avaserfi

Out of curiosity, and because it is a possibility, would there be significant benefits to moving the price range up to about $800 a bike? If we do this we wouldn't want to upgrade again in a while. No point in making the mistake of cheaping out only to upgrade a year later again, losing money in the long run.

We already have sufficient lights. The bag situation is fine for now, but my bike would probably need a rear rack and panniers for groceries sometime in the near future. Also, right now we have little plastic rear fenders that use tension to attach to the seat post, these work fine, but a more stable unit would be required for the bike with a rack due to placement. The budget it prior to these additions, but some recommendations on a well priced pannier system would be great too.

Thanks for all the help.

PaulRivers

Yes.

$800/bike gets you into entry-level road bike range. With a road bike, you won't max out your gears unless you're going downhill really fast (and when you reach that point, it starts to feel kinda unsteady to pedal, road racers do an aero tuck and stop pedalling I think). You'll have a better aerodynamic position, something that's not as big of a deal on the flat but which you'll notice when riding into a strong wind - from your description it sounds like it would help a lot. The bike will be lighter so hills will be easier (not that it will be a miracle, but "easier"). You won't have any of the extra weight or inefficiency of suspension either.

Road bikes have skinnier tires, which means navigating around potholes rather than just plowing over them like you can with a fatter tire. One big drawback is that a lot of time road bikes *can't* take much larger tires than they come with, they don't have enough clearance (space between the wheel and the frame of the bike). I don't think you'll miss the mountain bike suspension, but a skinnier tire will definitely give you a less plush ride. It's a matter of personal preference whether this is an issue for you - with my current road bike the ride is still nice enough that I'm happy to give up a fatter tire for more speed (yeah it's not as plush as a fat tire, but it's not "uncomfortable" really either), but I've also ridden older road bikes where the ride was pretty uncomfortable.

I would suggest test riding a road bike if possible to get a feeling for if you'll like it. Road bikes are generally group into the "road race" and "endurance" categories, ask for the "endurance" one (they're designed with comfort in mind more than fast responsive (also sometimes known as "twitchy") handling).

There are some road bike frames that accept larger tires, but the only one I know of offhand - Surly Crosscheck (and some of the other Surly bikes), but it's more like $1k. Perhaps someone else knows of a road frame with more tire clearance more around the $800 mark?

exile

I would check out the Jamis line. They usually provide a nice bike for a nice price. Right now may not be the best time to buy though (used at least). I usually see better deals or offerings right around April and then again around late August and September. If you have friends or family in the larger cities, you might want them to help keep an eye out for you. If you do decide to venture to a larger city, plan to make a day out of it. Have multiple bikes you want to look at, but also let the person(s) know your predicament to see if they will hold it for a time being.

irclean

What sort of bike are you considering an upgrade to; road bike, "performance" hybrid, MTB, comfort bike, etc? That will really help narrow down the choices. FWIW here are some examples of some fine bikes from your specified manufacturers, all of which would make great commuters, but for different reasons:

Trek FX 7.5 WSD; a "performance" hybrid, and therefore not too far removed from what you're used to, riding-position wise. MSRP is above your new $800 budget but you may be able to find it cheaper. It's a step above the 7.3 component-wise, with a carbon fork to help smooth out those rough roads.

Specialized Crosstrail Elite; a "true" hybrid in the sense that it's built to handle both off- and on-road duties. BTW there are probably more definitions of "hybrids" than there are models on the market. This one has a suspension fork for the trail with a lock-out feature for commuting on the roads. It can also accept fenders & a rack.

Giant Transend EX W; This is a 2009 bike that's been discontinued, but you may be able to find one lurking at your Giant dealer, maybe for a steal! It's got and Alfine IGH and is already "commuterized" with fenders & a rack.

Jamis Satellite Sport Femme; an entry-level, steel-framed road bike with provisions for racks and fenders. Would make a great commuter, IMHO.

Of course all of these manufacturers have their own ideas of one another's bikes. Good luck and happy hunting!

meanwhile

There are, but they're irrelevant. At a reasonable rate of pedal rotation an MTB will top at about 35mph - if you have that much leg strength and don't mind arriving wherever you are going soaked in sweat.

