Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Commuting Bicycle commuting is easier than you think, before you know it, you'll be hooked. Learn the tips, hints, equipment, safety requirements for safely riding your bike to work.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-05-11, 10:34 AM   #26
dedhed
SE Wis
 
dedhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400
Posts: 3,024
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrettscv View Post
Snowfall in Colorado can be 95% air.

Sure not like the 2" of dripping crap I shoveled this morning.

I've been caught in the snow on my 23's and as stated earlier, I can spin the tire in any gear. Most of the problem here at this time of year is the freeze\thaw. Melting during the day refreezes at night leaving dangerous ice everywhere on an early morning commute.
dedhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-11, 04:25 PM   #27
Snowman219
VICTORY IS MINE!
 
Snowman219's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ogden, UT
Bikes:
Posts: 239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
How does one move about with 0 traction against 0 friction? I will be getting a recumbent to ride during winter cause I don't want to fall down as much(not the best skater), the occasional challenge is nice. Those recumbents are so freakin' heavy, but I'll take the weight over the bruises any day : D.
Snowman219 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-11, 04:47 PM   #28
Rhodabike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Potashville
Bikes: Reynolds 531P road bike, Rocky Mountain Metropolis, Rocky Mountain Sherpa 10, Look 566
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I love my studded tires*. We had a thaw a few weeks back where the temperatures suddenly went up and the paths had a lot of wet ice on them from snow that melted and re-froze overnight. I was nervous as heck but stayed upright and in control. No doubt it's possible to ride that stuff with smooth tires, but I'm not going to try it.
(*Shwalbe Winter Marathons, if you're wondering.)
Rhodabike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-11, 09:10 PM   #29
daveizdum
.
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 199
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman219 View Post
How does one move about with 0 traction against 0 friction?
The coefficient of static friction for rubber on ice is approximately 0.25. The coefficient of kinetic friction for rubber on ice is approximately 0.15. The key to accelerating/decelerating/cornering is to control the wheels so that you don't enter the kinetic phase and suffer this 60% loss of friction.

(For comparison, the coefficient of kinetic friction for rubber on wet asphalt is 0.25. The coefficient of static friction for rubber on dry asphalt (which is what we'd all prefer) is around 1.)
daveizdum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-11, 11:11 AM   #30
Burton
Certified Bike Brat
 
Burton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Bikes:
Posts: 4,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This should be posted in the `Fantacy & Science Fiction` section

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveizdum View Post
I live in the Rocky mountains and have ridden through a foot of packed snow with ice underneath. This should be sufficiently wintery for anyone reading my post and contemplating whether I subjected myself to extreme or mild conditions. Making contact with the road is desirable but unnecessary.

I'm not trying to disprove anything or challenge Newtonian physics. ............
I live in Montreal Quebec and right accross the street is Lac Saint Louis where some of the popular winter activities are ice fishing. paraskiing and bicycling when conditions permit.

Its perfectly feisable to drive over hard packed snow or treat snow dump piles like a DJ course with off road tires.

But driving THROUGH snow? 12 inches of powder even with studs is about the limit with an ice base. 6 inches of packed snow over ice stops any rider with studs dead after about 10 feet if they actually break through to that depth.

Your notion of being able to drive THROUGH a foot of packed snow over ice with unstudded 700 x 23 tires is nothing short of a complete fantacy. You wouldn`t get 10 inches.

Addendum: This post actually makes about as much sense as someone posting: "Last winter I drove all winter with my summer tires instead of winter tires. I was able to easily drive in all the extreme winter conditions as usual, cut down my commute time and it actually improved my braking, acceleration and cornering abilities. Yeah - right!

Last edited by Burton; 03-06-11 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Addendum
Burton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-11, 11:26 AM   #31
electrik
Single-serving poster
 
electrik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Toronto, Canada
Bikes:
Posts: 5,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It's all good in the hood until you actually need to avoid something or slow down - then you magically transform into the human tripod who is about to suffer a groin injury!

