Commuting with Pedal Assist
#26
ride for a change
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About a month ago on a cold windy commute home I was totally dropped by a person who blew by me riding casually, pushing a huge gear in an upright riding style on a girls frame bike that looked like it weighed 100 pounds. At first I was thinking, "what the hell is wrong with me today... Am I really going that slow...my god!?!" Then I saw the giant front hub that has the motor in it. I instantly felt relieved for me and for them.
At this point in my life electric assist is not for me. I'm a simplicity guy that loves to pedal. But I have nothing against it, and I honestly believe it is going to be a huge trend for many of the reasons already stated above and that it is just getting started.
At this point in my life electric assist is not for me. I'm a simplicity guy that loves to pedal. But I have nothing against it, and I honestly believe it is going to be a huge trend for many of the reasons already stated above and that it is just getting started.
#27
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My own personal experience with e-bikes consisted of a test ride at my LBS. Put a big grin on my face. But I realized that it would not work for me. The local transit service prohibits powered bikes on their racks- and I was a bike/bus commuter at the time. I could've used the bike for the entire distance going in, but it was doubtful if it would've recharged enough for the return home. But the biggest factor against was the cost. Not a single one in Trek's current line up is listed under $2200, and a quick Google search reveals a BionX conversion kit will easily run over a grand- and I saw that one battery was $838.
So I applaud your enthusiasm, but realize that you're pursuing a niche within a niche market. But it just occurred to me that you might be able to tap into the commercial/utility market and possibly explore physical rehab applications as well.
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I'm seeing more "assisted" bikes. My gas assisted bike is a Honda VTX 1300 V-twin cruiser. Basically, it's my rain bike and "gotta go somewhere after work bike".
#29
always rides with luggage
I greatly dislike chainsaws on the road.
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--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
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#30
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Unless you're using one as an anti-zombie PDW
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#31
always rides with luggage
Hey now, don't you be bringing that Foo stuff in here. This is a serious thread.
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2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
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--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
Non-Bike hardware: MX Linux / BunsenLabs Linux / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 7
#32
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Back on topic- I personally wouldn't mind an e-bike, especially now that the battery packs are designed to lay on the rack instead of off of it. But the cost is still prohibitive. Until the costs come down, it's doubtful it will readily be adopted by the masses.
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#33
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Very interesting, and it's why I am excited about this project because we (living in the US) or going to have to wake up and realize that cars aren't always going to be feasible. I think your comments regarding headwinds is a crucial one, because I'm willing to bet that even true roadies would appreciate a little umph when their on their way to work, or am I wrong? Thanks.
I used to ride my old 29er in SS but now ride 1x9 so I see your point. And I like that you brought up the zig-zag technique and how its not usable during traffic so how does this scenario change your thoughts on a peddle assist system? I appreciate your chiming in.
I think you and most others on this board could get in real trouble with a pedal assist because you already have the muscles to be fast, but would that recumbent system be as sketchy for those that just want a car alternative?
Thank you all for being involved!
I used to ride my old 29er in SS but now ride 1x9 so I see your point. And I like that you brought up the zig-zag technique and how its not usable during traffic so how does this scenario change your thoughts on a peddle assist system? I appreciate your chiming in.
I think you and most others on this board could get in real trouble with a pedal assist because you already have the muscles to be fast, but would that recumbent system be as sketchy for those that just want a car alternative?
Thank you all for being involved!
In living rural the only time I resort to switchbacks is when I'm riding my fg @ 85 GI. 48x15 gearset.
There are all kinds of people w/all kinds of fitness levels commuting by bike. It's simply my feeling than any assist should be limited to those who really need it. I.e. handicapped, asthma sufferers, developmentally disabled, obese and looking to lose weight, etc. They need it. Any able-bodied person has got a pretty good idea of their physical limits and can adjust they're gearing/load capacity accordingly. Any kind of assist in simply unnecessary to anyone w/a solid sense of their own capabilities.
#34
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You can tell that all the dickish comments about e-bike riders being fat or lazy or not getting exercise come from self-righteous people who have never tried one. I have an e-bike & it has not made me lazier or fatter or caused me to get less exercise. It has been exactly the opposite. I have an e-bike and several regular bikes. I use the e-bike when I feel like it & the other bikes when I feel like using them. The e-bike is great for those rides that are just a bit too long for using my normal bike, when I would normally take the car, or if I have to get home from work in a hurry to be somewhere else. It allows me to use the bike MORE & the car LESS, allowing me to squeeze extra exercise into my day. BTW, my e-bike is a pedal-assist model (Trek FX+) which you have to pedal to get anything out of (no free ride) and the assist tops out at 20 MPH, so anything over that you are doing it all on your own.
From reading this thread, it sounds like the main thing keeping people from using one is ignorance.