Other than pedaling harder there are two ways to make a bike move faster on the flat (assuming your suspension forks have lockouts) -

1. Reduce air resistance. This typically means a low position that's less comfortable and less suited for keeping an eye on traffic.

2. Reduce rolling resistance by using faster tyres. Contrary to what most people think this doesn't mean thinner tyres but tyres made from better rubber compound. Marathon Supremes are a good choice for speed, grip, longevity and puncture resistance.

The Kona Smoke is probably a good choice for the type of riding you are doing, but - as long as those suspension forks on your current bike lock - I don't think it will make a noticeable difference in commuting time for you.

Oh - if the forks don't lock, then see if you can pick up replacement rigid (ie non suspension) forks cheaply at an LBS or on ebay. You should be able to fit them yourself, but if not a local mechanic shouldn't charge much.

meanwhile

For the length and type of journey you are talking about, probably not. An alfine internal hub would reduce maintenance and disk brakes would improve braking in the wet - assuming you had tyres with good wet grip to make use of them. Otoh, kool stop salmon brake pads will improve wet weather braking a lot and you can fit them to your current bike for $20.

meanwhile

This is ridiculous: the speeds these people are riding at are far below those needed to max out their gears. Being able to get to 45mph on a descent is priority for a racer, but not for a commuter!

The Cross Check is a cyclocross bike strictly speaking - so referring to it as a road bike is a little misleading as it is designed to be ridden off road. As another poster already suggested, Bikes Direct sells cross bikes from $500.

Drops are good for riding into the wind if you don't mind the *very* low position - depending on traffic you might not think it wise to use them, as doing so reduces your ability to look around very substantially.

But switching to drop bars to increase commuting speed for a 6 mile commute??? Not terribly sensible. Especially if money is tight and bikes aren't enjoyed as toys.

meanwhile

Blackburn racks are hammer proof. At least I assume they still are - I bought one 20 years ago, used it for bike courier work and later gave it to a friend. It's still going strong on his bike.

PaulRivers

With the same riding position and style of bike, it probably won't be a big change from the bikes they currently have vs putting slicks on their current bike. It may well be more reliable and have easier shifting going uphill, but it is unlikely to be particularly faster.

I could be wrong, it's probably the second best bet. But since the OP feels like they're being held back by wind and hills, I would still say a road bike would be better.

This might actually be a downgrade. I just talked to someone at work who went from a Crosstrail to a Specialized Sectuer (an "endurance" road bike), and they said they couldn't believe how ineffective that front shock turned out to be. It's also a heavy bike.

In my opinion, and from my person experience, I think an IGH is the wrong way to go if you want to go faster, and you're running out of gears like the OP is. It's heavier, bigger gaps between gears, and slightly less efficient.

That looks nice! I wonder how big of tires it would take. It comes with 25c, so it's not a "designed as a racing machine" kind of bike - wonder what kind of tire clearance it has.

The components are kind of low end (2300 front derailler, Sora rear derailler) - though I cannot personally say whether that would be a problem or not (I'm not familiar with anything below a Sora/Tiagra mix...err - I mean, the "low end" stuff last year, which actually works just fine :-)).

irclean

^^^PaulRivers makes some great points here. I was mostly trying to highlight the myriad of choices available out there. BTW the reference to the Transend was due the OP's expressed interest in IGH-equipped bikes. The Satellite is also available in higher-level (and therefore higher-priced) versions. In the interest of keeping it simple, ride as many different types and brands of bikes in your price range as you can, and go with what feels best. You would also be well advised to approach other customers at the different shops to ask them about their experience (sales/service) with each LBS... discreetly, of course.

jsmonet

*whistle* would sram apex on open pros + cross check + fsa omega bars (cheapest good drops i've ever touched) be that far over budget? eh, probably

slvoid

My partner and I started on pretty much the same exact bikes. Right now I'm on a scott sub 2 and it's pretty nice. I find they have a pretty good mix of features plus a real nice subtle style.

PaulRivers

There is a difference in gearing for sure - road bike have higher grears (go faster but harder to pedal).

