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Old 10-04-10, 08:39 PM   #1
WalksOn2Wheels
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Number one reason to stop at a stop sign.

Because cars don't.

Seriously, I was rolling up to a stop sign, which I always stop at anyway, and I saw a lady in an SUV pull up, barely come to a stop, if at all, and then barrel right through without so much as a glance left or right for traffic.

Since the SUV-bot was probably only programmed to detect masses of metal more than one ton approaching, it's unlikely she would have even noticed a bicycle that decided to roll through the stop sign.
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Old 10-04-10, 08:44 PM   #2
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Good point.
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Old 10-04-10, 08:53 PM   #3
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If there is no traffic, my foot doesn't hit the ground. If there is traffic, I get ready to deploy my foot. That seems adequate to me.
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Old 10-04-10, 09:18 PM   #4
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Well, for sure, coming from a motorcycle background, my feet rarely touch the ground at a stop if I can help it. I can't do a brakestand, but I'll hover for a bit with both feet on the pedals and can do so for maybe 5-10 seconds. Just long enough to make sure everyone in the intersection is aware you're stopping and giving them the right of way/waiting your turn.
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Old 10-05-10, 06:29 AM   #5
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Pot, meet kettle.
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Old 10-05-10, 06:47 AM   #6
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Pot, meet kettle.
Right... Listen, there's a huge difference between coming to a complete stop without your feet touching the ground while looking all ways for any traffic vs. blasting through a stop sign without even a glance either way.
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Old 10-05-10, 06:51 AM   #7
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A roll stop is different than blowing through a stop sign. Besides, even if you stop someone will try to run you over eventually when you take your turn.
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Old 10-05-10, 07:04 AM   #8
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But it also sounds like the SUV did a roll stop. I don't get it. "I was coming up to a stop when this SUV came up and either barely stopped or slowly rolled through the stop sign in front of me and then went through it." What was it supposed to do? Stop, roll down the window, smile at the bicycle as it rolled up to the stop sign, waive and exchange pleasantries with the cyclist and give up his right of way to the cyclist? That's ridiculous. From the description, it sounds like the SUV had the right of way and took it. What's the problem?
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Old 10-05-10, 07:24 AM   #9
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Our cars have a very difficult job. They are protecting us and serving us in a very dangerous and complicated world. I am usually thankful for their service, even when I have been cited for breaking our traffic laws. But I hold cars to a very high standard (higher than standards I set for myself) in a job they have voluntarily undertaken.
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Old 10-05-10, 07:31 AM   #10
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I agree with your interpretation, Malloric, whith the one following exception -- soccer mom doesn't appear to have actually looked around before accelerating when she rolled the stop sign. Given the relative invisibility of cyclists to some motorists, it's a real concern.

I wasn't there, so I won't say more lest I make false assumptions. Bottom line, I think Idaho stops are OK, but we should remember that other vehicles already at the intersection have right of way and that we should be vigilant for inattentive drivers since we don't have tons of steel wrapped around us. Best case scenario we're riding on top of 7-8 pounds of steel plus components.
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Old 10-05-10, 07:33 AM   #11
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The problem was not a right of way issue. The problem was that the driver made no effort whatsoever to even look for traffic (I always try to make eye contact as I slow up to a stop sign and their eyes were locked straight ahead) and didn't even come close to a complete stop.

Once again, for purposes of semantics that some people seem to struggle with, you CAN come to a COMPLETE stop on two wheels without your feet touching the ground. My method is not a rolling stop, it is a full stop in which my feet don't touch the ground if they don't have to.

However, the PURPOSE of this thread was to encourage other commuters to avoid running through stop signs even in areas they know and are comfortable with. However they chose to execute this stop is entirely up to them.
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Old 10-05-10, 07:38 AM   #12
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What if I don't stop, slow down to say, 5-ish mph, can see far enough down the road that no vehicles are approaching and go? Without ever reducing my speed to 0 mph?

And of course, if I do see vehicles approaching, I slow down and stop if that's what it takes to wait for the approaching vehicles to clear?
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Old 10-05-10, 07:41 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Malloric View Post
" What was it supposed to do? Stop, roll down the window, smile at the bicycle as it rolled up to the stop sign, waive and exchange pleasantries with the cyclist and give up his right of way to the cyclist?
Offer him cookies at least

Oh, and WalksonTwoWheels, if it doesn't pass the three mississippi test it doesn't count.

As a friend that's a State Trooper says " I have a nightstick. Do you want me to pause when beating you, or stop?"
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Old 10-05-10, 07:58 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsl View Post
Pot, meet kettle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
Right... Listen, there's a huge difference between coming to a complete stop without your feet touching the ground while looking all ways for any traffic vs. blasting through a stop sign without even a glance either way.
Especially when one is comparing tons of metal to mere pounds of metal...

