m_yates

I don't mind that "Windsor" or "Motobecane" names are being used by bikesdirect. What I think is fishy is pretending to be a separate company, which bikesdirect clearly does.

The QBP brands don't do this. Visit the Surly web site, or the Civia one. If you search for Surly dealers, the web site states that they are part of QBP and most bike shops can order from them. The Civia web site has a page on the history of the company talking about how QBP decided to target the commuter market with a new brand. They don't hide the fact that they are part of QBP.

Try visiting motobecane.com, windsorbicycles.com, cyclesmercier.com, and dawescyclesusa.com and see if you can find information anywhere stating that they are exclusively distributed by bikesdirect.com, manufactured exclusively for bikesdirect.com, and in fact owned by or part of bikesdirect.com

It is just the misleading nature of this that rubs me the wrong way.

RT

Understood, but where is the foul? You get a decent frame with quality parts for a price no LBS can touch. You are buying what you see, so you know what you are getting. If you were getting something inferior to what you thought you were getting, THEN you'd have a problem, but this is not the case from what I've seen.

All we're talking about here is a name, and an old, discarded one at that.

dynodonn 

Not always, I have a stripped BD Moto frame and wheels up in the shop rafters due to flex issues from their being under built. The BD bike money could have been used to buy the bike I was eyeing at the LBS, instead of collecting dust, or used as future replacement parts for my other LBS bikes.

RT

The frame was questionable, or the wheels?

interested

Well, many, many bicycle company owning companies does exactly that. It is almost an exception otherwise. The reason is marketing; because people associate different things to different brands. So Dorel sells beach cruisers under the "Schwinn" brand and fast road bikes under the "Cannondale" brand. Same company, perhaps even same factory, but different brands for different markets.

On Surly's homepage this is what I could find:
https://surlybikes.com/dealers/
" Most can. In the U.S. we sell to shops through Quality Bicycle Products, and most shops here can order from QBP."
Reading this I would only think that QBP was a distributor (which they also are), not that they owned Surly bikes and the brand.
Same with Civia and the same with Salsa, though their blog (not their contact info) talks about their relationship with QBP.
All in all they don't exactly brag about their ownership.
That "Motobecane USA" is a BD brand isn't exactly an internet secret either.

First of all, I really think that all what those not very pretty websites do is scaring costumers away. But the owner of these brands and BD may have good business reasons to have separate web sites, including selling one of the brands to the right buyer, or start selling/distribute a particular brand to all LBS's in the future.

For the costumer I can hardly see any difference between buying an exclusive brand (only sold through a certain line of stores and web shops) and a more general brand, that may only be sold to "authorized shops". Anyway, several big bicycle retailers have websites for a particular exclusive brand that only they sell without it being obvious that this is the case. (Decathlon/Btwin bikes but I know many more). The owner of BD just does what many other bicycle brand owners do.


--
Regards

dynodonn 

Both

MK313

I'm not really sure that I can think of any other ways that the company might "try to deceive customers". Aside from the naming, I can't think of any other ways in which the company would be able to pull off any kind of deception and get away with it. Aside from some customers having fit and/or assembly issues (which can probably be said of any bike manufacturer/LBS-to varying degrees), I haven't heard of any other charges leveled against the company. What other ways might such a company build upon their 'deception' to defraud customers? After a certain number of years in business, I think that hints at larger scale nefariousness must be discarded as nothing more than speculation.

stringbreaker

OP was asking about good and bad experiences not opinions on their business practices or whether they are decieving the public selling old name brands. Seems like a lot of these posts get into a BD bashing party. I'm not saying they are perfect cause they are not but go to your LBS and see how often they try to sell you up to the next model or load you up with accessories you may or may not need. My opinion of my purchase from the is positive. I researched several LBS and the internet and know my fit, which is something everyone should have an idea about. If I was a complete newb then I might think twice about buying online find a good LBS and buy from them if you can they will (if they are reputable) do what they can to keep you coming back, my favorite guys know me and will bend over backwards to help me out. When I took this bike in they didn't care where it came from cause they still got paid to work on it. Now some of the items on my bike were pretty cheesy and I changed them and even with that I still have a sub $1000.00 bike. Its a good value and the workmanship on the frame welds and everything else is as good or better than I have seen on more expensive bikes. I have some wrenching ability and can assemble myself but I did as I wrote in my first response have my LBS guys check it out and true the wheels. Its not a Rivendell but then its not advertised as such.

bmclaughlin807

Kind of like Pacific Bicycles buying the Schwinn brand and selling bikes labeled as such?

