Need advice on older shimano group.
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Need advice on older shimano group.
Hello all,
I have a shimano 600 groupset from 1992 in my possession and would like to build a commuter out of a new cyclocross frame. Is there anything different about todays frames than the early 90's frames that I should make note of before purchasing a frame? The old group set came from a schwinn paramount that was upgraded to other parts and the shimano 600 group got put in a box in the garage. Within the box is a 7 speed 13-23 cassette and 7 speed down tube shifters. Is it possible to swap the 7 speed with a 9 speed and the down tubes to 9 speed bar ends and keep the shimano 600 RD,FD, and crank with new chain and cables? What about the bottom bracket compatibility with the old crank and new frame?
Also, I have been looking for steel frames in the $200-300 mark are there any that you would recommend? Surly cross check frames are around $480. I saw the nashbar X frame, although its alum, with a steel fork it may not be so bad, but again i'm not sure if the 1992 shimano 600 group is compatible with newer frames. Thanks for your help.
I have a shimano 600 groupset from 1992 in my possession and would like to build a commuter out of a new cyclocross frame. Is there anything different about todays frames than the early 90's frames that I should make note of before purchasing a frame? The old group set came from a schwinn paramount that was upgraded to other parts and the shimano 600 group got put in a box in the garage. Within the box is a 7 speed 13-23 cassette and 7 speed down tube shifters. Is it possible to swap the 7 speed with a 9 speed and the down tubes to 9 speed bar ends and keep the shimano 600 RD,FD, and crank with new chain and cables? What about the bottom bracket compatibility with the old crank and new frame?
Also, I have been looking for steel frames in the $200-300 mark are there any that you would recommend? Surly cross check frames are around $480. I saw the nashbar X frame, although its alum, with a steel fork it may not be so bad, but again i'm not sure if the 1992 shimano 600 group is compatible with newer frames. Thanks for your help.
#2
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Nice groupset; don't know about the indexing compatibility issues... If the front derailer is a clap-on, then the new frame must have same seat tube diameter.
Why not look for a nice vintage steel road frame? You could probably do quite well for $200-300, certainly much better than what you can buy new.
Why not look for a nice vintage steel road frame? You could probably do quite well for $200-300, certainly much better than what you can buy new.
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I have looked at several steel vintage frames on ebay, but I wasn't sure if they had the option of taking a rear rack for some light grocery runs. I also wasn't sure if they could handle some light trails and such for my commute because that is what interests me to cyclocross frames.
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Shimano 600 is good stuff.
A lot of the older "sport touring" frames had eyelets for fenders and racks, and those that originally specified 27" wheels can be converted to 700C and get a little fatter tire in them.
A lot of the older "sport touring" frames had eyelets for fenders and racks, and those that originally specified 27" wheels can be converted to 700C and get a little fatter tire in them.
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As previously mentioned, just make sure the seat tube diameter matches the clamp of the FD.
For the RD, indexing to 9 speeds should be fine...just switch out the cassette, shifters and chain as you mentioned.
EDIT: One thing to keep in mind is the range of your cassette..the RD may only be able to handle a certain capacity due to the cage length. As long as you do go to 34 teeth in the rear you'll be fine
For the RD, indexing to 9 speeds should be fine...just switch out the cassette, shifters and chain as you mentioned.
EDIT: One thing to keep in mind is the range of your cassette..the RD may only be able to handle a certain capacity due to the cage length. As long as you do go to 34 teeth in the rear you'll be fine
Last edited by jdefran; 04-04-12 at 07:51 AM.
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It is my understanding that what you are proposing should work. I have a 105 crankset and FD from the same era (1055 groupset), and I'm successfully using it with a 9-speed cassette. This thread has some info from people doing something even closer to what you're doing.
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Tangentially, you could use the 600 shifters in friction mode with a 9-speed cassette. Whatever you do, don't throw any of those parts away without offering them in C&V first!
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Thanks everyone. Yeah finding a nice steel frame has been taking a while to find. So any 9 speed 12-27 would work with the components? Also, iv'e noted that the seat tube must have the same diameter.
Would their be any issues with the bottom bracket diameter on a new frame fitting with the crank of the shimano 600?
Would their be any issues with the bottom bracket diameter on a new frame fitting with the crank of the shimano 600?
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If you're reusing the old bottom bracket, you're probably going to want to make sure the shell is the same size 68, 70, 73 mm, English or Italian threaded.
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Checking VeloBase, it looks like the RD from that time period had a max cog size of 28T.
P.S. Mmmm, tricolor...
P.S. Mmmm, tricolor...
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Wow thanks for that database from Velo Thermionic! It has the pictures and everything I need to know there about my RD. Now I just have to find a cassette that would work with some 9 speed bar ends and of course a steel frame in my budget.
