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-   -   What is the Poor Man's Rivendell? (http://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/631114-what-poor-mans-rivendell.html)

KonAaron Snake 10-09-13 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corwin1968 (Post 16144936)
I absolutely plan to let the builder design the bike based on my riding style. My input will be primarily in reaching a certain "look" while maintaining the ride characteristics he has designed. I've been doing tons of BikeCAD renderings but that's primarily for my own entertainment and to give him an idea of the aesthetics I prefer.

I'm not concerned about wheel durability as I'm riding a set of custom built 700c wheels right now with no problems. The 26" wheels are something that I've somehow never experienced in my 18 years of riding and it's something I want to pursue before making a final decision. I picked up a 1995 Trek 820 yesterday and will get that tuned up and the tires replaced with something smooth and make it my primary bike for the winter. So far, my impressions of the 26" wheels is very positive. I like the fact that they are designed for the fat tires I plan to run and that their smaller diameter makes them a bit easier to maneuver in tight quarters. Jan Heine has concluded that 26" wheels feel the best with wide tires and plus, the fat tire/26" wheel combo just looks right.

How cool looking is this?

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=344979

Sounds like you know what you're doing :thumb:

Picked a builder yet? I like my 26 inch wheeled commuter for what it is, but it definitely does feel sluggish in comparison to other bikes. It's also a converted MTB frame...so how much of that is the frame and how much are the wheels is anyone's guess. It truly does excel as a bullet proof commuter. My only experience with 650b is an older tandem...and those wheels really roll great over anything. I really want to build up a 650b bike.

corwin1968 10-09-13 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 16145600)
Sounds like you know what you're doing :thumb:

Picked a builder yet? I like my 26 inch wheeled commuter for what it is, but it definitely does feel sluggish in comparison to other bikes. It's also a converted MTB frame...so how much of that is the frame and how much are the wheels is anyone's guess. It truly does excel as a bullet proof commuter. My only experience with 650b is an older tandem...and those wheels really roll great over anything. I really want to build up a 650b bike.

Yes, I'm going with R&E Cycles in Seattle. They offer framesets in Reynolds 725 steel and one or two higher level steels. Dan assured me he can build an strong enough frameset out of Reynolds 725 with some select tandem tubes for stiffness or I can choose to upgrade to a higher level steel for a lighter frameset. I don't really know what that means based on numbers I'm used to riding 26-28 lb bikes so if it comes out in that ballpark I'll be happy.

My 1995 820 is an absolute pig of a tank. Catalog weight is 29 lbs and mine is the largest size so I would be surprised if it's pushing the mid-30 lb range. At this point I can't decide if the sluggishness is the irrirating knobby tires or simply weight. I suspect a large part of it is weight.

I trust that R&E can get me onto a 26" wheel bike that weighs what I'm used to. If it will end up substantially heavier, then I might change my mind.

rekmeyata 10-10-13 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP (Post 16142835)
I use IRD canti brakes. They're shiny and stop OK.

I bought my bike used with Honjo hammered aluminum fenders. Since I only use fenders for a couple months of the year, I traded the Honjos for a new set of SKS aluminum look plastics. They're much easier to install.

I have Dia Comp 960 Canti brakes in my 85 Le Tour Luxe and those were stiff acting in comparison to my other brakes I have on other bikes...but after dinking with it for awhile and never worked on Canti brakes before I gave up and took it an LBS last year and they felt new modern teflon brake cables would smooth out the action and they did, still not up to the smoothness of my single and dual pivot designs but far better than they were.

I wonder how long those aluminium looking polycarbonate fenders will last vs real aluminium? That's my only concern about that stuff, it "seems" like that after a while the fake aluminium skin would separate from the plastic...BUT I have no idea if that would actually happen, but I have seen that happen in other applications. But ease of installation is a consideration so I'm glad you brought that up because I would have thought that full plastic fenders would be the same to install as full aluminium, if not then I may stay with plastic because the possible issue of getting flats while touring I would not want a more difficult fender to remove just to fix a flat.

