Sixty Fiver

Slim... you seem horribly confused.

Many urban bicycles now have front suspensions and are not mountain bikes while many mountain bikes have no suspension save for the riders arms and legs... I rode rigid off rode for years.

Although it is rare, some folks build up their touring bikes with front suspensions for extreme touring and expedition riding.

It is easier for a mountain bike or touring bike to serve as an urban assault vehicle while a hybrid with a front suspension is generally not designed to handle rigorous off road riding but rather, bumpier streets and improved trails and paths.

stringbreaker

Well the truck is what it is the bike however is a dream machine for sure. 77 Schwinn Volare that had been stripped of its finish. I built this bike back up from the frame with almost all the period correct dura ace items. Couldn't find the right front gearset so I went with as close as I could get. Its Reynolds 531 tubing. I love it but its never seen rain and won't as long as I have it. I've considered powdercoating the frame with a really close color to the original but since its kinda bastardized with the non original fork I think I'll leave it chrome.

SlimRider

So, your son asks you to buy him a MTB.

Do you have any idea what he wants?

You could ask him about front suspension, rear suspension, fork travel, etc..

Wouldn't that give you a better idea about what he needs?

-Or are you going to confuse the issue and tell him that some guy rode a unicycle to the top of Mt. Everest, therefore a unicycle is technically a MTB too?

We need guidelines and definitions in order to draw relevant images with which we can intelligently discuss any group of objects, this includes bicycles!

The more definitions that we understand, the more intellectually versatile we become. We are an evolving species and what we are currently experiencing is evolutionary flux, transition, or change.

When the dust settles, we'll all have a much more lucid idea of the forms and related functions of various cycles.

SlimRider

You've done a beautiful job on her!

You should be very proud...

Respectfully,
Slim

91MF

they are all just bicycles. saying 'city bike' means nothing to me. there is a beautiful but mildly loved vintage pinarello i see locked up outside the coffee shop near my brothers condo all the time. its appearance coincides with the same mid 20s 'hipster' baristas apparent schedule. so guy lives in the city and commutes on said bike to work. there, city bike. doesnt fit previous description.

meh.

Oil_LOL

I honestly don't know what your point is. Do you want us all to put every bike into some strict box?What Sixty Fiver is saying is that any bike can be whatever you want it to be. It doesn't have to follow what the manufacturer says it's for. I think people here like bicycles because they can change them up, buy some parts and dig around their garage, put them on, and their bike has a whole new use. It may not be the most efficent in what you're trying to accomplish, or it may be more efficent then what's supposed te be good at that action. I find that remarkable. That is how advancements are made in cycling, by experimenting with different setups, trying new things. Using cruiser bikes as trail bikes eventually developed into the modern mountain bike we have today. if the Marin Valley people sat around and said "oh no, that's not for off road use, it's a cruiser bike" then fork travel wouldn't even be around. It's like you think we should all just use the default configuration, just to be safe or something. Doing new things with stuff we already had is "intellectually versatile." That's what humans do best.

SlimRider

Using words and names to express a particular style of any object is just a part of human language and communication. Nobody is saying that you can't think out of the box and be creative. However, I am saying that you should be able to state clearly what style you began with, and where you're trying to go with it. Maybe, it will still be within the same category, maybe it won't. Whatever, it will morph into, it will have an altered look or expression. That expression, will impress you one way or another. It will influence your thought process. You may like it or you may hate it. You may even feel indifferent about it. Whatever the case may be, it would have provoked you to have some kind of feeling. That's what art, design, style, and change is all about. How we as humans interact with materials that influence thought, feelings, and behavior. It also can affect how we as human beings interact with one another when we communicate. That is truly a beautiful thing...Art... Creation ...Transformation...Change...Style...Difference....Diversity....Transition.

How beautiful it is when we are better able to express in words the ideas that we execute when we perform artistic transition in the form of design. Designs that are more functional, suit our dynamic needs for living. Designs that are more aesthetic appease our spiritual souls and gives us better reason for a greater hope for humanity and appreciation for nature.

