BianchiDave

It’s usually used as leverage only “if you don‘t start telling me the truth I‘ll get you for obstruction.” Most DA’s wont even touch this one. Now if the officer wants to “throw the book” at the subject Obstruction is 99% of the time thrown in the mix of citations but usually the first to be dropped.

CB HI

^^^
Exactly in line with my understanding and experience.

CB HI

I have a good story (sort of about lying to cops) that BianchiDave and Chipcom should especially enjoy. But maybe you guys already heard the story. For the rest of you, we will let you in on the secret a little later.

A marine MP had gate duty one night. A nice car with a blue decal pulls up, and the gentleman driving gives the MP his ID card. The MP looks at the ID card and ask the gentleman why he has a blue decal on his car. The gentleman answers “because I am an officer”. The MP immediately orders the gentleman out of the car and face down, spread eagle. The MP then calls the Sargent of the Guard on the phone and tells him that he needs backup at the gate for this guy who is impersonating an officer.

The Sargent of the Guard ask the MP how he knows the guy is impersonating an officer. The MP tells him, his car has a blue sticker on it and he lied that he was an officer, but he is a radioman because his ID card has “RADM” written right on it.

Bain19

I am shocked at the results. I think a better question is what do you guys have to hide by not carrying ID. Are you trying to stay off the "grid"

bmclaughlin807

Ooo. Ouch.

(8 yr Navy vet here...)

Commando303

I, too, am shocked by the current poll-results: I'd have expected rather more than 75% of responders to have been against such requirement. Not carrying I.D. isn't a matter of "hiding" anything; it's about a person's basic right to exist in the world without being mandated to carry around some sort of "documentation." I can understand people's feeling having something with one's name, address, and telephone number in one's pocket can be beneficial in the event of any accident, but I'm repulsed by the notion it's acceptable to demand that free citizens not leave home without some state-issued identification — again, as if one were not permitted simply to exist unless one's "identity" is validated by a piece of plastic.

whatsmyname

I'm assuming you don't live in a dwelling with glass walls and no curtains - are you hiding something? Why don't you post under your real name - are you hiding something? Why do you put your mail in an envelope instead of a clear plastic sheath - are you hiding something? And so on.

I don't have anything to hide: I just believe (and, luckily, the US Constitution seems to agree with me for when I am in the US) that I have a right to go where I like without explaining myself to the government unless there's some very special reason; there are better things that both the government agent and I can be doing with our time.

Equally, I don't feel like the government should incur a vast amount of cost and gather a large amount of information it doesn't need for the sake of achieving very little.

mikeybikes

The bodies in the trunk of my bicycle.

mconlonx

All kinds of things made the roadblock illegal. State, Native American Nation, and Federal agents acting in concert without proper paperwork. Many different agencies acting outside jurisdiction. I believe it was a sobriety checkpoint set up by reservation police, but included State Police, Border Patrol, DEA, and others, and wasn't actually on reservation land. Read the account, "TOPD Roadblock Lawsuit." Pretty scary how slipshod accounting is in the official end of things, how lax they are with regulations that supposedly control these kinds of things, and complete disregard for the law when it comes to roadblocks.

Bain19

LoL that is totally staying off the grid, cant you see that ? Just because you dont carry ID with you dosent mean a police officer wont stop you to ask questions. Its there job to investigate suspicions and its even MORE suspicious to not have an ID.

Are you guys hoping its some sort of get out of trouble card ?....erh not card?

In the end that card identifies you when you are unable too, these other non standardized methods that some have suggested, like having my name written on a peice of clothing... gimmie a break.

mconlonx

What other rights are you willing to fork over to the gov't? Right to assemble? Free speech? (Both fairly eroded by people who refuse to see or care about authoritarian encroachment on both...) You think a place where cops pull you for no reason, demanding "Papers, please!" is a great place to be?

Bain19

mconlonx

^^^part of the problem...

Bain19

Sorry gonna have to bare with me im Canadian and I dont have this concern ... but if they ever take my healthcare god help them !

mikeybikes

What makes it more suspicious not to carry an ID? I'll tell the officer what I'm legally obligated to, my name, date of birth. I doubt the lack of an ID can be used legally as an argument for suspicion.