The OP said one problem was maxing out of gears for part of the ride. It would stand to reason that higher gearing might help.

And the 35mph is just crazy talk. I haven't gone over 35mph on my *road* bike at any point, and I have run out of gears several times.

To the OP - I honestly just though of this - sometimes people only shift with the rear gears. Do you know about shifting through the front gears? You probably do - just a question.

If the OP hadn't said that a lot of their route was hills, this might be more relevant.

In general I don't totally disagree with you on the flat. Less weight helps on the hills though.

I did a search for "Giant Boulder". The first result that showed up was $330. In comparison, the cost of a replacement fork and installation may be significant in comparison.

On the other hand, for $400 you might just be getting a bike that's equivalent to what you have now. So replacing the fork might do just as well.

As I mentioned, in my opinion this is not the way to go. Also - owning one, the supposed benefits of an internal hub with a chain are *highly*, *highly* overated. If you want low maintenance, an IGH with a belt seems like it might actually be less maintenance by removing the chain (the biggest source of maintenance) from the bike.

I generally agree. Disc brakes are certainly "nice", though not necessarily "necessary".


What's rediculous is your assertion that a mountain bike will max out at 35mph. I don't know what it is offhand, but the threshold is much lower than that. If you've been reading the threads lately, you've seen several people say that being in excellent biking shape they can keep up with roadies on their mountain bike (not all the roadies, but the middle of the pack usually, or just people who aren't in as good of shape as they are) - but they run out of gears. And since the OP mentioned running out of gears, yeah, I think that might be a problem (though running out of gears with a 13mph average does seem odd).

And what's misleading is trying to say that the crosscheck is designed as an offroad bike. It isn't. It is almost exclusively used as a commuter. Even the Crosscheck page says "What does all this mean to you? Options, kid, that's what. Get yer freak on. Gears? Great. Single-speed? No sweat. Commuter? Touring bike? Grocery getter? Bring it on. Or build it as a bonafide ’cross bike and race it. It likes it."

Seriously. It's practically the stereotypical commuter frame/bike. I don't know that there's a single person who even uses it for cyclocross racing, but if there is they are vastly outnumbered by the number of people who use it for commuting.

Regarding drops, I wouldn't say the position is "very" low. Not with an "endurance" or "relaxed geometry" frame like I suggested (like on the Crosscheck, or the Specialized Sectuer). Actually - I can't think of anything under $2k that actually comes with handlebars lower than the seat - what you're talking about is usually reserved for high-end, racy, expensive bikes.

Using bike with drops makes looking behind you more difficult, but certainly not nearly as impossible as is implied. Half the people I know commute on road bikes, myself included.

-----------------------------------

Starting with "6-7 miles one way that takes 25-35", that's 6.5 miles in 30 minutes, or 13mph. When you take into account hills and wind, that's a pretty typical speed. If a road bike brought that speed up to 15mph, that's 26 minutes. That doesn't seem like a whole lot, until you realize that 4 minutes each way times 10 times a week is 40 minutes a week you would cut off the commute. And 15mph is the safe bet. You could see 16mph average (though that's more the best-case scenario). That's 24.375, or 5.625 minutes each trip, or 56.25 minutes each week - about an hour a week.

However, just to contradict myself, if you have a lot of stoplights it's much more of a mixed bag. When a decent part of that average speed is waiting at lights, that time spend sitting there won't change no matter how fast your bike is.

I think we've really covered everything so far in the thread. For $400, you aren't getting much of an upgrade. For $800 or so on a new hybrid, you're getting a nicer more reliable bike with better shifting and such, but not really much faster. For that same $800 you could get a road bike, and an $800 road/cyclocross bike is about as fast as you're going to get, even if you spent a lot more money. It would probably 2-3mph average faster vs a mountain bike with slicks (though less so if you spent much time at stoplights). The biggest concern with a road bike is the tire clearance - room for fatter tires if you decide the ride from the skinny tires is to harsh, and room for fenders.

Kimmitt 

The only real reason to change your entire bike is to change geometries. Most other things can be handled through retrofitting.

