a cyclist who waited for a green light and says "I didn't see him/her" and get to go on with their business.

My civil disobedience hurts no one except in some fantasy world in the heads of a few kowtowing lemmings around here.

PlanoFuji

You believe that is was a refusal to go along with the 'herd'. Really, what group of people weren't they going along with? Who was throwing the party? I'm guessing you can't really accurately answer those, well without resorting to Wikipedia...

I am guessing you don't pay actual taxes much, or you might realize the problem with your analogy

Cliques (or factions as they were originally described) do not get to define the laws that affect all. They can only voice their concerns. Since you are a member of the cycling faction and you feel it isn't being represented then by all means do something about it.

Like so many you seem to believe that only criminal law is applied. Our criminal system was set-up by folks who as the saying goes "would rather see a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent be convicted." As a result criminal convictions are hard to obtain for any violation of the law. Given how vocal you are about breaking said laws, you should be grateful the system is set up that way.

On the other hand, the same folks who set up the criminal system also setup another legal resource for people to obtain 'justice'. Its called civil court. The proof required is much lower, and its structure means you (or the next of kin) are almost guaranteed they will receive recompense (or justice)...

Those that are unhappy with the outcome of those two options aren't really after justice, but rather revenge.

I don't disagree, you are correct. Most of the time your reckless behaviour will hurt no one. Your most likely consequence will be legal/financial if caught by a cop. But there is always the other possible consequence, collision. Somehow I doubt you will feel it was your fault if such occurs...

spare_wheel

As a citizen in a nominally democratic nation I have every right to challenge laws that I think are irrelevant or unjust (e.g. via disobediance or in the courts). Moreover, bike traffic violations, like smoking dope, are officially designated as crimes of low priority by the Portland police.
Minor traffic statute violations (punishable by warning or, rarely, a fine) are not felonies.

Clearly you have never visited PDX.


I'm trying to remember the last time I heard a pedestrian ranting that jaywalkers make us all look bad.
PS: Equating "signal blowing" with murder is pure flame-bait.

Transmogrifier

https://www.coloradoan.com/article/20...-bicycle-crash

"A cyclist crashed through the windshield of a black Volkswagen Jetta during a collision Tuesday morning, closing Horsetooth Road at Lemay Avenue in Fort Collins for several hours.Nathaniel Udel, 31, of Fort Collins was rushed with serious but non-life-threatening injuries to Medical Center of the Rockies in Loveland, according to Fort Collins Police Services.

The crash was at about 5:30 a.m. Udel was cycling across Horsetooth, but the westbound Jetta had the green light as it drove through the intersection. Jetta driver Raegan Beaver, 34, and a young child who was a passenger, didn’t appear to have any injuries, according to police.

The cyclist wasn’t wearing a helmet, and nobody’s been ticketed as the investigation continues, he said."

PlanoFuji

Yes you are correct you have that right. You also have the responsibility to accept the consequences of your 'civil disobedience'. And there in is the issue. Like Joey, I suspect that in the event of you ever being hit by someone while running a red light you will be claiming it wasn't your fault and likely calling a lawyer... Of course we will never know until the collision happens...

Actually I have, though it has been over a decade. Last time I was there, cycling wasn't really noticeable.

I haven't said anything about anyone making 'us' (or even me) look bad. So perhaps you are talking to someone else with that.

As to your P.S. I guess you don't like your logic when applied to other situations... Doesn't seem so clear cut then, does it?

JoeyBike

Anytime I pedal down the road the risk of collision is there. I still hold firm that in my city, most of the time, running a red can be considered a safety measure - so much so that I often STOP AT A GREEN LIGHT, let all of the maniacs in cars rush down the narrow street ahead, WAIT FOR THE RED...then proceed through the red on an empty street left all to me. Zero chance of collision is my reward for running that red light.

PlanoFuji

And as I said, we will wait for either of the consequences of your 'civil disobedience' and see if you still claim to accept the consequences of your actions, assuming you are still able to communicate.

As I said, I don't care what you do, I have just heard one too many folks with similar attitudes whine about the unfairness of the consequences when their actions catch up to them.

JoeyBike

Like getting a ticket? Do you know someone PERSONALLY who got hit running a red light? Tell us about it. Your story would then be consistent with the headline and purpose of this thread, at last.

