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Old 03-24-12, 08:45 PM   #101
Digital_Cowboy
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Originally Posted by JeremyZ View Post
This won't apply to most of you, but for those of you who like to stop for lights, if you have a steel kickstand, put that down over the sensor and that works sometimes. I haven't tried it yet with my Schwinn, but it worked with steel motorcycle kickstands.
I've heard that the steel plate/cleat associated with clipless pedals can also be used to trip a reluctant sensor.
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Old 03-24-12, 08:50 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by lostarchitect View Post
Why do you people bother fighting about red lights and stop signs? Guys, you are not going to change anybody's mind. If you run them, fine, if you think it's stupid, fine. Just give up trying to change the other guy.
Because of how many nice bikes I've nearly ground up to pulp because they do stupid **** and I don't see them until I'm skidding on my brakes. There was even one guy on a fixed gear running red lights... traffic going north-south had left turn arrow, lots of turning traffic at speed, no jams. This guy coming east, runs through the traffic, swerves, slips through moving cars, swerves again through more moving cars, makes his left turn.

The cyclists can be Darwin award winners but bikes take human labor to manufacture and destroying them is bad for the economy. We could give those bikes to someone intelligent who has the hard luck to not be able to afford car/gas/insurance.
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Old 03-24-12, 08:59 PM   #103
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I always have a problem with this argument.... Because it ignores other consequences. Yes if a cyclist makes a wrong decision by running a red they have more exposure than a person in a car does, but it does not end there. You run a red light and make a judgement error. Now a driver either hits you and suffers psychological issues for something is not their fault or trys to avoid you and hits another car or object.

There is no more justification for the self-centered argument " I am inconvenienced by the red light, and can make my own judgement if it is safe and break the law" for a bicyclist than there is for a motorcyclist or auto driver.
+1,000

Or as others here have said when people have either suggested new laws, or amendments to preexisting laws that one always has to consider the unintended consequences. When one runs a red light or stop sign they may not be aware of the fact that they've just set off a whole chain-reaction of events that can and possibly will impact others and possibly for years to come.

So to those who say that if they run a red light/stop sign they're only "impacting" themselves, I have to ask do you want to be responsible for causing someone to suffer mental/emotional anguish because you couldn't wait for the light to change, or wait a few seconds before proceeding through an intersection controlled by a stop sign? Or do you want to be responsible for a driver swerving off of the road to avoid hitting you and instead ending up hitting and severely injuring or killing a small child?
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Old 03-24-12, 09:07 PM   #104
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[QUOTE=Slaninar;14007843][QUOTE=squirtdad;14007788]
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Originally Posted by Vlaam4ever View Post

- I hate waiting at red lights when it is obviously safe to cross.

- I am happy police in my country doesn't fine me for doing so on foot/bike. It is against the law (60$ fine), but they seldom bother to catch and fine such criminals.

- At the same time, I'm frustrated to see that some people cross red lights (on foot 99% of the time) without looking and cause cars to brake/turn/crash/run them over. When I cross red lights, nobody has to sweat.

- The problem is those people running red lights without looking probably think the same way I do and maybe some day I'll also cause a car to brake/run me over.... But until then, I still hate waiting at the red lights when I'm sure it is safe to cross, so I cross.

Think about this, how many criminals might have escaped justice because they were breaking some minor law but the police turned a "blind eye" to it because it was a "minor law." Ted Bundy had been stopped for a minor traffic violation (if I remember correctly) but had been able to talk his way out of it. Had the cop conducted a search of his car he would have found a cut up body in garbage bags in the backseat.

I'm sure that they do, but considering that it's not just your life on the line if you should make an error in judgement, but the lives of other innocent bystanders is it really worth the risk? So you have to wait a minute or two at a red light, or you have to do a trackstand and wait a few seconds at a stop sign.