We are all artists in our own way. When we put our creative talents to use, we always end up infusing a portion of ourselves into our creation. We do this on art canvasses, we do it with buildings, we do it with cars, and we do it with bicycles.

I love seeing the changes that individual cyclists make on their bikes. I also love it when we're able to express that which we've done in words. When we say, " road bike", most of us know very well what we're talking about. When we say, " mountain bike", most of us know very well what we're talking about.

However, when we say commuter bike, city bike, or hybrid, suddenly we become perplexed and we want to blur definitions and concepts. Well, that may very well become a good thing as we continue to evolve a change in cycling. Nonetheless, right now as it stands, a commuter, a city bike, and a comfort bike, are all subcategories of a hybrid. A hybrid is a bike that is designed to be something between a road bike and a mountain bike.

Well a comfort bike, a city bike, and a commuter bike, are all bikes that fit somewhere in the hybrid genre of bicycles. Now, as we continue to evolve, we begin to form more clear ideas as to which types of bikes will perform which functions or not and just exactly what better names to call them.

All I can promise you, is that they all will physically change, and they all will experience future name changes.

We won't be just calling them BIKES!

Love,

Slim

PS.

Actually, I think it's forums like this that provides the impetus for change in concepts and names for bicycles. Afterall, we are on the INTERNET!

jpatkinson

It seems to me that the "commuter bicycle" could include "city bikes," mountain bikes, traditional road or racing bikes, fixies/track bikes, or ... maybe even a time trial bike, if you were so inclined. I have noticed that the commutes described here are varied, from something like mine (two whole miles within the SF city limits, with some decent hills) to others that include trails, loooong distances, or their owners assert they will never be used in the rain. Context is EVERYthing, here. I would never try to commute on a fixie, for obvious reasons (in addition to having weak legs and a bad L knee). Furthermore, I hated commuting on my traditional road bike: leaning forward on the bars, skinny tires, no fenders, battery-dependent lights, and no place to hang a bag [I had no other choice for 4w while awaiting my commute-specific build]. Again, I really think it is about the context of the commute -- THAT is what drives the choice of bicycle (plus financial limitations, I imagine, in some cases).

tjspiel

Ironically there was a thread in this forum a couple of years ago discussing bikes with similar features except they were being called "Country Bikes".

For whatever reason, I don't have too much trouble with categories likes "Downhill, Cross Country, Road Bike, Touring Bike, Cruiser, Cross Bike, and Utility Bike". For me, those terms describe fairly specific type of bikes though I'd agree that "Road Bike" is pretty generic.

I don't really like "City Bike", "Commuter Bike", or even "Hybrid". When I ride in the city, I see all of the above types of bikes, -especially while I'm commuting. It makes very little sense to me to have categories called "commuter" or "city bike". Part of what makes a city a city is that fact that it's not a homogeneous place. It's a collection of areas with very distinct flavors and sub-cultures. Likewise, there's not any single type of bike that people primarily use to ride in the city.

If I had to pick a type of bike to associate with the city, I'd pick a 70's or 80's road bike that's been converted to an SS or fixed gear or maybe tall bikes.

SlimRider

That's exactly right, JP!

All of those bikes mentioned are commuter bikes, because within the most strict definition of commute, they all fit. However, just because they serve the utilitarian purpose of commuting, that does NOT make them all, "City Bikes". According to Wikipedia, the comfort bike, the city bike, and the commuter bike, are all some derivation of a hybrid bike.

However, right here within this forum (amongst the experts), we've pretty much determined that a commuter bike is any bike that you commute on. That is, any bike that delivers you to and from work or school. Throw in the extra trek to the grocery or department store, or use them for delivery purposes, and they become utility bikes too.

