chefisaac

I know the thought of bicycles paying tolls over bridges is not new but it still makes me pissed off.

Check out the article and video

A good blog post

FenderTL5

blog link is asking for your wordpress password.

Talk about burying the lead. The last comment in the story; the roads/bridge are already paid for. Why can't the car toll be allocated to the safety measures?

myrridin

Why should it? Folks ought to get used to this kind of thing. Since we have persistently underfunded our infrastructure, and we do not have the wherewithal to increase taxation for these items, expect more of these user fee funding sources. This is actually a good thing, make people pay for the infrastructure they use...

chefisaac

https://chefonabicycle.com/2012/09/11/fired-up/

spivonious

As long as the toll money really does go to improving the bikeways, I'd be okay with it. But if a car is $1.50, a bicycle shouldn't be more than a dime. The car is roughly 15x heavier (assuming 3000 pound car, 200 pound cyclist) so the toll should be 1/15 of the car toll.

myrridin

These weight based valuations are ridiculous. The tolls should be based upon whatever it costs to design, construct, and maintain the facilities in question. So for instance if bicycle facilities are added to an existing structure, all of those costs (and a portion of the costs associated with the existing structure) are properly used for calculating the toll a cyclist should be expected to pay.


The weight of a vehicle (any typical car, light truck, or bicycle) have essentially equal impact upon a typical road/structure, ie. none. Weight only becomes an issue when dealing with commercial vehicles such as larger trucks... If you 'take the lane' you are essentially consuming the same portion of the infrastructure as a car...

lawrencehare

Well - don't know about you - but I pay an absolute fortune in taxes and my use of the bike creates almost no wear and tear on the roads, not to mention emissions and the benefit to the environment. This is just another example of trying to grab revenue from any possible source - bicyclists pay no toll now, so they sure have to fix that!

Than how about enforcement? What happens if you have no cash? I have no license plate on my bike, I did not bring my driver's license, will I be made to turn around and go back?

This sucks!

FenderTL5

Second part first: I actually agree with you here, no argument.
You first asked (in response to my comment), Because the stated reason for doing so is safety measures, to prevent cars from hitting bikes and pedestrians.

You and I both know that's probably just a cover story and the motor vehicle tolls will continue anyway.

fietsbob

The toll/passage fee to use the Westport OR ferry to Cathlamet WA,
across the Columbia River, is lower for a bike, than it is if you drive your car..

Same for the Calais France to Dover England Ferry..

call it a users fee if you wish , contributes to maintenance ..

chefisaac

So people who walk should pay a toll too?

chefisaac

Thats a ferry though which is very different and needs fuel to run. And to be frank, the ferry system in Washington State is a mess. Dont get me started on that. Very disappointing when you dive into it.

myrridin

You conveniently ignored the entire remainder of my post. I don't care how much you specifically pay in taxes. What matters is that the politicians (that you and I as citizens are responsible for) have not provided enough funding to maintain the infrastructure we have, much less the additional infrastructure needed for growth for decades. When combined with those same politicians to raise taxes of any kind to pay for that needed infrastructure then we end up with direct user fees (those politicians don't like to call them taxes) such as these tolls.

At least in the case of tolls, those using the infrastructure are being required to pay for it...

myrridin

I have no doubt that such tolls will arrive as soon as the politicians find a way to implement them.

myrridin

You do realize that bridges (and roads) also require regular maintanance. That part of the operating costs of such infrastructure, much like a ferry requires maintanance and fuel as part of its operating cost... And as I have mentioned since the politicians that we (as citizens) are reposible for didn't pay for those needed items directly, they created such 'user fees' as a back door way of getting the tax payers to pay what they wouldn't provide any other way.


Or would you rather these bridges be unmaintained until they fall down. That has already happened in a few places in the US, and over half of the bridges in the US have been deemed structurally insufficient due to years of lack of maintanance...

All because citizens complain about paying for such maintanance and that we let the politicians we elected spend what money they did take on items other than what they should...

noglider 

Road maintenance cost is proportional to the fourth power of axle weight. So the $8,000/year (or whatever) road taxes an 18-wheeler pays are much too low.

RoadTire 

There is the best argument I've heard yet for a lighter bike. Maybe. When trucks are at a weigh station, is the driver required to be in the cab? I'm 5x to 6x heavier than my bike.

gregjones

Yes, along with any passengers.

chefisaac

Oh yes, we agree on this however to toll a cyclist is not the answer. And if it is, we should for sure toll people on foot. But for some reason, I am know deep down inside (and you do too) that a car/truck will tear the road up much faster and harder then a cyclist will.