Let me know when a cyclist can cause near the harm and damage as a full SUV.
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Old 10-05-10, 08:32 AM   #15
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Peripheral vision. Unless it's an intersection the size of the Mississippi I can see the intersection perfectly fine without turning my head. Do I turn my head? Yes, but I'm not looking for cars at the intersection. I'm looking for the cars that are 100 feet away. I'm absolutely religious about that on a bike or motorcycle. If I can't make it comfortably through the intersection if the approaching car does not stop, I'll just sit there and wait. In a car I'm less anal about it.

In an ideal world, I'd drive as carefully in a car as I do on two wheels, but I get lazy in a cage. I still turn my head and look, I think, but I'm honestly on autopilot most of the time in a car, so maybe I don't. Point is, if a bicyclists plows through the stop sign into an SUV that's doing the bare minimum, or slightly below by rolling through, the bicyclist is at fault, not the SUV. The SUV driver has no obligation to lookout for people blasting through the stop sign. They can legally assume that other road users will obey the law and stop. Using that as a reason to at least slow down and look and not blast through stop signs isn't a good reason. Not riding negligently solely because you don't feel confident in everyone else being extra careful to avoid you is beyond stupid. Not saying that's the OP as he clearly did stop, but I don't see what the fuss is about.
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Old 10-05-10, 09:19 AM   #16
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Number one reason to stop at a stop sign.

Because cars don't.

What if the car is behind you?
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Old 10-05-10, 10:49 AM   #17
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When I was learning to drive, my mother instilled one piece of advice to me which I have always remembered.

She said, "Drive like everyone around you is an idiot and is trying to hit you."

Obviously it's a bit of an exageration, but the point is to drive defensively and to always be on you toes. I have found that lesson to be just as important while biking as it is while driving.
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Old 10-05-10, 10:57 AM   #18
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I stop at most stop signs especially when there is other traffic present. I do shoal to the front of line of cars and take my turn from there accordingly. When I approach a stop sign with no traffic, I slow down almost to a complete stop, stand on my pedals and do an exaggerate check of the intersection by looking vigorously left and right before proceeding. Technically I did not come to a complete stop, but if a hidden cop gets me, I will plead that I checked the intersection before proceeding through. I emphasize that is when no other traffic is present. I do not blow past stop signs without slowing down.
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Old 10-05-10, 10:58 AM   #19
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99% of the cyclists around here don't turn their heads to look for traffic while pedaling through a stop sign (they don't even stop pedaling). The most egregious stop sign running car I've seen did it at no more than 5mph. Personally, I doubt a pedestrian hit by a car going 5mph is going to be any more hurt than if they were struck by a cyclist doing 20mph.
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Old 10-05-10, 11:51 AM   #20
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Oh, and WalksonTwoWheels, if it doesn't pass the three mississippi test it doesn't count.
Is that actually in your local laws? I suspect not. Ceasing all forward motion, no matter how briefly, is a stop, and is legal.
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Old 10-05-10, 03:30 PM   #21
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Number one reason to stop at a stop sign.
Because it's the law? Remember, cars and bikes are legally considered to be vehicles on the road and need to follow those laws.
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Old 10-05-10, 03:54 PM   #22
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99% of the cyclists around here don't turn their heads to look for traffic while pedaling through a stop sign (they don't even stop pedaling). The most egregious stop sign running car I've seen did it at no more than 5mph. Personally, I doubt a pedestrian hit by a car going 5mph is going to be any more hurt than if they were struck by a cyclist doing 20mph.
Bicycle with rider = 100 KG
Small car weighs 1500 KG

The bike could be doing 50 MPH and I STILL don't think it contains the total force as the car doing 5MPH (if I remember my HS physics).

Obviously, that isn't the end of the story, but cars doing 5 MPH hitting pedestrians do cause plenty of serious injuries and fatalities.
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Old 10-05-10, 04:21 PM   #23
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I figure if I stop, that's one more thing I'm doing right that no one can complain about.
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Old 10-05-10, 04:49 PM   #24
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If there is no traffic, my foot doesn't hit the ground. If there is traffic, I get ready to deploy my foot. That seems adequate to me.
I entirely agree.
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Old 10-05-10, 04:50 PM   #25
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Bicycle with rider = 100 KG
Small car weighs 1500 KG

The bike could be doing 50 MPH and I STILL don't think it contains the total force as the car doing 5MPH (if I remember my HS physics).

Obviously, that isn't the end of the story, but cars doing 5 MPH hitting pedestrians do cause plenty of serious injuries and fatalities.
F = ma. They would both carry the same force if they're at a constant velocity. (That's zero newtons)

Kinetic Energy otoh, is a 100kg cyclist travelling 50mph carries a substantial more amount of kinetic energy than a 1500kg car travelling 5mph.

KE = 0.5mv^2

KE bike = 0.5*100kg*(50mi/hr)^2 = 125000 kg*(mi/hr)^2 (which is the strangest unit for energy ever, but valid none the less)
KE car = 0.5*1500kg*(5mi/hr)^2 = 18750 kg*(mi/hr)^2

KE bike / KE car = 6.67.

The bike carries 6.67 times more kinetic energy than the car.

Its okay, high school physics was a long time ago for me as well.
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