Its not trying to stay off the grid or anything like that. I have car registration, bank accounts, I pay taxes, etc. I'm totally on the grid.

Its about preventing a police state. Its about keeping police officers from having too much power. A police officer has no need for state issued documents to investigate suspicion, to arrest people who are breaking laws. It won't help the officer in any way to see my ID except in a fishing expedition. If the officer saw me break a law, then there's no need for an ID. The officer can simply arrest me if appropriate.

If I were incapacitated, the medical staff can pull out my cell phone and dial "mom". That's good enough for me.

Bain19

Wow!, like wow! Stupid people really do sort themselves out. If you cellphone fails make sure to have all your vitals on your facebook page too. So they can add themselves as friends and figure out your medical history.

MMACH 5

Alright then. Let's put together a hypothetical situation (I'll even put a cycling bend on it). Yes, it is an extreme example:

Suppose you decided to advocate for cyclists rights to riding on roadways in Canada. You go to city council meetings and make a stink every chance you get. The powers that be might feel threatened with your actions, since more rights for cyclists can be an inconvenience for motorists.

They know who you are and where you live. They simply place a cop along your route to work. Every morning, he stops you, asks for your ID and detains you for about ten minutes. No big deal right? Except that they could place a cop every half-mile of your route. You'd be late for work every morning and have no recourse.

To think this couldn't happen is quite naive. While not cycling-related, this sort of thing DID happen on a regular basis in the southern United States during the '60s. Black people who spoke up for their rights were regularly harassed while going about their every day lives. They didn't have anything to hide but they certainly would rather not have to deal with this kind of thing on a regular basis.

chephy

Very well said.

It's not a matter of having something to hide - and it's very naive to think that if the government really needed to know your identity, you'd be able to hide it by leaving your DL at home.

BTW, I am also quite sympathetic to the cause of people trying to hide something. It's a basic right to privacy. I like to hide a lot of stuff about myself - not because it's bad, just because I want it to stay private. So the "oh, you must have something to hide" argument (which does not work in this case anyway) really does not bear much weight with me. Yes, I have something to hide. We all do.

chephy

A theoretical right to take someone to court and the practicality of such a recourse are two different things.

Argument? What argument? I thought I was just kind of thinking things through out loud, so to speak. I admitted that my guess about Cuba's ID was wrong. And if you notice, I've been posing questions rather than trying to give answers and present arguments.

mikeybikes

Yes, my cell phone could fail, but I don't worry about it. Your ID could magically fly out of your wallet.

You also assume that I have a medical history. Nothing really important in my medical history. A broken collar bone, some eye surgery from when I was 4. No allergies.

I do also carry a copy of my medical insurance card with me. At least that way they know I can pay to be treated.

mikeybikes

Here's a question I have.

Suppose a police officer stops me for whatever reason. He asks for my name and DOB. I provide it. He asks if I have identification. I say yes (I can't lie). He then asks for the identification and I decline to give it to him. Am I allowed that right?

I suppose it would be better to just remain silent in the first place after providing my name and DOB.

ddez

Im obviously Canadian and i am concerned.Wouldnt want folks to think we all think the same up here.

MNBikeguy

Do we have any police officers on BF? I'd like to hear from them.
This thread has taken an odd turn. A police officer has more rights than many of you seem to believe.
It's all well to bandy about your 4th amendment rights and such, but an officer is trained to handle and control variables that could affect his/her safety.
Getting in their face (as some of you suggest), and providing them limited information on a need-to-know basis is very, very bad advice.

AlmostTrick

Sure you can do that. Just don't assume it to be the smoothest way to be done with the situation.

As for the original question, I want to change my vote. I originally said yes, but after reading a few posts I can see I never really thought this through. No need to continue posting against ID requirements on my account.

MNBikeguy

The discussion has gone two directions:
- Should ID be "required"? No. Unless operating a motor vehicle which is a controlled right. This is not a police state.
- Based on the above, should you not cooperate with a police officer? That is not a very good idea.