It's a small price to pay not to ruin someone else's life.
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Old 03-24-12, 09:12 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Not exactly. What happens when a car uses a bike lane???
Probably sadly, in a lot of areas not much of anything. But I do know that when I've seen motorists parking their cars in the bike lane and I've called it into the non-emergency number that they HAVE sent an officer out to have a chat with the person(s) who have parked in the bike lane.
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Old 03-24-12, 09:14 PM   #106
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Large trucks have different rules on freeways and are not allowed to travel on certain roads due to their heavy weight.
True, BUT there are still laws/rules that they have to follow and they DO apply equally to ALL large trucks.
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Old 03-24-12, 09:46 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by WolfsBane View Post
Holly cripes... how far have we fallen in knowing what we are supposed to be doing as cyclists.

Cyclist have the same rights and responsibilities as ANY other vehicle, motor powered or not, on the road. There are some exceptions, but those should be specified in in each state's civil planning. Some states do allow for cyclists to go through a light when there is no crossing traffic present in a minor intersection, but not all states do. Just as some states authorize tandem/side by side riding, but others do not. And as a moving vehicle on the road, law enforcement personnel have every right and duty to stop a cyclist when they are breaking the law or acting in a reckless manner that endangers not only themselves, but others on the road.
Agreed, it's so funny how the same people will ***** and moan about how motorists do this or that to them while out riding, but they feel justified in breaking the laws/rules themselves. Using the claim "hey the ONLY one that I'm hurting/endangering with my actions." I guess it's asking too much of them for them to stop a second and consider the unintended consequences of their actions.
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Old 03-24-12, 09:58 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by DJ Shaun View Post
Our paths have a 20kph limit. That's 12mph. Way too slow for when I'm on my fast commuting bike.
I have a couple of trails (two are actually different segments of the same trail) that have a 20MPH (32.18688KPH), 25MPH (40.2336KPH) and 10MPH (16.09344KPH). The trail(s) that have 25/10MPH (32.18688KPH/16.09344KPH) speed limits is/are the same trail i.e. The City Trails in St. Petersburg, Fl, actually all three "trails" are pretty much one and the same.
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Old 03-24-12, 10:02 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by david58 View Post
So?

The argument that you are the only one at risk is both selfish and false. JABs are just as irresponsible as JAMs. The person that tatoos you when you blow a light WILL be traumatized. You may not care (particularly if you are on a slab getting your complexion spray-painted on and your guts sucked out thru a tube so you won't stink at the viewing), but your irresponsibility will traumatize someone.

And, it is old WIVE'S tale....
Actually, I think that he might have been agreeing with the statement.

I would also like to know how many professional/commercial drivers have "walked" away from driving because some JAB ran out in front of them and they didn't have the time/room to stop in time to avoid hitting them.

Okay, I stand corrected, he wasn't agreeing with the other poster.

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Old 03-24-12, 10:07 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
If it is not OK for people to lie to police, then why is it OK for police to lie to people?

Maybe it is the same reason that they do not believe they need to obey the same laws they enforce.
That is something that I have wondered about for a very long time. Sadly, it's my understanding that even if asked pointblank if they're a cop working undercover that they do not have to tell the truth.

But if "we" lie to them there is a whole host of charges that they can slap "us" with.
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Old 03-24-12, 11:44 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post

Think about this, how many criminals might have escaped justice because they were breaking some minor law but the police turned a "blind eye" to it because it was a "minor law." Ted Bundy had been stopped for a minor traffic violation (if I remember correctly) but had been able to talk his way out of it. Had the cop conducted a search of his car he would have found a cut up body in garbage bags in the backseat.
That's why a man should always drive safely after robbing a bank.


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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
I'm sure that they do, but considering that it's not just your life on the line if you should make an error in judgement, but the lives of other innocent bystanders is it really worth the risk? So you have to wait a minute or two at a red light, or you have to do a trackstand and wait a few seconds at a stop sign.