Hangtownmatt 10-10-13 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozonation (Post 16143261)
snip ...I think the closest you might come is the Sam Hillborne of Rivendell's current frames. I have one, and with the mustache bars, it rides fast. A very comfortable ride; a GREAT bike. It's probably their closest to a gravel grinder/cyclocross style bike. If I had any criticisms, it's that it doesn't handle quite as securely on rough road surfaces, or gravel trails that get too pitted; mind you, I'm no expert cyclist. I'm a fairly strong, reasonably athletic person who rides his bikes fairly assertively, so eventhough the bike is really, really stable, it almost seems I'm a bit too "high up" sometimes and that the bike should be a little heavier (for lack of a better term). snip

Ozone - I had some handling issues with my Sam Hillborne also. It's amazing how much a difference small changes can make, and in combination with other changes, huge differences. So much so, that I lost the forest through the trees. Below is a thread that might interest you:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/sam$20hillborne$20/rbw-owners-bunch/KfZMkJHpMJU/GpHU-6fWyDEJ

If the link doesn't work do a search for "Sam Hillborne Anomaly" at RBW Owners Bunch.

Matt

corwin1968 10-10-13 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hangtownmatt (Post 16149513)
Ozone - I had some handling issues with my Sam Hillborne also. It's amazing how much a difference small changes can make, and in combination with other changes, huge differences. So much so, that I lost the forest through the trees. Below is a thread that might interest you:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/sam$20hillborne$20/rbw-owners-bunch/KfZMkJHpMJU/GpHU-6fWyDEJ

If the link doesn't work do a search for "Sam Hillborne Anomaly" at RBW Owners Bunch.

Matt

I had not seen that particular thread but there was another one recently where anomolies in the Hillborne's handling were discussed. The Geometry of the Hillborne is enough to make me rule it out. Grant has changed a lot of my thinking about bicycles but I still prefer agility over stability. I've been riding bikes with 73 degree seat tubes since 1995 and the Trek 820 I just picked up a few days ago has a 72 degree seat tube. I just could not get a good pedaling position from my saddle so I shoved the saddle all the way back on the post and it now feels like my other bikes. Grant's thinking has changed since the Bridgestone days when he designed the XO-1 to be very agile and maneuverable. That's what I like in a bike. He's moved toward bikes being more stable and comfortable and while I don't have much experience with that type of bike, the idea doesn't really appeal to me. My 72/71 Trek 820 is fun to ride but my 73/73 Devil is even more fun. Interestingly enough, the guys who designed the Devil have said it's a 700c version of the XO-1.

By the way, I saw a Bridgestone MB-5 at a pawnshop today for $40.

rekmeyata 10-10-13 03:38 PM

I've never ridden a Sam but I do have two touring bikes and none of them have any of the issues mentioned on that blog site. True they're not racing bikes so they don't handle as fast but they are comfortable which is what you want in a touring bike.

If you want a quality touring bike in the Rivendell type of look and thought you should just shop for a used 70's to 80's Schwinn Voyager or a 85 Le Tour Luxe (not the 83 or 84), Trek 720 from the 80's, there are other brands too that were great touring bikes, and these can be found in fantastic condition for less than $500 if you look long enough, and they are easier and cheaper to work on if something breaks on a tour. I got my 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe in mint condition with just 250 miles on it for $100 3 years ago, I will admit I got lucky on the price it could have gone for three times that.

Standalone 10-11-13 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver (Post 15867900)
The frame angles and bottom bracket drop on a 700c equipped Hunq are 72/72 with an 80mm bottom bracket drop and touring length chainstays... this is how ones goes about designing a comfortable and stable bicycle but Rivendell does not build bicycles that are by any means radical in their geometry.

This is a little radical... you would be hard pressed to find a nicer riding bicycle and as far as carrying bricks... it is designed to carry loads of them around the world.

That is phenomenal. And here I thought my Alyeska was long and luxurious. How much do these run? What is availability like in the US?

edit:
Ahh... http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...-World-Tourist

mack_turtle 10-20-13 05:41 PM

I think my bike fits the spirit of this thread. I bought the frame and a few parts and built up the rest with stuff I had or random stuff that was laying around unused at the shop:

Pake C'mute (bought new)
GT carbon hybrid fork painted black (bike shop take-off)
Salsa Bell Lap bars- bought used
tall Salsa stem from bike co-op
Mavic road rim laced to a random Bonty hub and cheap hybrid wheel from a bike shop take-off. Bonty hardcase tires from a friend.
Tiagra-level compact cranks, 11-32 9 speed cassette, old XT rear der., new Sora front der., old Suntour friction barend shifters.
Thomson post from a friend (blacked out to avert thieves), take-off WTB saddle (comfy!)
Tektro canti's, Cane Creek levers, Fizik tape
awesome Crane headset bell!

here it is in stripped-down weekend ride mode. for my daily commute, it gets a Minewt 750 front light, SKS Chromoplastics, a rear rack, and one rear pannier.