Ferries require fuel all the time....to get to point a to point b. Bridges do not (with the exception of maintenance but thats off the table) in this point.

But if you really really really really really really look at it, those tolls LINE THE POCKETS OF THE POLITICIANS. Look at the Washington State Ferry system and the bridge tolls in NYC and you will see what I mean.

To end this post, look at the Ben Franklin Bridge that connect NJ and Philly. When they built that bridge, alternative transportation (buses, walkers, riders, trains, metro) where included when they built it. The fact is (and you can just say +1 on this) that when bridges are built, there is no consideration for other forms of transportation.

myrridin

Tolling pedestrians is only a matter of time. It will happen. As to cars causing more damage to roads/bridges you would be incorrect. Weight is a factor, but the curve is not linear. One has to get to really heavy vehicles before the damage even becomes measurable. Most of the damage that occurs to non-commercial facilities are not caused by the users vehicles, but rather evironmental conditions. The one most familiar to folks is the freeze/thaw cycle. Given that FACT, the maintanance resposibilities for the driver of an SUV and a bicycle are the same... Not that I expect anyone on this forum to understand that...


I suspect that having a bridge you require fall down (which has happened a couple of time already) because the 'maintenance was off the table might make you realize that it needs funding. And that will come from tolls in an ever greater proportion as folks continue to stick their heads in the sand concerning the problem.

And when the Rickenbacher bridge was built (you know the one in Florida more than a 1000 miles from you) virtually no one was using 'alternative forms of transportion'. Why on earth would we have spent time/money on facilities that no one would have used?

lawrencehare

Ah - but I do, I care a lot! We all should care how much we pay and where it goes.



Yes - you are right - but it goes further than that in my mind.


First, the degree to which my responsibility extends to elected politicians tends to end after the election. I typically spend quite a bit of time deciding who my representatives are going to be, both locally and nationally, and once they are in place there is little I can do other then write letters, make phone calls and otherwise try to make myself heard. Unfortunately, so are unions, lobbyists and a myriad of other organizations who have a far greater influence than me! Politicians are primarily concerned about getting re-elected and so they pander to the group which is most likely to have the greatest impact - which sure is not me.


That said however organizations here in the DC area like WABA do seem to be having an effect on local bike lanes and other services, which require local administration to take notice and actually DO something! So imho this is the direction to take, join an organization like our WABA and work through them. Dealing with politicians directly is a waste of time, their primary concern is to keep their job.



This is what I disagree with, it is far too often not the case at all, tolls are often abused. Tolls are often enacted to pay for some road or bridge and should be terminated when the payment is complete, yet this does not happen and the money is collected and used for other purposes. We have a local toll road here in Virginia where the price is high - and getting higher - and drivers simply use local roads and avoid the toll road, the traffic can be horrendous in the small local towns as people avoid the toll road - and believe me, the toll represents a substantial cost if one finds one needs to use the road for commuting.


If we could be assured of tolls being used to pay back a loan which was obtained to build some infrastructure, and if we were to be told what the cost was, interest on the loan was, and when the tolls would pay back the loan, and THEN the toll would be eliminated or reduced to cover maintenance - that would make sense. In other words it is a targeted temporary tax to pay for some piece of infrastructure and the people using it make the payments.


But it won't happen, when a politician gets its hands on a source of revenue it is most reluctant to lose it. And as the idea of budgeting revenue - our senate is a grand example - is anathema to politics, then I think we the people should make sure that the money the government gets already is spent responsibly - and taxes are intended for infrastructure amongst other things - before allowing them to take hard-earned money using other methods.

fietsbob

the little people pick up the tab in many ways when the posh -privileged ones
buy favors from the politicians, who go begging for campaign money
to spend on TV ads.

myrridin

I didn't say I didn't care how much I spent on taxes, but rather I didn't care what you spent. Further, let me be clear, what you have paid is irrelevant to how you have allowed that money to be spent. And it hasn't been spent on the maintanance of the needed infrastructure--which has been chronically underfunded for decades.

You may like to believe so, but in a republic (or democracy), the people are responsible for the actions of their representatives. You may neve have been in this situation in your personal life but responsibility often falls on those who do not have direct control of the actions that cause an event...

In my opinion such organizations (ALL OF THEM) are the problem. People and their representatives spend entirely too much time/money on their personal interests rather than the interests of the whole...