From reading this thread, it sounds like the main thing keeping people from using one is ignorance.
#35
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You can tell that all the dickish comments about e-bike riders being fat or lazy or not getting exercise come from self-righteous people who have never tried one. I have an e-bike & it has not made me lazier or fatter or caused me to get less exercise. It has been exactly the opposite. I have an e-bike and several regular bikes. I use the e-bike when I feel like it & the other bikes when I feel like using them. The e-bike is great for those rides that are just a bit too long for using my normal bike, when I would normally take the car, or if I have to get home from work in a hurry to be somewhere else. It allows me to use the bike MORE & the car LESS, allowing me to squeeze extra exercise into my day. BTW, my e-bike is a pedal-assist model (Trek FX+) which you have to pedal to get anything out of (no free ride) and the assist tops out at 20 MPH, so anything over that you are doing it all on your own.
From reading this thread, it sounds like the main thing keeping people from using one is ignorance.
From reading this thread, it sounds like the main thing keeping people from using one is ignorance.
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#36
Pug lover! Dogs and bikes
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SJSU huh? That's my neck of the woods.
Pedal assist is awesome. Why is it awesome? Allows those who aren't healthy enough to still bike. When I say healthy I mean injuries, disabilities, pain or discomfort from specific conditions. For those who are more than capable, but don't want to be over exert themselves pedal assist makes sense too. It definitely has it's place in the world.
My personal reason, and I'm sure others can echo it, is that the beauty of a bicycle is the fact that it doesn't run on any fuel other than your own personal capacity. It might be a romantic idea, but the fact you determine how hard the bike works is a wonderful thought.
Furthermore, a lot of people use the bicycle not just a means of transportation, entertainment, hobby, but also as a fitness tool. You're killing two birds (if not more) with one stone if fitness is on your agenda. Throw in pedal assist and you're detracting from the fitness aspect of it all.
Cost (of installation and fuel), maintenance, weight, are all factors against pedal assist.
Pedal assist is awesome. Why is it awesome? Allows those who aren't healthy enough to still bike. When I say healthy I mean injuries, disabilities, pain or discomfort from specific conditions. For those who are more than capable, but don't want to be over exert themselves pedal assist makes sense too. It definitely has it's place in the world.
My personal reason, and I'm sure others can echo it, is that the beauty of a bicycle is the fact that it doesn't run on any fuel other than your own personal capacity. It might be a romantic idea, but the fact you determine how hard the bike works is a wonderful thought.
The bicycle is a curious vehicle. Its passenger is its engine. ~John Howard
Cost (of installation and fuel), maintenance, weight, are all factors against pedal assist.
#37
Banned
I greatly dislike chainsaws on the road
in from the coast.
with every 4th Truck having a chainsaw in the back,
it was amazing how fast the blockages,
got turned into stacked and split firewood .
#38
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For others it is about getting to work, getting groceries, and living their lives with minimal automobile use. That desire to minimize automobile use may be motivated by reasons of fitness, environmental concerns, monetary concerns, or something else entirely; however, it comes down to a desire to drive less. The trouble is that this group is not motivated by the need to be awesome.
For the second crowd, the phrase that is so popular here, HTFU, is not an inducement or motivation, it is reminder that riding is an inferior (in economic terms -- something you do more of when you have less money) means of going about their lives.
The arrogant, dickishness, which is embodied in saying "HTFU" pushes a tremendous number of people away from riding and into the socially acceptable alternative.
Remember, the alternative to the e-bike is not being awesome on an awesome pushbike. The alternative is the more socially acceptable alternative of driving.
#39
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I would like an electric assist if it doesn't change the way my bicycle functions without using the electricity. In other words, if I don't want a strictly electric assist bicycle. I want to be able to remove the battery and lighten the bicycle up and ride like normal. If I want some "juice" then slap the battery on and go. I also don't want the pedal assist.......I just want a thumb throttle for when I need it. I know there are some legal issues with this but I don't want the bicycle to be limited by a technicality due to a law.
#40
always rides with luggage
(and yes, they do make electric chainsaws)
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2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
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--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
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#41
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I was in the LBS when the owner got an phone inquiry about eBikes. The caller lost his DL (too many DUI's), was not very fit, and only had one leg.
He could get a 50hp moped without needing a DL, but they cannot go fast enough to ride on freeways or be safe on some of the high-speed arterials. Mopeds aren't allowed on MUPs. That would be a serious impediment in some areas.
I believe the eBikes are allowed on the bike paths/MUPs.
If I were to lose my DL, I would be interested in an eBike.
If car driving gets more expensive or if gas shortages become a problem, I would be very interested in an eBike or small motor scooter. That assumes many other people would be making the same choice.