It's a small price to pay not to ruin someone else's life.
When I run red lights, I do so when I'm 100% sure it is safe. I've been hit by a car 3 times so far and each time I had green light and right of way. I saw car slowing down, but it wasn't because they even noticed me - back on gass -bam! For me it turns out it is safer going on red lights when I'm sure there's no cars that can get to me. What do you say about that?!

It would be nice if all the people drove safely and respected the law. Since that is not the case and I can't change the world, I do what gives me less hassle (but lets me sleep at night). That's why I keep running red lights, going wrong way in one way streets (also when there is no traffic), using grass, roads, parking lots as shortcuts etc. Living on the edge! )))
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Old 03-25-12, 01:13 AM   #112
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That's why a man should always drive safely after robbing a bank.
Or maybe not break the law in the first place.

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When I run red lights, I do so when I'm 100% sure it is safe. I've been hit by a car 3 times so far and each time I had green light and right of way. I saw car slowing down, but it wasn't because they even noticed me - back on gass -bam! For me it turns out it is safer going on red lights when I'm sure there's no cars that can get to me. What do you say about that?!
Sadly I've had more than a few close calls with motorists who themselves weren't respecting the lights or who on a road that appeared not to have any cross traffic have suddenly appeared after exiting a parking lot that I was unable to see the exit for.

Or as in the case this past December, as I was sitting at a stop sign at a four-way stop I had the driver of a BMW who couldn't wait for the other car on the side of the intersection opposite from him to clear the intersection and instead cut the turn short in front of said car and turn right into my lane hitting me head on. Had I been moving i.e. running the stop sign we would have hit with much greater force. And instead of just destroying my front wheel (which he did replace) he probably would have severally damaged my bicycle and/or seriously injured me in the process.

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It would be nice if all the people drove safely and respected the law. Since that is not the case and I can't change the world, I do what gives me less hassle (but lets me sleep at night). That's why I keep running red lights, going wrong way in one way streets (also when there is no traffic), using grass, roads, parking lots as shortcuts etc. Living on the edge! )))
As long as you can sleep with yourself when your selfishness causes some other person to have nightmares because they hit you or worse they end up hitting an innocent bystander. As you are being just as selfish as the motorists that most of us here complain about as well as the driver of the BMW who hit me back in December.

As had he NOT been selfish and only concerned about getting wherever it was that he was going he would have waited for the other car to clear the intersection before he went. But no, he had to make his turn out of turn and he ended up hitting me because of it.

I have also had close calls with other cyclists who have also run red lights. My only response in those cases was to call out a "see that's why you don't run red lights."

But just keep on telling yourself whatever it takes to make your "safe" actions alright in your brain. Just don't come back here complaining when some cop pulls you over for running a red light/stop sign or when you end up getting hit by a car that you didn't see.
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Old 03-25-12, 02:11 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by catmandew52 View Post
All it takes is one lapse, one time, one second.
When someone is killed in a railroad crossing accident, the psychological damage to the engineer is so great, they usually quit the railroad.
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Originally Posted by david58 View Post
... you clarify by stating that this is one of the most extreme cases you have heard of. And then you point out his failure to mention how many engineers stayed on, followed by your equally data-less "Most...have hit something and most are still working." Is it all smoke and mirrors, or you got any numbers?

You refuse to acknowledge that it is even remotely possible that a driver of an auto might be traumatized by hitting a bicyclist. I don't have as broad a background as you do (), so my limited sample of folks involved in auto crashes with deaths involved is probably not of the same scope as your experience. However, the family and friends I have known that were involved WERE messed up, and never got over the fact that a life was lost in the crash - and in most cases the only fault they had was being on the highway at that moment (hit by drunk drivers).

Folks that have killed without remorse are sociopaths - you paint with a very wide brush when you imply that drivers are such. When you blow a red light and get injured or killed, maybe you will be "lucky" enough to be hit by a sociopath, but most likely it will be a "normal" someone that will feel plenty of remorse, even though the accident will be your fault.