Riding on top of 12" or packed snow, i can see... but unless you weigh 400lbs your tire isn't going to cut through packed snow a foot deep... at least real packed snow like the kind i'm thinking about. Unless your bottom bracket is 20" high... i don't see it happening!
electrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-11, 01:00 PM   #32
MNBikeguy
Senior Member
 
MNBikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Bikes: 05 Trek 5200, 07 Trek 520, 99 GT Karakoram, 08 Surly 1X1
Posts: 1,834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveizdum View Post
The coefficient of static friction for rubber on ice is approximately 0.25. The coefficient of kinetic friction for rubber on ice is approximately 0.15. The key to accelerating/decelerating/cornering is to control the wheels so that you don't enter the kinetic phase and suffer this 60% loss of friction.

(For comparison, the coefficient of kinetic friction for rubber on wet asphalt is 0.25. The coefficient of static friction for rubber on dry asphalt (which is what we'd all prefer) is around 1.)
(smacks forehead). Of course! Now that you put it that way....

Granted, you can ride any tire in a straight line. But seriously, have you ever found hidden glaze ice on a downhill turn without the benefit of studs? I went down so fast I didn't even have time to get a foot down.
MNBikeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-11, 12:04 PM   #33
modernjess
ride for a change
 
modernjess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Bikes: Surly Cross-check & Moonlander, Pivot Mach 429, Ted Wojcik Sof-Trac, Ridley Orion. Santa Cruz Stigmata
Posts: 2,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For sure it's possible, and You've got to be a strong rider with some real skills to pull it off, I'd say there is no doubt you are.

For me It's not worth the risk in the changing conditions I encounter daily here in the frozen north. I've gone down too many times in the past and I've concluded that I do NOT like hitting the ground. Suffice to say, I've done my risk/reward calculations; the studs stay on.
modernjess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-11, 03:20 PM   #34
tjspiel
Senior Member
 
tjspiel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Bikes:
Posts: 8,056
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
In another thread I talk about going on a group ride yesterday. The streets and trails are mostly clear but there are some icy spots. Some of them were long and pretty rough.

A few people in the group had no studs at all. A couple (including me) had two studded tires, but most had one studded tire in the front and a non-studded tire in the back. It should be noted that this group likes to go for long distances (as I found out).

So there is a 3rd choice: One studded and one not.

FWIW, there were two ice related crashes. One was caused by a rider with no studs. The other I'm not sure. At a couple of the worst spots people got off their bikes. I rode over everything.
tjspiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-11, 03:51 PM   #35
El Vinster
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've ridden this whole winter in lake effect Ohio, without studded tires. I ride to work everyday, and for fun, and I have even rode on top of a frozen pond a couple of times. Very fun!

I've slipped and fell hard once this winter, but that was my own stupidity. Most icy days I would just take it really cautiously, and when my bike started to slip I felt it and reacted accordingly and was able to correct. I've developed skills for riding in this winter mess that I will be a much better biker in any weather. However, next winter I will have studded tires, because my alertness and reactions vary everyday, I cant control how other people drive, and I would hate to have to brake real hard to avoid a car only to slide up right under him.

+1 on threaded tires!

On the subject of thinner tires, if for some reason I could not afford studded this next winter, I will go with wheels as thin as I could go. I've seen pictures and videos of bikes with awesomely wide tires for winter, so I get the idea that fat is better in snow. In my experience I much prefer to cut through the snow. I think thin tires will slip on ice just as well as fat tires, so I say go with whatever you like best.

+1 on thin tires!

So basically this whole winter I wished that I had ultra-thin, studded tires for my winter commute. And a thermal mug.
El Vinster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-11, 02:18 PM   #36
PaulRivers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Bikes:
Posts: 5,539
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
First of all, the title of this thread is "700x23 on snow and ice? Piece of cake." and that's pure B.S. From the OP's own writing in this thread it's clear that that type of riding takes a lot of paying attention, concentration, and developing somewhat advanced bike handling skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveizdum View Post
As stated in the original post, I do ride on hard packed snow and ice. Some seem unwilling to accept this. It's actually pretty easy with practice. I think I could probably ride circles around an ice rink after the 3 months of practice I've just gotten.
I live in Minnesota, and - I honestly have to say I really do find what you're saying about an ice skating rink nearly impossible to believe.