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps69eaad01.jpg

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps547c230b.jpg

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...psa87793b9.jpg

I have been riding this for a few months as it replaced a SS commuter that was just getting too cumbersome and was not fun for long rides in Texas Hill Country. I nailed the frame size without seeing it in person and I like the WTB saddle because I can ride a pretty long while without cycling shorts. I have been considering getting a lighter, road-ier, racy-er steel bike but I am not sure I'll like it. mine is close to 30 pounds without the accessories and well over 30 after I put the extra gear on it. I have a feeling I would regret that, so the Pake is just going to get nicer parts from time to time, starting with that boat anchor of a rear wheel.

corwin1968 10-20-13 07:02 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by mack_turtle (Post 16176814)
I think my bike fits the spirit of this thread. I bought the frame and a few parts and built up the rest with stuff I had or random stuff that was laying around unused at the shop:

Pake C'mute (bought new)
GT carbon hybrid fork painted black (bike shop take-off)
Salsa Bell Lap bars- bought used
tall Salsa stem from bike co-op
Mavic road rim laced to a random Bonty hub and cheap hybrid wheel from a bike shop take-off. Bonty hardcase tires from a friend.
Tiagra-level compact cranks, 11-32 9 speed cassette, old XT rear der., new Sora front der., old Suntour friction barend shifters.
Thomson post from a friend (blacked out to avert thieves), take-off WTB saddle (comfy!)
Tektro canti's, Cane Creek levers, Fizik tape
awesome Crane headset bell!

here it is in stripped-down weekend ride mode. for my daily commute, it gets a Minewt 750 front light, SKS Chromoplastics, a rear rack, and one rear pannier.

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps69eaad01.jpg

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps547c230b.jpg

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/z...psa87793b9.jpg

I have been riding this for a few months as it replaced a SS commuter that was just getting too cumbersome and was not fun for long rides in Texas Hill Country. I nailed the frame size without seeing it in person and I like the WTB saddle because I can ride a pretty long while without cycling shorts. I have been considering getting a lighter, road-ier, racy-er steel bike but I am not sure I'll like it. mine is close to 30 pounds without the accessories and well over 30 after I put the extra gear on it. I have a feeling I would regret that, so the Pake is just going to get nicer parts from time to time, starting with that boat anchor of a rear wheel.

Nice bike! I haven't seen that color scheme but I like it better than the solid, light blue C'Mutes. One of the Rivendell guys has a C'Mute as a secondary bike. It's shown in the "staff bikes" section of Riv's website. Funny thing, they promote Surly as a good, less expensive alternate to their bikes but I think the only two Surlys in the staff bike section are the Big Dummy and the Pugsly that belong to the business.

I'm now anxious to explore the Surly LHT with 26" wheels as a viable choice for me. Step-by-step I'm overhauling my 1995 Trek 820 (learning the process as I get to each component) and I'm liking it more and more, to my surprise. Maybe there is something to neutral and stable bike handling. I'm going to explore that area.

Something like this might work very well:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=346954

Niloc 10-21-13 03:07 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I know exactly what the OP means. In a way all of my bicycles are poor man's Rivendells. I too admire their philosophy and their products. But they didn't invent that philosophy or the product category and you can find used, older bicycles out there that are similar to various of their models and perform in the same way. I'm of more-or-less average build so I don't really need a frame built custom for me, not that there's anything wrong with that.

For example, my "Sam Hillborne" is a 1996 Bianchi Reparto Corse cyclocross frame I scored off eBay years ago. It was hand made in Italy with high end double-butted Dedecciai Zero Uno tubing held together with some very nice lug work. Being a cyclocross frame, the geometry is somewhat relaxed, it uses cantilever brakes (I run a Paul Minimoto up front for less squealing and better response), and there's plenty of room for larger tires and fenders. It has braze-ons for fenders. I put moustache handlebars with bar end shifters and non-aero brake levers on it. It's old enough to where it uses a quill stem (I got a Nitto dirt drop from Rivendell). I'm sure Grant Peterson would approve of the whole set-up. It's not set-up to be a loaded tourer, which is fine with me, but I put some Rivendell sourced bags on it and can carry quite a lot on my commute. I've attached a pic for you, the fenders were off the bike for the summer.