All of these bikes are in the process of evolution. None of them have their final names. They will all change or transition into something else awesome. At that time, when the change is most prominent, we will seek a new name and a new cycle-child will be born. There will still be disagreement as to what to call them, just like there is disagreement as to what to call most children. However, at the end of the day, it will still be called some kind of bike. It won't just be called a bike! It will be called some specific type of bike.

PS.

Something tells me that within the next ten years, the name hybrid will have come and gone...

Schwinnrider

I think Rivendell and Kogswell were trying to define their 650B wheeled bikes as "country bikes". Didn't stick. Now they're lumped in with "randonneuring" bikes. Fatter tires, room for fenders, rack mounts, panniers and a handlebar bag. Gee, sounds like a "touring" bike to me. But it could also be a "commuter" bike. But if I ride it in the city, doesn't that make it a "city" bike? Heck, if I ride it in the Netherlands is it a "Dutch" bike?

It's all just marketing.

DX-MAN

This. x1000.

Sixty Fiver

Like I said... there is the description used by builders and marketers to describe certain types of bicycles and then there is the description that coincides with the way a bike is used.

If you asked me to build you a city bike I would picture something different than if you asked me to build you a touring bike or a rando bike.

SlimRider

Fair Enough, Friend!

DylanG

I used to live in Amsterdam and I loved the Dutch bikes. They were so well optimized for the lifestyle. Here is a great page that captures how bikes are used in Holland. (Not my page but the pictures were taken a few blocks from where I lived.)

https://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/


Rather than summarize the characteristics, I'll summarize the primary goal of the bike:

Low fuss

I love the author's comments in the page linked above, but what he misses is that the value of the bike is usually not monetary. The point is you absolutely depend on it for your life to function. You need it to be where you left it and for it to be in ride-able condition. That's why it's so optimized for low maintenance and convenience - internal gears, enclosed chain, drum brakes, dynamo lights, skirt guard, rack/basket, wheel lock. Your bike is not a hobby, it's a tool. The less you think about the tool, the better.

What I think of as a city bike is something that does everything you need with minimal fuss. You can wear any clothes you want, you don't have to maintain it much, it carries stuff, everything is bolted on (no planning ahead of time which accessories you might need), it works in bad weather, it's not so special looking that it attracts thieves.

The last one is tough in the US because these sorts of bikes are special looking. Here is a picture I took of the "parking lot" for the main train station in Amsterdam.

SlimRider

From DylanG:

I used to live in Amsterdam and I loved the Dutch bikes. They were so well optimized for the lifestyle. Here is a great page that captures how bikes are used in Holland. (Not my page but the pictures were taken a few blocks from where I lived.)

https://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/

Finally!

Somebody who REALLY gets what I'm talking about!

This contribution will forever be appreciated....

Thanks Dylan!!!

- Slim

SlimRider

I think Popple.808 feels my pain!

Rob_E

I think of a "city bike" a collection of general qualities of a bike, which sounds like what the OP is saying. It doesn't mean it has to be ridden in the city, nor does it mean that any bike ridden in a city is a city bike. It's just a kind of bike, and the description is useful because if you say that something is a "city bike," you imply certain general characteristics. But they are general ideas, not hard and fast rules, so there's a lot of variability in the categories. Likewise my "touring bike" is a touring bike. It doesn't matter that spends most of it's time taking me to and from work. It doesn't matter that I ride it in a city or that it's been known to go off road. If I decided to call it a mountain bike simply because it's been on some trails, it would be very misleading as to the qualities of the bike. And the fact that I ride it in a city would not make it a city bike, but the fact that the handlebars are up relatively high, that it has fenders, that the bars are swept back, rather than drops, might make someone want to put it in the city bike category, and I'm okay with that because they are fairly general categories.

But I agree with the OP that a commuter bike is not a kind of bike but rather a bike defined by it's function. You can call my bike a touring bike or a city bike depending on your criteria, but what makes it a commuting bike is simply the fact that I use it to get home every day.