I can not speak for the entire US, especially since far too many areas are rampant with corruption, but in the areas for which I have been involved in the creation of toll facilities. Those funds are actual user fees in the sense that the politicians can not use them for any project as they can when they place the funds in the general fund (such as what they do with gas taxes)... Indeed, special quasi-governmental agencies (toll authorities) are set-up whose sole perview is the infrastructure for which they are receiving the toll funding...

The tolling is designed to pay for far more than the simple cost of the initial construction. Indeed, given the lifespan of such infrastructure, by the time such debts are paid off, the maintanance is so high that reconstruction is often the cheaper option. Further, given the overall lack of funding for the entire system, it is now common practice to include tolled and non-tolled facilities in the same funding system and using the toll funding to help pay for the maintenance (and sometime even contruction) of non-tolled facilities.

Again, all of the toll agencies I am familiar with (which is far from all--see previous comment about rampant corruption) are managed without direct access from the politicians--which is different from every other such funding source where the politicians treated it (with the voters tacit approval) as a part of the general fund--spending the surpluses on other projects.

For instance, we as a nation, have the infrastructure problem we do, largely because the tremendous surpluses that were generated by the initial gas taxes were spent on military and social spending rather than being saved for the KNOWN, PREDICTABLE, NEEDED maintanance and upkeep of that infrastructure for which the taxes were obtained...

chefisaac

According to the FATC in Florida who tracks alternative transportation in Florida, in 1947 there was 34% of people who used different forms of alternative transportation. In 1946, it was 32% in 1945 it was 35% and in 1944 it was 34%.

In 1947, the bridge was built. So, for some reason, I have a heck of a hard time believing you when you say there was no one using alternative transportation.

And I am not sure what the 1000 miles away from me has to do with it. But good for you for making a smart @ss remark. Bravo.

Second, regarding maintenance of bridges. You took my "off the table" in wrong context but to be frank, its not worth wasting time to explain. More importantly, bridge maintenance is required for two reasons. One is structure and one is road. There is a lot of reasons why but some includes overall weight that the bridge bears and also use. For example, look at any road where cars drive. You will see chipping, ruts, etc. Made but cars driving over them. The dips are made my over loaded trucks.

Now lets be frank, when have you seen a sidewalk or side of the road with the same problems do to walkers or cyclists? You have not.

I do agree, roads (bridges) have the issue of freezing and expanding which leads to cracking, especially in the east.

Lastly, lets take into account that cars CAUSE ALL OF THE NEED FOR ROAD MAINTENANCE. Fix the road or dont, I dont care. Why? Because I can pick a road bike or mountain bike. 23 mm tires or fat tires to get from point a to point b. Screwed up road? Doesnt matter to me! But what the heck do I know? I am only a chef that rides on two wheels.

chefisaac

And lets face it, toll money does not 100% go to fixing the bridges, roads, etc. I believe it was back 5 or so years ago that politicians in NYC got busted for lining their pockets with toll money.

myrridin

Interesting numbers you quote. I suspect them for two reasons. First a google search didn't turn up a reference to what FATC might stand for. The closest I found was the "Florida Antique Tackle Collectors, Inc.". Second numbers from the 1940's are not relevant. That bridge was reconstructed in the early 1980's a time when there was less than a few % on average in Florida and nearly no 'alternative transportation' users in that area...

Wasn't intended to be a smart aleck response but simply to convey that you had no real experience with the area or why such tolls might be needed.

I find it interesting that you find yourself so certain about what causes the maintance needs of such structures. Particularly since you are completely mistaken. As I mentioned weight is only a major contributor for large commercial vehicles. The effect of a typical passenger vehicle or a bicycle have essentially the same impact--NONE. And in the case of this particular structure two environmental factors are critical. One is bridge scour--look it up. The other is weathering causing wear on exposed faces that can compromise the structural steel components of the bridge. Unlike yourself, I spent a career as a transportation planner and can assure you that I am correct on those factors and your mistake about the cause for needed repairs...

Actually I see such all the time, and find it hard to believe that you yourself have not witnesses numerous sidewalks with cracks and disjointed levels (caused by thermal heave not pedestrians weight...)

They have those issues everywhere, not just in the east.

Again your are incorrect as to the "CAUSE ALL OF THE NEED FOR ROAD MAINTENANCE". And while you might be able to get by without roads (though I do remember a number of posts on this forum about how it was bicyclists that pushed for modern paved roads...), you certainly would have trouble pedalling across a waterway because the bridge had collapsed...