You mentioned the Sam Hillborne which is why I detailed my Bianchi. I have an even older hand made lugged steel bike (mid to late 80s) with sportier road geometry running caliper brakes that fits the "Roadeo" profile pretty closely. It has room and braze-ons for fenders. Also bought used. Many good quality road bikes built in the 80s and earlier were steel and had room for fenders. The brakes were designed to accommodate a wider range of tires and fenders. Now they call these "long reach" calipers but back then they didn't because they were just standard.

I have yet another steel bike (do you see a trend here?), it is an early 80s Cyclopro Ram mountain bike built by Kawamura in Japan. It has 26 in wheels of course and a lot of nice, still totally functional Dia-Compe components (like friction shifting thumbies!). It has the original Sugino triple crankset, Rivendell still sells pretty much the exact crankset today. Mountain bikes back then had regular diamond frames with level top tubes, no suspension and often friction shifting. I have a heavy duty rack on this bike and it is very much akin to a Rivendell Atlantis or Bombadil. I'm running Albatross type handlebars on you guessed it a Nitto dirt drop quill stem. Here's a link to site showing a Ram in it's original state http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~rpinder/ram.html

Anyways you can find the practical, comfortable and high quality steel bicycle you want if you look around hard enough and do a little componentry swapping and updating. Kinda have fun doing it, resuscitate a neglected classics, and end up with a bike unique to you. All told my three bikes above with upgrades (saddles, stems, bars, racks, etc) cost less than one new fully kitted out Rivendell and hey I basically have three Rivendells now, each to serve a different purpose!

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=347107

1987cp 10-24-13 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mack_turtle (Post 16176814)
I think my bike fits the spirit of this thread. I bought the frame and a few parts and built up the rest with stuff I had or random stuff that was laying around unused at the shop:

Pake C'mute (bought new)
GT carbon hybrid fork painted black (bike shop take-off)
Salsa Bell Lap bars- bought used
tall Salsa stem from bike co-op
Mavic road rim laced to a random Bonty hub and cheap hybrid wheel from a bike shop take-off. Bonty hardcase tires from a friend.
Tiagra-level compact cranks, 11-32 9 speed cassette, old XT rear der., new Sora front der., old Suntour friction barend shifters.
Thomson post from a friend (blacked out to avert thieves), take-off WTB saddle (comfy!)
Tektro canti's, Cane Creek levers, Fizik tape
awesome Crane headset bell!


Carbon fiber ... man, I don't know ....

I guess the Suntour shifters make up for it, though. :)

tarwheel 10-24-13 09:42 AM

Love the Bianchi cyclocross. If I run across one of those in Celeste green in my size, I will snap it up.

corwin1968 11-20-13 01:58 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The newest "Poor Man's Rivendell" for me is the soon to be produced Velo-Orange Camargue. It's a mid-trail, diamond-framed bike with clearance for 700c x 60mm tires. It's designed for off-road touring and expedition riding. Can you say "Rivendell Hunqapillar"? There are all these fantastic bikes out there with tire clearances that max out at about 45mm and then there are Schwalbe Big Apples that get a LOT of rave reviews and many of the aforementioned bicycles can't utilize them. A bike like the Camargue and the Hunqapillar seems like a no-brainer to me. I think a lot of folks would like to run 29'er tires on a non-MTB. These bikes fit that role perfectly.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=351722

KonAaron Snake 11-20-13 02:00 PM

The V-O you;re talking about is also HAWT.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pO4FyGqh6K...00/casey+1.jpg

corwin1968 11-20-13 02:22 PM

At first I wasn't too crazy about it's appearance but it has grown on me considerably. The image you posted of the Camargue outfitted for an adventure makes it look much better. I've been ready to pull the trigger on buying a Surly Ogre but I'm waiting for the final geometry charts for the Camargue before I decide.

vaultbrad 11-20-13 06:34 PM

My "poor man's Riv". Only a couple hundred into the whole thing. I've no need* for anything nicer.
http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps846c07dc.jpg
http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps0f759419.jpg




*Desire on the other hand... I really want a Hunquapillar. And an A. Homer Hilsen, and a.....etc.

DIMcyclist 11-25-13 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axiom (Post 16144875)
Not sure how much cheaper they are, but try Waterford bikes maybe?

If you're not careful, Waterfords can run you a pretty penny- they're very nice bikes. A friend of mine in the Bay Area lost track of his budget with a Waterford ST14 and it ended up costing him fully as much as a fully decked-out Riv (or a Breadwinner for that matter). He loves it, but it cost him almost as much as his Subaru (granted, he did buy the car used). ;)

corwin1968 11-25-13 06:24 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by vaultbrad (Post 16264059)
My "poor man's Riv". Only a couple hundred into the whole thing. I've no need* for anything nicer.
http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/y...ps846c07dc.jpg





*Desire on the other hand... I really want a Hunquapillar. And an A. Homer Hilsen, and a.....etc.