My 2c is to try getting "real" slicks (26 x 1.5 or so, and not just the cheap one on the rack), good brakes, and a bike shop tuneup to keep your bike running super-smoothly. Then see if you want to play with different handlebars or bar ends. $400 goes way farther in customizing a decent bike than in buying a new one. You can even consider changing out your drivetrain. Indeed you could buy an internally geared rear wheel (be sure to match your dropout width) and a new front chainring, and find that it improves your experience dramatically.

If you wanted to upgrade for real, $800 is a decent price point, but for some reason, $1k seems to be where Really Good Bikes start to happen. Something like the Surly Long Haul Trucker (LHT), for example. Of course, a used LHT sells for less . . .

My contribute on the road vs. mtb discussion is that I find that the more aggressive riding posture is unnerving in traffic for me. I like to be able to see from a little higher up. But that's my preference, yada yada.

iforgotmename

Save your money and get a Surly Seriously I had a diamondback that was a victim of a lot of upgrading. The two things that helped make it a speedy commuter was a rigid fork and good slicks. https://www.schwalbetires.com/node/37 These tires are not cheap but they are quick and very comfortable. After I assembled the perfect match of components I ended up buying A Surly LHT frame and switching everything over. I started doing my own mech work so I saved a couple of bucks there. I could have done it cheaper if I bought a complete LHT but I do have the bike that I want. A cyclocross bike is an excellent choice and the Crosscheck is a really great bike. Do yuorself a favor and drink the Surly Kool Aid

slvoid

avaserfi

I really appreciate all the help. Today (I think) we are going to go around town and check out the options and see what we like. Locally in stock we should see some Jamis, Specialized, Trek and Giant bikes. We will give some roadbikes a test ride and see if it is worth the money to us.

I poked around about building the bikes up out of curiosity and because I think it would be a fun project to learn from (never done it before). It doesn't really seem like building a bike at this price point is worth it financially (if I am wrong please correct me, I love a project and would like to learn more about bike building/repair), and I honestly don't know enough about bikes to pick every component in a competent manner, but could learn to save some money and learn valuable skills.

As far as Surly bikes go, I've never ridden one, but have heard many good things and I like their styling. I am hoping to try one out along the way.

Rhodabike

Don't get an internally geared bike if you're maxing out your current gearing. As much as I like the Shimano Alfine on my commuter, I have to say that I have much the same problem - maxing it out one way, struggling the other. That's with the eight speed - seven and lower have even more limited range. I.G.H. bikes mainly excel in stop-and-go downtown riding over flatter roads. They're heavy - my present aluminum Rocky Mountain Metropolis weighs 10 pounds more than the 23 year old steel touring bike it replaced.
I'm inclined to agree with Exile, a used road bike with fender eyelets might be your best bet.

BarracksSi

Depends on how cheap you can find stuff, but it can be managed -- although buying a whole bike and retrofitting it later will almost always be more expensive than a new, equipped-as-you-really-wanted bike the first time around.

Yup, certainly a preference. With road bars, I've gotten to like how they're narrower than MTB bars so I can squeeze through spaces easier. I ride on the hoods most of the time on the street, which puts me at eye level with the roofs of most SUVs anyway.

slvoid, was that 42 mph on the flats?

meanwhile

I'm sorry; I missed the OP saying that. It does make your post about gear range seem less wantonly egregious, although I think you are still wrong :
if the OP is maxing out, then he should learn to spin properly. Especially if he intends to ride more. Because the alternative in the long term can be a blown knee.

Then you're not spinning properly either. The maths for the gear systems is pretty simple: a proper spin rate on standard MTB gearing will get you 35mph on the flat. If you had the ridiculously high leg strength needed to overcome the air resistance - oh and "proper" means the standard racer should aim for. But even so, there is no way this guy should be running out of gears at the top of the range.

No, I haven't seen a thread like that and don't trust your interpretation - not when I know the maths and that I could keep up with a roadie when I was a courier on a flat bar (if I slipstreamed) and certainly didn't run out of gears. And I was in the bad habit of using too high a gear and not spinning fast enough. With a better spin rate I could have a couple of gears down.

You really think that someone who takes 35 minutes to 6 miles is running out of gears at the top of the range without having a problem in pedaling technique???

