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  1. #1
    Acts 2:38 rex_kramer's Avatar
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    Gizmodo destroys some locks

    Philippians 2:9-11

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    Well. That was a depressing read.

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    Yawn. Like it's news that no lock can stand up to an angle grinder? I have a Krypto Fahgettaboudit, but still depend on the fact that chances are I'll be locked near someone with a crappier lock that is more appealing to a thief.

    BTW: In the comments the author talks about the "$300 New York Lock". This is either bull****, or someone at the bike shop REALLY ripped him off. even the large faghettaboudit chain is only $105 on Amazon right now.

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    Ive been told im a nice guy .But if some one trys to steal from me i flip a switch.i get so mad they better pray i cant catch them

  5. #5
    In the right lane gerv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Face Palm View Post
    Yawn. Like it's news that no lock can stand up to an angle grinder? I have a Krypto Fahgettaboudit, but still depend on the fact that chances are I'll be locked near someone with a crappier lock that is more appealing to a thief.
    The NY Times fashion photographer Bill Cunningham says he has lost 17 bicycles in his long career. He advises buying second hand.

    Anyway you look at it, still cheaper than an SUV. I use a cable lock.

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    im going to start using 2 locks

  7. #7
    working on progress treebound's Avatar
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    There's an old saying that goes something like "all bikes with a lock weigh 30 pounds",
    based on the scale that a bike over 30 pounds doesn't need much of a lock,
    and a 25 pound bike needs a 5 pound lock,
    and a 20 pound bike needs a 10 pound locking setup ( u-lock +chain + padlock),
    and a sub-20 pound bike needs a locking system somewhere north of 10 pounds to secure it and cause thieves to look for easier targets.

    And always remember, a lock is only as secure as what it is locked to, sometimes the thieves go after the post or tree or rack or fence instead of the lock, then they deal with the lock later.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Life happens, don't be a spectator.

  8. #8
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    That's just sad. I mean I understand the point of an angle grinder is to be able to grind through just about anything but seriously? I mean they can't come up with anythign to stop a 40$ angle grinder from home depot? How about a lock made from carbon nanotubes or something?

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    Ok Gizmodo,
    You've told us what we already know, stuff can be destroyed in order to achieve a desired result. That's nice, but now that you've proven this point, like everyone else who ever has, do you have any sort of solution? You have described the problem, but not any solution to said problem; this doesn't help anyone.

    Do any of the locks tested come with an insurance policy against theft at all? If so, what are they? What is the likely-hood of crime in the area, and the time factor for the theft prevention of the bike in question? Does the criminal have have 30 seconds before someone catches them, or 3 hours? What is the ratio of criminals to honest people in the environment? 1 in a 1,000,000, or a bike thief convention? If a grinder is required, how practical is the transportation of the tool too and from the scene of the crime?

    Thank you Gizmodo for telling us that you have no solutions and have found the same problem that was discovered at the dawn of time, stuff can be stolen even if locked. Useless.

    (<--devil's advocate)

  10. #10
    http://www.538.nl acidfast7's Avatar
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    rear wheel locks are common on city bikes over here and the small ones seem to be the best.

    most people use a cable lock to the street post/fence and the wheel lock as a deterrent

    it's only a tiny bit of weight and renders the bike pretty much useless because cutting it off (to get the rear wheel to roll again) would require wheel/frame damage.

    i'm surprised more bike companies don't use them

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  11. #11
    Asi
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    About materials for U locks:

    Titanium is best against prying with a crowbar, it is relative stiff, have fair strength (2/3 of steel), but it will not break, it is very resilient (tenacious) - that means it is very hard to actually break it in two. Not good against grinders - Titanium has soft surface, a rusted nail will scratch it. It is somewhat good against hacksaws as it will bend a lot in the cut, will require higher pressure on the blade, higher temperature on the teeth of the blade - it may dull the blade.

    Wolfram (tungsten) - great against grinders, this material really stands against most angle grinders, it is extremely stiff, very high strength also. Problem with it is that it is fragile in the end, it shatters. A good pound with a hammer against something solid may break it. (but it may be overcome if it's in thick section and covered with some rubbery material to absorb shocks)
    Bad thing is that cost a small fortune and it is VERY heavy (23000kg/m^3 , gold has 19000, steel has 7800, titanium has 4600, aluminum has 2700, magnesium has 1800, go figure)

    So common sense is ultra high strength steel that stand very well against grinders but are a bit fragile, they shatter.

    If I would design an U lock, I'd made a Titanium core 10-15mm with UHSS coated with TiN over the Ti solid bar (about 2-3mm of uhss casing around the core). The problem is that UHSS you cannot bend so it is a bit of a headache to actually manufacture a bent UHSS tube with Ti core. My general sense say that a combo like this may held very well against most tools (jaws cutters, grinders, and hacksaws), but it's not good for manufacturing and price could be prohibitive also.