Or how about Bell bicycle products buying and using the Giro name for helmets?

There are COUNTLESS examples of companies doing this throughout modern history, most of them having nothing to do with bicycles... It's a VERY common practice.

The -only- thing I can see even marginally deceptive about BikesDirect is their 'List Price'... since the bikes are not sold elsewhere, is their 'List Price' really a valid price? I think not... though it is a pretty decent comparison to what you'd expect to pay for a similar bike from other companies.

PS:

Giro Customer Service
735 Pacesetter Drive
Rantoul, IL. 61866
U.S.A.
800-456-2355 (tel)
feedback@giro.com

Google:

Bell Racing Co‎
735 Pacesetter Drive
Rantoul, IL 61866-3659
(217) 892-4177
bellracing.com‎

CCrew

I think the number of shills that pop up on BF with 1 or two posts claiming that BD is the best thing since sliced bread is probably the #1 thing that raises the hackles of the members here. Some have been exposed as such. I'd call that pretty deceptive.

I think in the bigger picture though, if you have to resort to sleight of hand to sell a product rather than letting the product stand on it's own it speaks volumes. I've bought one BD bike, I'd never buy another, and I will say if you're buying one with the thought that you may resell it down the road you'll be in for a surprise when you find that they bring half what that name brand bike you passed over to save a buck will bring on the market.

biken

To the OP - I say go for it! I purchased two bikes from BD.com and have been very satisfied. One of the bikes had a defective front derailleur. I contacted BD and they sent me out a new one as a replacement.

A lot of people on here overlook the fact that some LBS suck. The ones that are in my area certainly suck. I wish they were better and, if they were, I would have probably bought from them and never delt with bd.com. However, when I went to my local shops to look at cyclocross bikes - shop A.) did not stock any cross bikes and told me that I would be happier with a road bike.. even though I had already told them my preference was for a cross bike because I wanted something that I could take on fireroads, single-track, and still enjoy it on pavement as well. They even suggested I buy both a mountain bike and a road bike. LOL.. Ka-ching! $$$ No thanks.

So I go to shop B.) and they also do not stock cross bikes. They wanted to gladly order me one at more than the MSRP for a Fuji brand bike.. After researching online, I found out that the Motobecane cross bikes are basically re-badged Fuji bikes at a huge discount.. I saved over $1000 by buying from Bikes Direct. I would not hesitate to buy from them again.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for supporting a GOOD LBS, but the "good" ones seem few and far between.

bmclaughlin807

Hope you don't ever race... if so couldn't ANY bike ride be considered 'training' for such?

dynodonn 

I'm still amazed to keep hearing how some BD customers get new parts shipped out to them, replacing defective/damaged parts, in a flash. Yet when I ask for a new wheel to replace one with a damaged spoke from improper factory packaging, I would have to ship it back to them at my expense, wait for their tech to fix it, and then for them to ship it back to me.

tjspiel

Because it's done by others, it's OK? I think it's a shame what Pacific has done with the name Schwinn. I dislike them more than BD. By most accounts at least what BD sells is a cut or two above the best Walmart Schwinn.

Sorry. Too many people let unethical behavior slide because "it's business". Businesses are run by people.

tjspiel

Of course I don't know exactly why BD bought and used those names, but I bet it sure makes it easier as a new online retailer when a curious buyer can google one of your brands and stuff shows up. Even if the buyer had never heard of Motobecane before there's a benefit. It is possible that the BD folks were just bike enthusiasts and thought it would be cool to bring back a couple of dead brands. So maybe I'm being overly cynical.

Motobecane made some very nice bikes including TDF winners, along with very average ones. Just like Peugeot (also defunct). The right vintage models fetch a steep price. Plenty of companies that have made great products end up defunct.

Well, there are quite a few differences. From what I've observed, the local (Minnesota) bike biz is kind of incestuous. It has to be, the Twin Cities isn't that big. QBP and Surly's relationship goes right back to the beginning of Surly. Surly was started by people who had connections to QBP, - including current and former employees. Civia, I believe has always been a QBP brand. Don't know how Salsa ended up with them.