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Yep something like this. rack braze ons are standard.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trek-Bicycle...item5d3315e5b6
or this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Trek-520-Tou...item1c25876501
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Your rear hub is definitely spaced at 126mm, while modern road frames have 130mm rear spacing. So not only can you not put a full 9 speed cassette on it, you can't use it with a newer frame unless you add some axle spacers/washers (OK, maybe you could get away with squeezing a steel frame around it, but don't try forcing a 130mm aluminum or carbon frame to hold a 126 hub). More info on using more than 7 gears on that hub: https://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#bodycompat
BTW, it's nice to hear others confidently predict that a 7s tricolor 600 RD could handle the extra ~5mm lateral width of a 9s cluster (https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html) -- maybe I should rethink my planned IG-to-HG upgrade for my earlier 600 rear hub, though I'd hate to set aside those great old 600 downtube shifters.
BTW, it's nice to hear others confidently predict that a 7s tricolor 600 RD could handle the extra ~5mm lateral width of a 9s cluster (https://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html) -- maybe I should rethink my planned IG-to-HG upgrade for my earlier 600 rear hub, though I'd hate to set aside those great old 600 downtube shifters.
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I have looked at several steel vintage frames on ebay, but I wasn't sure if they had the option of taking a rear rack for some light grocery runs. I also wasn't sure if they could handle some light trails and such for my commute because that is what interests me to cyclocross frames.
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Where are you located? I would search Craigslist. You should be able to find something in the $150 to $200 range without much of a problem unless you live really remote. Then even if you need to get it powder-coated you are under budget.
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I live in central WA. 3 hours east of Seattle. I've looked at CL in my area, but this isn't really a biking town and there is not much to choose from. I'd have to do the 3 hours to Seattle and 3 hours back. Also, there are a lot of complete bikes for sale, but I'm looking for just a frame to build one up with my old parts.
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I wouldn't rule out a complete bike. It will make the search a lot easier and may not cost any more money.
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Plus, if your parts are better, you can toss the other parts, or start the cycle all over again.
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I went to the LBS today and the guy said I would not be able to run a 9 speed cassette with my RD because of the width of the 9 speed vs the 7 speed. He said my RD probably runs on 126 mm and a 9 speed would need 130 mm which you guys have confirmed already. He said running in friction mode would be an option also if I really wanted to put a 9 speed on.
Maybe I don't understand. Some are saying a 9speed cassette will work and others (LBS guy) are saying that it won't because of the 5 mm difference. Which is it? Either way friction is an option at this point. It just seems like a waste of good Ultegra gear if things aren't compatible.
We also talked about steel frames and he said I can get a surly Cross check for around $400, a Pake C-mute for around $300 or a soma frame for closer to $500 along with others.
Maybe I don't understand. Some are saying a 9speed cassette will work and others (LBS guy) are saying that it won't because of the 5 mm difference. Which is it? Either way friction is an option at this point. It just seems like a waste of good Ultegra gear if things aren't compatible.
We also talked about steel frames and he said I can get a surly Cross check for around $400, a Pake C-mute for around $300 or a soma frame for closer to $500 along with others.
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I went to the LBS today and the guy said I would not be able to run a 9 speed cassette with my RD because of the width of the 9 speed vs the 7 speed. He said my RD probably runs on 126 mm and a 9 speed would need 130 mm which you guys have confirmed already. He said running in friction mode would be an option also if I really wanted to put a 9 speed on.
Maybe I don't understand. Some are saying a 9speed cassette will work and others (LBS guy) are saying that it won't because of the 5 mm difference. Which is it?
Maybe I don't understand. Some are saying a 9speed cassette will work and others (LBS guy) are saying that it won't because of the 5 mm difference. Which is it?
2) The rear derailleur needs to be able to travel the full width of the cassette, Sheldon Brown said a non-Dura Ace 7s like you have should work fine. (https://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#897)
Friction mode -- with a Shimano or SRAM 9s cassette, the Shimano 9s bar end shifters you mentioned will be fine.
-Peter
** Sheldon reports a 2nd hand report of someone putting 9 of 10 cogs from a 10s cassette on a 7s freehub and shifting with 10s levers: https://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#897. That doesn't sound so great to me -- from what I understand, only SRAM tends to have cassettes where all the cogs can be removed individually, and SRAM 10s cassettes cost more than a 9s cassette and new freehub body.
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A few years ago I built up a C'dale SR300 into a 1x9 climbing bike for the Dirty Dozen ride held in Pittsburgh every year( www.dannychew.com ). I used a Sugino 103mm track bb w/matching cranks and a 38t Rocket Ring w/a Paul Chainkeeper. On the rear a Sram 12x26 9sp cassette on a Shimano 32h Parallax hub. It was laced to a Sun M14 rim. Removed the 13t cog from the cassette and added a spacer and a 34t cog on the lower end. Used an Altus 34t cap. mtb der in combination w/an old Shimano bar end friction shifter probably made for 6 or 7 sp. The combo worked flawlessly.
Would think that a downtube friction system would've worked just as well. As you're using the fd as well, just make sure your st on your choice of frameset matches up w/it sizewise.
Last edited by nashcommguy; 04-07-12 at 03:15 PM. Reason: opps! wrote dt and meant st...