    But anyway I've seen and used a relative portable size hydraulic press made for cutting solid steel bars up to 40mm diameter of steel. - hydro-pneumatic reservoirs at high pressure may be enough for a one time use to cut any known lock or chain.

    My 2cents about possibilities as an engineer.

  12. #12
    Brain in a Jar Evil Mastermind's Avatar
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    The solution may be to simply attach a number of running and facing outwards angle grinders to your lock.

  13. #13
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    Bike Radar also does a description of destructive testing of locks.
    More types than just U locks.

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    Yup, you sure can steal a bike if you want to.

    Next week, in "studies of the obvious," we'll look at how long it takes a properly equipped thief to break into your apartment. It's probably less than the 4 minutes it took to grind the Fahgettaboudit.

    The ratio of thieves-to-bikes is sufficiently low that angle grinder attacks aren't exactly an everyday concern. For about the cost of buying a decent lock every year or two, you can buy insurance, and stop worrying about it.

  15. #15
    Real Men Ride Ordinaries fuzz2050's Avatar
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    Insurance isn't the answer, even Kryptonite's New York line, with it's insurance is notoriously hard to get a reimbursement from. Unless you have documented ownership of the bike (think sales receipt), and are holding the broken lock, don't even bother. If there is any chance it was your lock job that failed, you're out of luck.

    If you want to insure your bikes under your home-owners, or renters insurance, go right ahead, but good luck making a claim. I had a good policy, but even so, my deductible was a major fraction of the cost of the bike, and then your loose all the benefits you get from not making a claim. It's not a bad idea just in case there's a massive fire or something, but just by itself, it's barely worth it.

    That's always the thing about security, as much effort as you put into making something secure, it takes only a fraction of that effort to find a way around your precautions.

  16. #16
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    I have an On Guard that has quite a few marks, as in a few thugs tried to cut it with bolt cutters, and it's still going strong after 2 years.

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    Senior Member smurray's Avatar
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    The quality of this article is one of the reasons I stopped reading Gizmodo a few years ago.

  18. #18
    EAA
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    Every angle grinder I've used was deafeningly loud, which doesn't seem ideal for a tool used to steal a bike in a public place. They would be very effective against almost any lock/chain/cable though. I guess maybe the general public doesn't care enough to notice or do anything if they see someone chopping through a bike lock on the street.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Ridefreemc's Avatar
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    ^^^Asi-thanks for that rundown. I have always wondered about different material and their advantages and drawbacks. Always thought there was a better way, but thought that those in the business would have figured that out by now.
    On the move!
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    Why are there no ring locks in North America. I'm a fan of the AXA Defender with the 110 DPI chain:
    http://www.dutchbikebits.com/index.p...product_id=265

    But had to order it from Europe.

    Greg

  21. #21
    Senior Member enigmaT120's Avatar
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    Would they stop an angle grinder?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asi View Post
    About materials for U locks:

    Titanium is best against prying with a crowbar, it is relative stiff, have fair strength (2/3 of steel), but it will not break, it is very resilient (tenacious) - that means it is very hard to actually break it in two. Not good against grinders - Titanium has soft surface, a rusted nail will scratch it. It is somewhat good against hacksaws as it will bend a lot in the cut, will require higher pressure on the blade, higher temperature on the teeth of the blade - it may dull the blade.

    Wolfram (tungsten) - great against grinders, this material really stands against most angle grinders, it is extremely stiff, very high strength also. Problem with it is that it is fragile in the end, it shatters. A good pound with a hammer against something solid may break it. (but it may be overcome if it's in thick section and covered with some rubbery material to absorb shocks)
    Bad thing is that cost a small fortune and it is VERY heavy (23000kg/m^3 , gold has 19000, steel has 7800, titanium has 4600, aluminum has 2700, magnesium has 1800, go figure)

    So common sense is ultra high strength steel that stand very well against grinders but are a bit fragile, they shatter.

    If I would design an U lock, I'd made a Titanium core 10-15mm with UHSS coated with TiN over the Ti solid bar (about 2-3mm of uhss casing around the core). The problem is that UHSS you cannot bend so it is a bit of a headache to actually manufacture a bent UHSS tube with Ti core. My general sense say that a combo like this may held very well against most tools (jaws cutters, grinders, and hacksaws), but it's not good for manufacturing and price could be prohibitive also.

    But anyway I've seen and used a relative portable size hydraulic press made for cutting solid steel bars up to 40mm diameter of steel. - hydro-pneumatic reservoirs at high pressure may be enough for a one time use to cut any known lock or chain.

    My 2cents about possibilities as an engineer.
    I'm curious, Asi, if you've seen the TiGr lock http://Www.tigrlock.com and what your thoughts are on that use of titanium?