And folks want "fair." When we as cyclists ignore the rules of the road, drivers consider it unfair and paint us all with the brush of being JABs. You should understand that, since you are so attuned to watching JAMs. If nothing else, following the rules allows some degree of predictability and order, and that is a good thing. With gasoline prices climbing and more folks commuting to work (at least in my small town), an anarchistic approach to cyclists mixing with cars is a bad thing. Forget the legality, the cars win.

But we ain't gonna change each other's minds, are we now?
So you think it is common place for trains to run into church buses killing lots of kids. How did you guys jump from cyclist going through red lights with no one close enough to hit them, to trains hitting church buses with kids.

Your's and catmandew52's extrapolation is extreme.

Since it was catmandew52 that started the train claims, then he gets to go first with proof. And one off extreme cases do not count.

And I see you are back to the tactic of trying to puts words in others mouths that you can then argue against.

I gave you a few examples of drivers injuring cyclist without remorse (even when it was the motorist fault); please do show all the articles of the drivers with such severe trauma that they gave up driving for life. Did any of the non-drivers involved in your accident claims give up driving for life?
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Old 03-25-12, 08:40 AM   #114
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CB HI, you are very entertaining. Thanks for my morning lift.
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Old 03-25-12, 08:02 PM   #115
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I once got stopped by a cop, back in high school still, cause I was apparently speeding in a school zone. Next day I picked up a speedometer and have been careful about it.

As for running red lights, that is a 180$ fine here. Its also a 110$ fine not to stop at a stop sign.

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Old 03-26-12, 12:58 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Or maybe not break the law in the first place.
You a cop, or Ned Flanders?

Just joking.


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But just keep on telling yourself whatever it takes to make your "safe" actions alright in your brain. Just don't come back here complaining when some cop pulls you over for running a red light/stop sign or when you end up getting hit by a car that you didn't see.
What's the use of complaining? It might make me feel a bit relieved, but useless still. Got hit last time last September on a green light. Got hit several more times when having the right of way by careless drivers. Nothing I do will change drivers behaviour. I stay alert, careful and disregard rules when they are pointless in a particular situation. I find it silly to wait on an empty road for the light to change, knowing I won't get fined for it. Laws aren't always = justice, not even order for that matter. Guess our argument is more about mentality than anything else. When cops start fining cyclists for speeding, running red lights etc, I might change the practice, until then I like freedom.
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Old 03-26-12, 05:49 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Gritter View Post
My bicycle and motorcycle never trip the sensors, and I have to eventually run the light anyway - sometimes I'll wait for a couple of revolutions, but end up breaking the law anyhow.
Most states have laws about non-functioning traffic lights. If you proceed through a red light after waiting several cycles, the light would be considered non-functioning and you wouldn't be breaking the law.

As a matter of practice, I have several lights that I can trigger *sometimes* with my bicycle. If they don't turn within 20 seconds of me arriving and there's no other traffic I proceed, since I know from experience if they aren't green by then they won't be. I could possible still get a ticket in that case (if there was a cop around of course), but give the amount of time I used to wait and my past experience I feel like I've done my due diligence.
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Old 03-26-12, 07:23 AM   #118
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My bicycle and motorcycle never trip the sensors, and I have to eventually run the light anyway - sometimes I'll wait for a couple of revolutions, but end up breaking the law anyhow.
You have to place your bike properly over the induction loop. Induction loops work by detecting a change of inductance and even aluminum or carbon fiber bikes can be used to trigger them.

One of my favorite riding moments of last year was rolling up on a stop where a large group of full-dress Harleys were impatiently waiting for the left turn light to change for them. Apparently the two riders in front were not willing to roll on the red, so they were holding everyone else up, and none of their bikes were properly positioned over the induction loop to trigger it.

As I approached on my mountain bike, I swung very close to the front end of the 2nd rider in line and nearly touched the 1st rider's rear fender, to put myself directly over the induction loop, and then I did a quick trackstand that triggered the light. Then I hopped a couple of times to swing my front end clear of the 1st rider's bike and then I rode to the front of the line, just as the light changed.