I think hybrid is just like touring or city or mountain bike: a category of bike that meets some general criteria of features. Some of those do seem like they might overlap with a city bike. In fact, I originally considered a hybrid to be a hybrid between road and mountain bikes, but on further consideration, see very little road bike in a hybrid. It seems more like a hybrid of mountain bikes and city bikes.

I think a certain amount of confusion comes in when people are targeted by bicycle marketing or by bicycle advocacy as being potential commuters. Who are the easiest to try to convince to bicycle commute? People who have fairly short commutes with good roads available to them. In other words, people who could easily do their commute on a city bike. From a language perspective, I think we, especially on this forum, know that any bike can be a commuter, but I can see where some people would think of a commuter as a city bike because it's often marketed as a good kind of bike for a commuter.

SlimRider

Yes!!!!.....THIS^^^^!

+1,000,000

- Slim

Steely Dan

that's great if that works for you, but for some of us, bikes are not merely a tool or hobby, they're a full-blown all-consuming obsession. i like riding bikes. i like working on bikes. i like thinking about bikes. i like looking at bikes. i like talking about bikes. i like reading about bikes. i like dreaming about bikes. i just really like bikes.

i spend FAR more time thinking about bikes than i ever really should........... and i wouldn't have it any other way.

SlimRider

Me too, Dan!....I think we need to see Dr. Phil!

jpatkinson

The more I read this thread, the more I think bicycles are like cars in terms of how we define them: you can commute to work in a Lotus Elise, a Toyota Prius, a BMW 7 series, or a Ford F-150. They are all "commuters," and each will be best for their respective commute, if their driver chose wisely. But, if you walk into a dealer, you don't say, "sell me a commuting car/truck!" You tell them what you want (if you are like me), or you tell them what you NEED to do with the vehicle (my mom would have done this), and hope they find the best one for your intended purpose!

Now, I live in a city. I commute in a city. Therefore, I have a "city bike" for my commute, since it really makes the MOST sense for this context. If I lived in the country and were cycling 20 miles to work on rolling hills, I wouldn't have a build nearly as heavy as the one I have, nor would I have the upright handlebars, and I would probably have a more relaxed geometry. Maybe.

SlimRider

Hey there JP!

Along those same lines, when you walk into a dealership that sells Toyotas. You don't say, I want a commuter car ( a car to commute in), you say, "I want to buy a hybrid", or "I want to buy a luxury car", or "I want to buy a mid-sized sedan", or "I want to buy a utility vehicle", or "I want to buy a compact car". All of these cars are cars. However, in order to communicate intelligently one is required to be more specific.

Since all of these cars can be used to commute to either work or school, they all classify as commuters. However, they are NOT all classified as hybrids, compacts, or luxury cars, because each is different within its own right. Each has a different design that distiguishes it from all the others.

The Toyota Avalon owner has a desire, that a Corolla can't satisfy. The Toyota Camry can't be used like the Highlander. A Prius owner would not appreciate having a Solara, since it won't satisfy his needs.

We can't just say that all of these cars are Camrys, because they're clearly not all Camrys. However, by definition, they are all commuters, if they're used to transport one to work or school.

City bikes have a history. They inherited a certain design from Europe along with that history. The old English City Bike, the old Dutch Bike, and the old German Bike, all share a common history and a common design. That design usually includes fenders, a rack, a chainguard, North Road handlebars, hubbed gearing ( low gearing), headlights, and reflectors. They sometimes possessed a front suspension, but that was rare.

We have inherited the City Bike from Europe. Sure, some things have changed over the years, but the basic concept remains the same. Low gearing (not a guizillion speeds), fenders, a rack, slightly raised handlebars,
reflectors and sometimes, a headlight.

These City Bikes look a lot different from the average road bike or the average mountain bike. They also look a lot different from a recumbent bike. However, all of these bikes are commuters. They're just not all "City Bikes"!

We don't just say..."A Bike is a Bike" .....No more than we would say..."A Car is a Car"

Respectfully,
- Slim

jpatkinson

Exactly.

Farmer Dave

City Bike.