It might be used that way by people you know, but the Cross Check was designed as a cyclocross bike. (If you can say "designed" of a bike that faithfully replicates the design of a typical traditional crosser so exactly.) That is why it is called the Cross Check. And cyclocross takes place off road. (Btw - basic logic and English: "designed" not equal "used".)

However, I was being pointlessly pedantic - like all crossers, the Cross Check makes a great road bike.

If you go into any bike store selling drop handles you'll find lots of low bar bikes from $500. If you are lucky you will see a Trek or Spec comfort drop bar, if the dealer handles those brands. Cyclocross bikes of any kind are so rare that people post on the cross forum asking which ones to travel halfway across their state to see. And most crossers are low bar bikes - I'm fitting a 55 degree stem to mine and the bars will still be below the saddle - which I have towards the low end of the range!

And, yes, even a "comfort" drop bar position will still seem low to someone who has been riding the OP's bike.

I didn't "imply" anything; I said that it would be more difficult. Exactly as you just said!

Yes, that's true. If you multiply a small number it eventually becomes large. Well done!

Has the OP had any reliability problems? Cheap bikes are extremely reliable and have been for the past 20 years.

..But there's a good chance they'd hate the riding position in traffic. A lot of people do. I don't, you don't, but a lot of people do. This isn't something to ignore, especially as you don't how old the OP is, how flexible his neck and spine are, etc.

PaulRivers

In Specialized bikes, the Sectuer is their cheaper "endurance" road bike, that would be my first suggestion to try (my first suggestion in Specialized store). The Allez is their more "race" oriented bike, though as I mentioned at anything under $2k they do make sure it will be comfy enough for you average rider - I would definitely suggest the more stable geometry and handling of the Sectuer if you're planning hauling groceries and stuff like that.

If you're looking for a good deal, you might ask if they still have a Sequoia - that was Specialized's old (discontinued) "endurance road" model. If they're trying to get rid of one, you might find a good deal on it.

By all means, test ride other brands. Specialized is just what I'm familiar with, hard for me to give advice on brands I don't know about. :-) I would definitely suggest trying a Surly if you can find one!

It is just cheaper to buy a whole bike than to build a whole bike from scratch.

One thing would add - no matter what style of bike you get, the absolute, most important, #1 thing to remember when buying a bike is to buy a bike that's the right size. Whatever you do, don't let anyone talk you into a bike that's to small "but they came make it work" for you, or to big but "it was just such a good deal".

Kimmitt 

+1 on size. Size will hose you if you do it wrong, period.

avaserfi

Just got back from a local shop that carries Jamis bikes. I road three bikes, the Coda, their single speed Beatnik and the Ventura Sport. I told the person working our situation and he recommended either the Coda or the Beatnik because they are steel framed and according to him more they are generally more suitable for commuting.

I didn't really care for the Beatnik, but figured I would try it. SS isn't for me, I guess. Although,I did like the steating position. It felt like it was somewhere between a mountain bike and a road bike. The Coda felt too much like what I am already on. It felt faster, but I not too much different. The Ventura was pretty nice, I've never really been on a road bike before so it took some adjusting. I think I like the idea of a steel bike for the commute more. Not 100% on a road bike though. I'm just not sure if the aggressive seating position is exactly what I want to be in for the whole ride. Something between the position of the Beatnik and the Ventura would probably be ideal. Hopefully soon I can get on some more bikes.

exile

I've always liked the Jamis Aurora. It's listed as a touring/commuting bike, but probably out of your price range. It should give you a riding position halfway between the usual road bike and mountain bike setup. Also, you will get used to the riding position on a road bike, you just need patience and practice. Also, don't discount other frame materials. Other factors come into play comfort wise (which is relative to begin with) when looking at bikes.

Sometimes when looking for new bikes, you just have to be patient. It took me a few months of looking (in different areas), with multiple test rides, before I decided on one.

irclean

Jamis has a whole line of steel road bikes ranging from about $650 to over $3000. The Aurora series of touring bikes have MTB gearing (in the rear) and all the others have road bike gearing. The higher priced non-touring models lack eyelets for fenders and racks so caveat emptor.