I'm sorry. I'm not any sort of huge safety advocate - I ride in the summer without a helmet whenever I feel like it, I use lights at night but don't wear head to toe reflective gear or anything, I bike at all times of the day or night. But staying upright on "sheer" ice with 23c tires? I...just don't think I can believe that. I've tried to ride on "sheer" ice on a Pugsley and could not keep the bike upright once the front tire got fully in contact with the sheer lake ice. I don't know if more experience and bike handling skills might have allowed me to do it, but in my opinion it would be completely impossible on 23c slicks.

We have plenty of people here who ride without studs, but I do not believe any of them could ride 23c's on a smooth, newly resurfaced ice skating rink with them. I just don't think it's possible. If someone has video of someone doing this, including a closeup of the condition of the ice, I would certainly be interested in being proven wrong. But I'm not sure I even believe it's possible to actually ride 23c's on "sheer" ice without falling over or putting your feet down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveizdum View Post
I live in the Rocky mountains and have ridden through a foot of packed snow with ice underneath. This should be sufficiently wintery for anyone reading my post and contemplating whether I subjected myself to extreme or mild conditions.
1 - your snow must be different than ours in Minnesota, or you're leaving important information out, as it's pretty much impossible to ride through 1 foot of snow here with any sort of tire. Pugley riders were finding themselves with the need to walk their bikes at certain times when we got 6 inches of snow or more here. I have heard it depends on the type of the snow. I've also found that 6 inches of snow on the sidewalk can be nearly impossible, while 6 inches of snow on the road that got compressed by cars was doable with a 2" tire (or a 35c actually as well).

Even Puglsey riders were finding it impossible to ride the greenway here before it was plowed when we got 16" or so of snow the last time.

2 - as other people have said, riding over packed snow with ice underneath is quite a bit easier than riding sheer ice without studs as the tire has some grip on the snow. In fact, any sort of the kind of ice that has some snow gripping it is monumentally easier than real, "sheer" ice. Just a little bit of grip on the ice is often enough.

When someone says that they rode all through winter and they say "zero mishaps", I also wonder what that means exactly. I've noticed that when people use colorful adjectives they often mean something different than they're implying - I suspect you might mean that you fell over once or twice but since you didn't brake anything you don't consider it a "mishap". Or, maybe you just got lucky.

I can only relate my own experience, but I live in Minnesota - the land of snow and ice in the winter. It's not like I'm talking just from theory, or just from my own experience - I've known many people here who bike as transportation who have used no studs, just the front tire studded, and studs on both tires. And over and over and over again, the best I hear from the "no studs" riders are that they have a least one fall each winter. It's not necessarily serious - often (though not always) they fall but don't break anything. But all of those guys always talk about bike handling, steering around icy spots, etc etc - none of them ever seriously claim that it's "easy".

I take issue not with the idea that it's possible to ride without studded tires in the winter, but with the idea that it's a "piece of cake". I think that's total b.s. I live and bike with people who do that kind of stuff. And the same themes always come up again and again -
1. They're nearly always young guys - the kind of guys you'd imagine skateboarding or going off huge mountain bike jumps
2. They always fall down at least once a year. Sometimes they say it was no big deal, but it always happens at least once.
3. There's always a certain number of them that have broken something serious.

Now when we talk about risk, I mean, doesn't this same set of points apply to people who road race and do any sort of serious mountain biking? Yes, it certainly does.

But, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it's one thing to say that with practice, skill, and always paying attention that it's possible to bike regularly in snow and ice without studs. I'm not saying that it's not. I know people who do it, and they accept a higher level of risk, but everything has risk including the more "serious" forms of biking. But to say it's a "piece of cake" is nothing but ridiculous. It's certainly not easy.
PaulRivers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-11, 05:55 PM   #37
uvbears
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 94
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i ran 700x25, conti touring plus. they def have some grip but are by no means nobby. they worked great this winter and we had a lot of snow in chciago!
uvbears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-11, 11:17 PM   #38
Chris516
24-Speed Machine
 
Chris516's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Wash. Grove, MD
Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez 24-Speed Road Bike
Posts: 6,054
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Regardless of tires and the bikes capability, I won't ride my racing bike in inclement weather. Because I would have clean all the salt and/or dirt off afterwards.

My bike is a 24-Speed road racer with a 700x23 road tire in front, and a 700x25 road tire in back. It is not meant to be ridden in bad weather.

Last edited by Chris516; 03-10-11 at 11:20 PM.
Chris516 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:07 PM.