Back in '99 or so after the Crosscheck came out, Surly had only a few full time employees. About a year ago I was looking for a particular type of cyclocross handlebar and posted an add on Craigslist. A guy replied saying he had a set that he'd sell me because he ended up buying a larger size. It turns out the seller was one of the old Surly guys. He owns a bikeshop/cafe now. The bars he sold me were Salsas.

bmclaughlin807

So... it's ok for Civia, Surley, Salsa, etc. to be marketed as 'independent' brands without revealing they're owned by QBP, but it's NOT ok for BikesDirect to do the same with it's brands? I'm kinda confused.

Checked the websites... Of 11 brands owned by QBP, I only found passing mention of QBP on 3 sites.... One they're mentioned as a distributor, one for customer service, and on one (Handspun) they seem to mention it only to try to bring forward any good will they engendered as a division of QBP before being separated out into an individual brand, with no mention of ongoing ownership.

Santaria

QBP doesn't 'own' Surly or Salsa. They're distro. The actually 'brands' are independent of them.

They're not even in the same state.

tjspiel

It's really not that confusing.

Motobecane: Decades old French brand that folded. Name now used by a US outfit called BikesDirect that has no connection with old company.

Surly: Minnesota based brand distributed by a Minnesota based company who's employees played a large role in getting the brand off the ground.

Go to QBP's website. On the first page is a clear link to a page that lists it's brands.

Now, go to BikeDirect's page. Can you find any place where it says that Motobecane USA is owned by BikesDirect?


QBP didn't use Surly's good name to get a foothold in the bike business. QBP helped Surly get it's start in the first place. I do think you're right in that Surly doesn't play up the fact that it's owned by a large distributer. They'd rather the public think it's just a few quirky guys and gals who love bikes that do all the work of marketing, designing, accounting, sourcing, shipping, etc. It's part of the image they're trying to sell. I find that to be a little dishonest too, but not rising to the level of what BD has done.

tjspiel

QBP, Surly, Civia, and at least one of the other brands is based in Minnesota. Several of the pictures on the Surly and Civia website were taken in places I recognize. I'd almost guarantee that several members of the Civia and Surly staffs know each other.

QBP refers to them as independent business units which means they are part of the same company. Having once worked in a large company that had several "business units", I can tell you that the cultures between them can be very different and sometimes one business unit will see and treat another one as a competitor.

I don't know if in the BD world there's a Dawes and a Motobecane business unit or if it's really just different component configurations and different paint.

tcs

I bought a bike at my city's largest, best established bike shop. Based on the quality of their prep work and attention to detail, not to mention their after-sale service...

I wouldn't hesitate to buy my next bike on-line from BD.

tcs

Oh my. What you must think of today's Sturmey-Archer.

-=(8)=-

post of the thread

dahut

Piffle. Wheel truing is something anyone with the intelligence to ride a bike can do. You are the rider of the machine; it behooves you to know how it works and by that virtue, to know when something is amiss.
Wheel truing is tedious in the extreme, but it isn't difficult. A little imagination and time is all it takes.

And yes, you can true the wheel on the frame. Having the right tool for any job is the ideal, and a wheel truing stand makes the work go smoother. This is especially so for the rear wheel, because of all the shift gear back there. But it can be done on the frame with only minor inconvenience.
Of course you will need to firmly block or clamp the frame off the ground at a convenient height for working. Visit www.instructables.com and search for bike stands - there are a lot of impromptu and alternative work stand designs presented there for you to consider. Andnearly allof them are NO-or-low cost.
(You'll find a couple of wheel truing stands there, too.)

Not to sound indelicate, but before our society became awash in throw away income, we actually did things ourselves. Its only in recent times that we have come to believe we must give our money to others - to do the things we should be doing for ourselves.

tjspiel

Guess it depends on why you mean by recent. When I was a kid we used to pay people to pump our gas, deliver our milk, and bag our groceries. I doubt the percentage of cyclists that true their own wheels has changed much in 50 years.

dynodonn 

My LBS is not the best or the biggest, but their prep work and after the sales service is still leaps and bounds better than having a large brown box showing up at my door step, not to mention having to converse back and forth via email with an online vendor over any unforeseen issues.