    Materials, though, are only part of what makes a lock resistant to breaking. It has to be designed to withstand the actual attacks it will be facing.

    Given, as someone commented on above, that the major lock manufacturers seem not to be interested in revolutionizing bike locks by employing expensive metals (e.g. Ti) and sophisticated technologies (e.g. GPS, motion sensors), I think it's fair to ask if we've reached a point of break resistance overkill?

    How would we know? Well, I'd like to know what the most common attack modes are, and on which types of locks. I don't know the answers, but I'd be surprised if it were cordless angle grinders on the racks at the bus station.

    If we presume, then, that just about any decent u-lock will defend well against a quiet, portable, extending handle bolt cutter, and that most thefts are targeted based on opportunity, what really becomes important when deciding which lock to buy and use?

    Perhaps inadvertently, the Gizmodo piece addressed the factors that really should go into deciding on a lock by looking at issues like ease of use, carry-mount efficacy, and weight. Also, of course price. Personally, these were the prime issues that sold me on the TiGr (along with it's flexibile lockup scenarios), rather ultimate lock invincibility.

    Yes, it's a gamble on my end since I don't know what the lock is likely to face, but I'm usually locking up in high traffic areas, during the day and early evening, in a pretty safe town.

    Like I said, if someone takes an angle grinder to it, I'll be shocked. Then I'll go out and buy another TiGr probably! I value my user experience above attempting to do the impossible.
    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  23. #23
    Senior Member terrapin44's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
    rear wheel locks are common on city bikes over here and the small ones seem to be the best.

    most people use a cable lock to the street post/fence and the wheel lock as a deterrent

    it's only a tiny bit of weight and renders the bike pretty much useless because cutting it off (to get the rear wheel to roll again) would require wheel/frame damage.

    i'm surprised more bike companies don't use them

    Quote Originally Posted by Trifusion View Post
    Why are there no ring locks in North America. I'm a fan of the AXA Defender with the 110 DPI chain:
    http://www.dutchbikebits.com/index.p...product_id=265

    But had to order it from Europe.
    I really haven't heard of these before but for my situation I think one of these would be great. Especially with the additional chain. I'm going to Europe soon (Hannover Germany) and might see if I can find one in a bike shop/sporting goods store to bring home.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigmaT120 View Post
    Would they stop an angle grinder?
    Yes and no .... Nothing stops an angle grinder but the chain would be hard to cut because you can't keep it still like a u-lock and the ring is so close to the tire you would have to damage the tire and rim to cut through it.

    Greg

  25. #25
    Asi
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    I'm curious, Asi, if you've seen the TiGr lock http://Www.tigrlock.com and what your thoughts are on that use of titanium?

    Materials, though, are only part of what makes a lock resistant to breaking. It has to be designed to withstand the actual attacks it will be facing.

    Given, as someone commented on above, that the major lock manufacturers seem not to be interested in revolutionizing bike locks by employing expensive metals (e.g. Ti) and sophisticated technologies (e.g. GPS, motion sensors), I think it's fair to ask if we've reached a point of break resistance overkill?

    How would we know? Well, I'd like to know what the most common attack modes are, and on which types of locks. I don't know the answers, but I'd be surprised if it were cordless angle grinders on the racks at the bus station.

    If we presume, then, that just about any decent u-lock will defend well against a quiet, portable, extending handle bolt cutter, and that most thefts are targeted based on opportunity, what really becomes important when deciding which lock to buy and use?

    Perhaps inadvertently, the Gizmodo piece addressed the factors that really should go into deciding on a lock by looking at issues like ease of use, carry-mount efficacy, and weight. Also, of course price. Personally, these were the prime issues that sold me on the TiGr (along with it's flexibile lockup scenarios), rather ultimate lock invincibility.

    Yes, it's a gamble on my end since I don't know what the lock is likely to face, but I'm usually locking up in high traffic areas, during the day and early evening, in a pretty safe town.

    Like I said, if someone takes an angle grinder to it, I'll be shocked. Then I'll go out and buy another TiGr probably! I value my user experience above attempting to do the impossible.
    I did not knew about that lock. Looks great. I think that can really hold well. But being so thin it may fall under bolt cutters (good ones that reach 0mm in the jaws - not the joke seen in their clip) - all of the lock fail to the corresponding bolt cutters anyway. So I'd say it's a clever thing - bolt cutters with zero play in them are usually small (and may be too small to cut that Ti), and most overused big ones have a clearance issue on the flat side.
    The only downside I see is the 200$ price tag on it.

    Test: go to hardware store and buy a meter of the heaviest chain they have (15mm thick with welded bridge, etc - something you'd hook on a freight train). Watch closely how they get a large 2m bolt cutter and a simple flex will break it.

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