He could get a 50hp moped without needing a DL, but they cannot go fast enough to ride on freeways or be safe on some of the high-speed arterials. Mopeds aren't allowed on MUPs. That would be a serious impediment in some areas.
I believe the eBikes are allowed on the bike paths/MUPs.
If I were to lose my DL, I would be interested in an eBike.
If car driving gets more expensive or if gas shortages become a problem, I would be very interested in an eBike or small motor scooter. That assumes many other people would be making the same choice.
Last edited by nkfrench; 03-08-12 at 05:58 PM.
#43
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my two cents:
First drop the gas powed thought entirely. They are noisy, smelly (my guess is that they put out way more pollution than modern car) and generally irritating. Many of them are put on cheap bikes and don't have any where near enought braking power to deal with the motor
Define your goal, which will drive the design and requirements. Is the goal to have a fully functional bike that can have some assist when needed (ie hills, wind, exta load) or to have what is essentially an electric moped that doesn't really require pedaling? (Many eBikes out there are electric mopeds, not practical for pedaling and only have pedals to qualiify as bikes for legal reasons.) The market for both would be different
Assuming you are going for assist only, then you have to make sure the overall package is light, easy to integrate with a manufacturing process (new bikes) or retrofit to existing bikes. There will have to be a critical balance between range and weight. The control will also be critical.....does it cut in automatically, what triggers the cut in, does it cutout at a top end speed?
I personally would not be interested in one today, but I could see that in 20-30 years a small light pedal assist might be of value if it help keep me riding on a bike. or at least flatten the hills.
First drop the gas powed thought entirely. They are noisy, smelly (my guess is that they put out way more pollution than modern car) and generally irritating. Many of them are put on cheap bikes and don't have any where near enought braking power to deal with the motor
Define your goal, which will drive the design and requirements. Is the goal to have a fully functional bike that can have some assist when needed (ie hills, wind, exta load) or to have what is essentially an electric moped that doesn't really require pedaling? (Many eBikes out there are electric mopeds, not practical for pedaling and only have pedals to qualiify as bikes for legal reasons.) The market for both would be different
Assuming you are going for assist only, then you have to make sure the overall package is light, easy to integrate with a manufacturing process (new bikes) or retrofit to existing bikes. There will have to be a critical balance between range and weight. The control will also be critical.....does it cut in automatically, what triggers the cut in, does it cutout at a top end speed?
I personally would not be interested in one today, but I could see that in 20-30 years a small light pedal assist might be of value if it help keep me riding on a bike. or at least flatten the hills.
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#44
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There were plenty of well-reasoned comments as well, which is why I didn't say 'All of the comments...'.
#45
Senior Member
I think its the hassle factor. You have to plug the damn thing in every night. Every blasted night. With a real bike, you just hop on aqnd go. I started cycling to work because I was too lazy to put up with driving.
Paul
Paul
#46
always rides with luggage
You seem interesting. Tell us more about being too lazy to drive.
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Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
Non-Bike hardware: MX Linux / BunsenLabs Linux / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 7
--Ben
2006 Trek SU100, 2009 Motobecane Fantom CX, 2011 Motobecane Fantom Cross Uno, and a Bakfiets
Previously: 2000 Trek 4500 (2000-2003), 2003 Novara Randonee (2003-2006), 2003 Giant Rainier (2003-2008), 2005 Xootr Swift (2005-2007), 2007 Nashbar 1x9 (2007-2011), 2011 Windsor Shetland (2011-2014), 2008 Citizen Folder (2015)
Non-Bike hardware: MX Linux / BunsenLabs Linux / Raspbian / Mac OS 10.6 / Android 7
#47
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Thanks for that. I actually have yet to consider the application of pedal assist for a cargo bike scenario, and you bring up great points regarding load. How would you feel about this pedal assisted cargo bike replacing your main vehicle? In a sense it does become your commuter vehicle? Thanks again.
I got rid of my Ford F-150 about a year ago.
#48
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As a matter of fact I did read the comments & they are super easy to understand. Perhaps you should give it another go before questioning my comprehension. Comments like "I really want one of those because then I could get really fat" and your prior comment "I don't use one because I don't really feel the need for it and I would get lazy and fat-ter" seem pretty self-explanatory.
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Bryan D, I'm sometimes tempted to rig one up but one thing stops me. For any reasonably affordable setup the performance isn't much better than I can do without it. If it can't significantly outperform me, there's much less point to it.
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What part of *I* would get lazy and fatter don't you understand? How is this a comment on e-bike riders? I know some who get more exercise from e-bikes because otherwise, they would ride less or not at all. It's not my case. I've thought getting an e-bike for those harder days but I weighed the pros and cons and it isn't worth it, at least for now. I know myself enough that getting lazy is one of the cons.