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Old 12-22-10, 09:57 AM   #1
paul2432
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NY Times piece on bike lanes

Some of you may find this interesting.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...-lanes-working

Also, within the piece

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmo...w-york-biking/

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Old 12-22-10, 09:42 PM   #2
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Saw that too. Especially liked what Sam Staley had to say:

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Getting bike acceptance levels up to those of models like Amsterdam and Copenhagen takes more than striping lanes. It takes a focused anti-car policy that dramatically increases the costs of using automobiles. At this point, New York City’s experiment appears to demonstrate more the objective limits of a pro-bike strategy than a ringing endorsement of a major shift in urban transportation policy.
But there 4 others writers with some good input. Large peanut gallery too, quite a few of them genuine actually nuts....
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Old 12-23-10, 12:28 AM   #3
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But in stark contrast to motorists, nearly all of whom follow nearly all the rules, most cyclists seem to treat the rules of the road as strictly optional.
Really?
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Old 12-23-10, 12:59 AM   #4
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But in stark contrast to motorists, nearly all of whom follow nearly all the rules, most cyclists seem to treat the rules of the road as strictly optional.
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Really?
I was told something similar by a traffic cop once. (No, he didn't pull me over; I saw him on the bike path and stopped to chat.) I then asked him if he gave tickets for 5 mph over the speed limit. He said he didn't because then he would have to give every motorist he saw a ticket. At least cyclists will admit that most of us do break certain traffic laws.
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Old 12-23-10, 12:45 PM   #5
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Also, drop city street speed limit to 20 mph and enforce it strictly. Increase fines for breaking traffic laws. Make sure that the drivers finally understand that driving comes with responsibilities and that they're not the only ones the streets are built for.
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Old 12-23-10, 02:30 PM   #6
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the New York drivers around here are traveling at high speed, don't respect anyone's right of way or the rules of the road. If you see a car being operated in an incredibly aggressive yet stupid manner, it's a New Yorker. I'm sure they hate us too, but mostly for being too slow and making mistakes. We're not doing it on purpose.
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Old 12-23-10, 05:32 PM   #7
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These articles always make me think about a line from "Crocodile Dundee"

"That's incredible. Imagine seven million people all wanting to live together. Yeah, New York must be the friendliest place on earth."
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Old 12-23-10, 07:55 PM   #8
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Really?
Unfortunately, yes.

In October took a ride from Fort Lee (Jersey side of the George Washington Bridge) to Brooklyn and back - about 40 miles. I don't think I saw a single cyclist other than myself wait for an entire light.

There are some cycling hating columnists at the New York Post and I hate to admit that most cyclists I see give them plenty of ammo



This is pretty typical - when traffic is stopped cyclist go between lanes then get back in when things start moving. When they get to a light, if they can make it accross, they go - doesn't matter what color it is, only if they think they can get accross without getting hit.
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Old 12-23-10, 08:22 PM   #9
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Really?


Unfortunately yes. The picture shows a light for the bikepath that goes down almost the entire west side of Mahatten. This one is for cars and pedestrians, so when the cars start the cyclists have to stop. Some are just so pedestrians can cross. I sat at one of these and watched cyclist after cyclist keep plowing through the light while pedestrians were trying to cross.

Doesn't help our image.
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Old 12-23-10, 10:05 PM   #10
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bubbagrannygear, your telling me

Quote:
motorists, nearly all of whom follow nearly all the rules,
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Old 12-23-10, 10:19 PM   #11
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bubbagrannygear, your telling me
With respect to stopping at red lights and going in the right direction, I would say yes. Do all drivers strictly obey all traffic laws ? Of course not -but the percentage of NYC cyclist generally ignoring the traffic laws dwarfs the percentage of motorists doing the same.

Are motorists largely held accountable for breaking traffic laws ? yes. Cyclists ? not so much.
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Old 12-24-10, 05:05 AM   #12
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I was told something similar by a traffic cop once. (No, he didn't pull me over; I saw him on the bike path and stopped to chat.) I then asked him if he gave tickets for 5 mph over the speed limit. He said he didn't because then he would have to give every motorist he saw a ticket.
Really?
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Old 12-24-10, 05:18 AM   #13
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These articles always make me think about a line from "Crocodile Dundee"

"That's incredible. Imagine seven million people all wanting to live together. Yeah, New York must be the friendliest place on earth."
Exile, you made me squirt coffee out my nose.

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Old 12-24-10, 05:08 PM   #14
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With respect to stopping at red lights and going in the right direction, I would say yes. ...
I see, we are going to be very selective on how we do the evaluation.

So let us use speed limits for our selective evaluation and then make ridiculously broad statements about who the lawless and lawful are.

Or maybe we should just evaluate which group actually kills the most pedestrians.
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Old 12-26-10, 03:55 PM   #15
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I see, we are going to be very selective on how we do the evaluation.

So let us use speed limits for our selective evaluation and then make ridiculously broad statements about who the lawless and lawful are.

Or maybe we should just evaluate which group actually kills the most pedestrians.
Sorry, but I missed those ridiculously broad statements. Mr. Salmon made his statement in the context of bikes and cars in NYC. Stand on any corner in Manhatten, watch for an hour, and then tell me he is out of line.

If you want to broaden the discussion to include speed limits and driver behavior in general, then let's consider the following: Virtually all drivers understand that there is usually some speed over the posted limit that they can travel without penalty. The amount over permited is generally a function of the posted limit, design of road, density of residences, visibility, proximity to schools or other common sense circumstances. I concede that a large percentage of motorists travel these defacto speed limits rather than the posted. If you want to assert that a motorist traveling 44 in a 40 zone is violating the law and that-is-that, you are on solid ground. I understand. What I dont understand is how this really relates to the topic at hand.

NYC and other eastern cities have recently made great strides in increasing the bicycling infrastructure at a cost of dollars and space previously available for automobiles. Like all public investments, these improvements are ultimately subject to the political process. As motorist outnumber cyclists - I belive it is in the cyclists best interests to behave responsibly and demonstrate that they are legitimate vehicles. Anything short of this, gives opponents ammunition that will be used to reduce future improvements or even reverse what is in place. As you can see by the articles, the discssion is growing louder (a recent Philadelphia Magazine cover had the tease "honk if you hate cyclists" to advertise an article on the subject). As the volume increases and push comes to political shove, I think is is important for bikes to have the high ground.

You, I presume, on the other hand would point out that even though large numbers of NYC cyclists run red lights and travel the wrong way on streets, there are large numbers of cars out there that exceed the posted limit so therefore................so therefore what ?

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Old 12-26-10, 05:07 PM   #16
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I think the problem is that the vast majority of people that post on BF generally observe the law and would appreciate it if other cyclists would stop making bonehead moves that annoy motorists and endanger pedestrians. So it's frustrating for people to suggest that we do something about it. I would like anyone that thinks we should do something about it to tell us what they have done and give evidence that it was effective. Because I'm at a loss about what to do about bad cyclists. It seems to me that people who ride a lot eventually get schooled by people they respect. That isn't a plan for most cyclists who don't have anyone like that to talk to them about their bad behavior.

I'm not a big fan of cycling infrastructure. I do like it when governments make strides towards livable neighborhoods. Fundamentally this means a reduction in automotive traffic levels and speeds in residential neighborhoods. The combination is a worthy goal in my view. I think cycling infrastructure should be tied to livable cities. Justifying otherwise seems questionable to me.

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