As they passed me in the turn every passenger and several riders stared me down as if I had just levitated a car. I just smiled and nodded.

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Old 03-26-12, 11:54 AM   #119
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One of my younger brothers is an engineer for the railroad.
While he was still a conductor, one of the senior engineers he liked working with hit a stalled church bus half full of kids.
After he was brought back to yard, he got in his car and left, forever.
My brother says 3 other engineers he has worked have quit after hitting stalled vehicles and he would probably do the same.
I don't get why they quit. It isn't like they could swerve the train to avoid them or anything....not to seem gruesome (probably to late....) I'd have no problem if I hit someone. Someone made a mistake and it wasn't me. Trains don't exactly stop in remotely the same timeframe/distance as 18-wheelers, especially freight trains.

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Your example is one of the most extreme cases I have heard of. You fail to mention how many engineers did not quit after hitting something on the tracks. Most engineers that have worked any length of time have hit something and most are still working.
I agree, that seems like a really extreme few cases. Car vs train, train pummels car, flawless victory (assuming the engine is what makes contact, there could be some scratched, doubt it though). It sounds kinda like car vs bike, car pummels bike, victory (the car sustains some damage).
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Old 03-26-12, 12:33 PM   #120
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And I know someone (a high school coach of mine actually) who hit a guy (both in cars) through no fault of his own (the other guy blew a stop sign and ran straight in front of him in a bad rainstorm where there was no visibility or ability to stop) and the other guy died. My coach was seriously messed up for a long time. You don't have to be driving a train to get messed up when someone dies, that's the point of the example not how many people quit afterwards. My coach still drove, but he was very uncomfortable doing so for as long as I knew him after that. The point is, if you pull out in front of someone, they hit you and you die, you're not the only one affected by it. Your family (probably) will be for starters, and there's a good chance that the guy who killed you is going to be f@#$ed up psychologically. You aren't the only victim of your actions. Railroad employee turnover isn't relevant to that overall point.
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Old 03-26-12, 12:59 PM   #121
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for anyone who questions the psychological impact on train engineers after killing a person on the the tracks...(in the range of 900 a year and increasing.... suicide by train is increasingf in the SF bay area.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/1319...engineers.html

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12970005

http://www.progressiverailroading.co...rience--23536#

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local...-52361717.html

And to restate my point. Running a red light is self centered behavior, with no real justification. All arguments as to it is only the cyclist at risk don't take in other consequences.
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Old 03-26-12, 01:47 PM   #122
elkootcho
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This is the street in the original post. Would you roll this light after checking for traffic? Yes, it's illegal but, be real, would you wait for a "walk" signal here? I'm not talking bombing the intersection without slowing.
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Old 03-26-12, 02:12 PM   #123
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This is the street in the original post. Would you roll this light after checking for traffic? Yes, it's illegal but, be real, would you wait for a "walk" signal here? I'm not talking bombing the intersection without slowing.
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Do you know the lights operate for the MUP? I haven't ridden on it yet. Are they timed? Or do they activate when someone is getting near/push a button?

Were you riding the MUP and crossed Tyrone? If so it doesn't seem like running the red light would be the violation, but more like jay walking/riding. Or were you on Tyrone and ran the red across the MUP/OrangeLine Busway?

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Old 03-26-12, 02:40 PM   #124
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Riding the MUP and crossing Tyrone. The light is timed for the transit buses but there is a push button to eventually get a walk signal.
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Old 03-26-12, 04:09 PM   #125
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Riding the MUP and crossing Tyrone. The light is timed for the transit buses but there is a push button to eventually get a walk signal.
Shouldn't that be a j-walking/crossing against signal ticket and not red light running ticket then? It is not clear you running any red lights, but crossing an intersection while the red stop hand was displayed.
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