PlanoFuji

Personally, no. But then with about 700 deaths per year from a variety of causes, deaths by any particular cause or even cycling deaths in general are an extremely rare event. However, I did post earlier one such news reference in this thread.

And another consequence, at least of you vocal 'civil disobedience' is that if you ever do get involved in a civil action against a motorist (even if they are guilty as sin) their lawyer will be able to use your statement as evidence YOU were the one breaking the law...

Accepting consequences also means accepting those that were not foreseen.

dynaryder

Wat? Come on now,do I really need to explain 3ft passing laws to you?

There are many things cyclists can be accused of being hypocrites about,but that is def not one of them.

the sci guy 

i think this question needs to be answered by more people - especially the "runners"

BrooklyntoNYC

Yes when I lived in Brooklyn, I had a Bike rider run into me while riding my bike. He ran the red light. I screamed out 'What are you doing!" this happened at Hancock and Bedford ave.

Burton

Do I really need to explain that riding side by side is illegal in this provence - on a bike path or in the street? Your assumption is false because I already did it.

Burton

Yeah - that started a war. Maybe that's your intention too. Even bringing up that comparison is an insult to everything the USA constitution is based on.

Obviously you consider yourself above most of the population.
The USA is still a democracy and you have the right to vote. Laws are created by people appointed by that decomacratic process. They apply to you regardless of wheither you agree with them or not.

One of my neighbors is just as adamant about his right to drink and drive as you are about your right to disrespect traffic regulations. I'd like to see you two get together some day.

JoeyBike

No. The population where I live are all on the same page and level. There are two ways to deal with a dumb law. Use tons of energy to TRY to change it appealing to lawmakers who have no point of reference (except in Idaho) OR everyone just stops obeying that law. In my town, we chose the latter. No one who has lived here for any length of time stops for red lights when the coast is clear and no one, to my knowledge, has ever been cited. We threw the tea overboard. Our country was founded by rebels. Just keeping with tradition.

Problem solved for me. No one stops and no one cares. Hopefully the law withers and rots on the vine but no matter.

chefisaac

I think the act of running red lights is one that is personal to the rider. When I ride in Philly or NYC, I slow down a bit and run it if I want which is most of the time. In the early morning where I live, I run them but on the way home, nope. Too many people on the road at that time.

I think the key is for the RIDER to know when it is appropriate or not and they also need to have a keen understanding when to fold the cards and stop at the light. This is always a quick decision and one that is learned only through time.

JoeyBike

I think it is safe to say that very few red light runners on this planet barrel through a red like a chase scene in the French Connection. If so, they won't last long.

I-Like-To-Bike

I was cycling in Philadelphia two weeks ago and was pleased to see that bicycle riders still feel free (from LEO interference) to ride though all intersections when it is safe to do so, regardless of traffic sign or signal indications. Just the same as when I enjoyed cycling through out Philadelphia as a pre teen and pre 16Y/O in the 50's and 60's, and as an adult in the 70's. Only difference was the increased number of bicyclists.

Joey and New Orleans cyclists are hardly unique in understanding the joys and benefits of cycling in the city, that the Strict Compliance with Traffic Code McGruffs will never comprehend.

BenBanned

Why does everyone still have their spandex in a bunch over this?

.....So everyone with a brain can agree with this right?
Probably not.

chefisaac

Let me know next time you are around. Would enjoy taking you out to lunch.

I-Like-To-Bike

Thanks. I will try and take you and another BF poster from Philly up on the offer. I get back at least once a year to visit family. I spent most of my time with my sister and her sons and grandkids. It was her 75th Birthday and we did ride bicycles down the Boardwalk in Atlantic City just like the good old days. Only had one day to ride within Philadelphia but managed to ride through Mt. Airy, Chestnut Hill, Germantown, Valley Green, the East River Drive (AKA Kelly Drive) and into Center City to New Liberties and the new Philadelphia Casino, Sugar Hill. Riding on Fairmount Avenue and Brown Street east of Broad would have been terrible if I was in a car stopping at every single 4 way stop. But I was on a bike and had a good time. Even got to Kaplan's Bakery at 3rd and Poplar; it just didn't seem the same as when it was sitting right next to an operational Ortlieb's brewery.