That is a sweet bike! Very similar in appearance to Grant's 90's era Atlantis. I have a similar project in the works. I just picked up an 80's Takara MTB and I plan to fix it up and see how I like it. If that style of geometry appeals to me I'll look for a higher quality frameset, like a Stumpjumper.

Grant's Atlantis:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=352465

Ozonation 11-25-13 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 16263149)
The V-O you;re talking about is also HAWT.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pO4FyGqh6K...00/casey+1.jpg

Hmmmm... NICE bike. What I find amusing is that when I was looking around for bikes two summers ago, the TREK website said some of their (hybrid style) bikes had *wide* clearance for tires... which in their parlance meant.... 35 mm tires. Having grown up with a cheap big box road bike, 35 mm didn't seem all that wide to me! If the Velo can clear up to 60 mm, that would be tremendous.

I'm guessing the Velo is running an IGH? I kind of like the fact that it doesn't use disc brakes: maybe that will change for me, but I spent 45 minutes the other night truing and fine tuning the rear disc brake on my fat bike - it never seems quite as easy as the online experts seem to make it out to be!

I have to admit I'm fortunate enough to now own both a Sam and a Hunqapillar. They ride a little differently - and that's a good thing - but you can still pick up a fair amount of speed on the Hunqapillar. I'm running Schwalbe Big Bens - the beefier cousin to the Big Apples. Great tires. The only problem is that I can't fit a fender between the tire and brake, and because the brakes are centre pull, the bridging brackets I've seen for split fenders might not work either. I've been trying to come up with an elegant workaround, but haven't really figured it out yet.

1987cp 11-25-13 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake (Post 16263149)
The V-O you;re talking about is also HAWT.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-pO4FyGqh6K...00/casey+1.jpg


What do you think of that Crazy handlebar? It looks to me like it just might make sense - for a lot of riding, really. I literally just this minute discovered they're offering one for sale already ... I don't need a bar right now, but this looks awfully interesting to try!


http://store.velo-orange.com/media/c.../_/3_4_1_3.jpg

bikemig 11-25-13 10:20 AM

I like the VO camargue a lot. I guess my new winter commuter fits this thread. It has a mixture of vintage deore xt parts (hubs, shifters), cheap shimano RD and front, tektro cantis, a dura ace crank, and conti winter contact II tires that I've been enjoying on frozen streets:

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...3&d=1385347222

corwin1968 11-25-13 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1987cp (Post 16276466)
What do you think of that Crazy handlebar? It looks to me like it just might make sense - for a lot of riding, really. I literally just this minute discovered they're offering one for sale already ... I don't need a bar right now, but this looks awfully interesting to try!


http://store.velo-orange.com/media/c.../_/3_4_1_3.jpg

I thought the bar made a lot of sense the first time I saw it and in fact, had envisioned something very similar in the past.

1987cp 11-25-13 11:58 AM

The Crazy bar reminds me of the parts I enjoyed about playing with a time-trialish bar in the past, with the benefit of a hand position I should be able to actually reach whilst going slow and looking around (the need for which is why the two bikes I've ridden much recently have an Albatross and a Bosco).

jkbannon 11-25-13 01:30 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I recently finished this build, my "poor-man's rivendell" - a late 70s/early 80s Palo Alto branded tourer made by Biemmezeta with columbus tubing in Italy. It still needs its racks, and possibly different handlebars, but I'm almost finished (are we ever finished?).

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=352504http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=352505http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=352506

KonAaron Snake 11-25-13 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkbannon (Post 16277117)
I recently finished this build, my "poor-man's rivendell" - a late 70s/early 80s Palo Alto branded tourer made by Biemmezeta with columbus tubing in Italy. It still needs its racks, and possibly different handlebars, but I'm almost finished (are we ever finished?).

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=352504http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=352505http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=352506

I'm working on mine this winter - also a BMZ sports tourer style. Beautiful work - I really like the frame; I hope it rides as good as it looks. I'm working on an odd build - sort of Riv'ish...either stache bars or north roads, barcons, triple on front, light racks, fenders.

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/a...167B21A1B3.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/a...16817551FC.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/a...14BDC80E1D.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/a...14B2092601.jpg

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/a...14A4E76C21.jpg


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